Dracothjay Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Hi guys, always wanted a goat army, but the 2 problems I got are... THeres just too much painting Theres too many units to buy. so, I was considering warherds as a stand alone army, maybe include a brey shaman to add some mystic shields in. does anyone play warherds? If so, how do they fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I think they are kinda a one trick pony. Buff, charge, fight...but they would work great as allies to their smaller kin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozokus Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Dracothjay said: does anyone play warherds? If so, how do they fair? I played them a little bit while they had a formation (which doesn't exist anymore now) It was a glass canon army. You deal an enormous amount of damamge while having 5+ save models. They rely a lot on the command ability of the Doombull and you can only have one. It is a very cool army but gets boring with time as you only have to charge the ennemy and punch things. No trick no shenanigans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracothjay Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 Yeah, it's as I thought. However, is definitely make them my main army then throw some breyherd allies in to so more bodies. The cygors and gorghons as a huge asset in warherds. They still are a huge threat and might take the focus off the bulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 6 hours ago, kozokus said: I played them a little bit while they had a formation (which doesn't exist anymore now) The formation should have points (with other compendium options) on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popisdead Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 15 minutes ago, decker_cky said: The formation should have points (with other compendium options) on Saturday. Sadly the original formation had the "minotaur" keyword which GW dropped about a year ago maybe? So people started calling it "illegial" which was annoying as really GW has pushed for people to make the game their own. I kept using it an really, outside Masters tournaments it shouldn't be an issue. I would prefer people not to speak down on something 99% of the gaming community wouldn't have an issue with. I've heard the Bloodscorch formation doesn't have points in GHB2017 which is a let down as I really liked playing it. I've played pure Warherd and liked it but the pros and cons have been debated already. One tidbit I picked up was a guy taking Scarbrand, 30 Gors for BL and then filing the rest with Warherd. If I did that I would for sure take a Plague Priest as the +1 to wound just helps them so much. The Gors also give you enough bodies to cover needing objectives taken. When Minotaurs hit, they sure do hit like a brick truck. Dmg 3 and Rend -2 in big numbers with bonus attacks on 4s starts to get really scary particularly with Lord of War or the ability to get +1 to hit on 5s. I used to run the formation twice giving me 6 x 3 Bullgor units and 2 Ghorgons. Ghorgons can either suck arrows or roll like beasts. I own 3 and I loved them in 8th so I'm trying to flood my table with them. I've yet to see proof a Cygor does anything other than take up a lot of points and die in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozokus Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 The main problem i had with my warherd army is the high randomness oh having 4+ to hit with your weapons with 3 dammage. Some times nobody dies, sometimes 10 paladins eat the dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bueno Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 i know @Paul Buckler was playing the formation from the realmgate wars books that let you mark them as Khorne and then add in some of the bloodbound heros for buffs. list like this could be fun (depending on new points) and look good, especially if you convert the bloodbound characters to look more beastmeny. fits the theme too as in the old fluff ungor would follow Bullgors around. just a shame you can't ally with bloodbound else you could count the bullgor as battleline and then lose the ungor for another 3 bullgor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I say use them as allies until they get a battalion back cuz like everyone else said....one trick pony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popisdead Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 3 hours ago, Bueno said: just a shame you can't ally with bloodbound else you could count the bullgor as battleline and then lose the ungor for another 3 bullgor. I think the shame is Bullgors aren't BL if a doombull is general. I don't want my Breastlord to be my general for Brayherd but I do for my Warherd. Then I could max out with 18 bullgors (3 x 6 or 6x 3) and add in more support. Cause even 3 Bullgors with a Ghorgon can do damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tupavko Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I've been a long time Beastmen player since 5th edition... Fell in love with minos, since then, so for me AoS Warherds are kind of a hearthbraking strory. In my personal opinion (and where I play, so don't consider it a universal rule), Warherds, especially minos and doombulls are pure rubish, saddly... If you compare a Warherd army in a 1000ps-1500pts and 2000pts game they field a very low number of models/units compared to the other factions 8and low amount of wounds), have a really bad survivavbility odds with just 4wounds and a bad armour save, and suprisingly deal a fairly mid range, even low amount of damage compared to their counterparts in other armies. (I compare them to Arcanites since they are mostly beastmen too) A Doombull, is a lot weaker than an Ogroid Thaumaturge in HtH and the other guy is a mage too (with a nasty spell on his own besides the bolt and the shield), besides being capable of healing himself, and gets nice Tzeentch artifacts and general traits perfectly synergic with the army, fot 40pts more... Not worth the points. Minos/Bullgors on the other hand have only 4 wounds and a save roll of 5+, unless you field them with shields but then you renounce on hitting the hardest you can, which is the only viable tactic for Warherds. Consider that at the moment a basic Minotaur unit (180pts) with a great axe has less damage output of a Tzaagor unit (180pts) kitted with 4 greatblades, but the second one, gets to run and charge, has more wounds (20 to 12), a better save roll, a mortal wound chance and a lot of synergies... the more you buy the better the tzzangors are compared to Bullgors... Overall Warherds at the moment are a matter of love You play them because you love cows, or you're nostalgic of good old days when minos were overcosted melee deathdealers, the very true glass cannon... Today in my opinion they are a glass sling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Assuming the bullgor formation is considered amended to require bullgors rather than minotaurs (and if it has points, nobody reasonable should refuse to allow it), I think bullgors can make a MUCH stronger list in the new GHB (depending on the power and utility of the chaos allegiance traits, abilities and magic items). The formation with units of 6 won't be far from 1600 pts (1400 pts + formation). That leaves 400 pts for allies, including a wizard and chaff (ie, what the bullgor list is sorely lacking). It could be a surprisingly solid build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popisdead Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 3 hours ago, tupavko said: In my personal opinion (and where I play, so don't consider it a universal rule), Warherds, especially minos and doombulls are pure rubish, saddly... I disagree. I would say that are hard to use but the dmg output is high on Bullgors and even Doombulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popisdead Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 2 hours ago, decker_cky said: Assuming the bullgor formation is considered amended to require bullgors rather than minotaurs No it won't be which is annoying. It was a PDF formation and GW has moved away from them. I am hoping they do give us one similar cause I used to take 2 of them at 2000 points and throw my 3-man units plus a ghorgon at stuff. Or,.. 2 3-man and 2 Ghorgons ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I don't really care if GW amends the PDF. If GW gives the formation points, like they did for the last GHB, the assumption is that the entry has some meaning. No reasonable TO will refuse to allow it (but check ahead of time, obviously). The formation will likely cost more than 1000 pts now, with formation costs increasing. The ghorgon dropped by 20, but the formation will likely increase by 50-100 pts. If there's bigger targets on the table, the 6 man units will have more utility too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamp_Toe Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 They should just roll them back into the Brayherd and end it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tupavko Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 59 minutes ago, Popisdead said: I disagree. I would say that are hard to use but the dmg output is high on Bullgors and even Doombulls. I disagree... I think they are not hard to us at all. Actually they are as simple as it gets: go forward and smash things and I say that mainly because - have no special rules (no dice pools, teleport, specialist units etc) - have avarage movement, so not manoeuvrable - no reliable shooting (only cygor not that great) - no magic - no serious HtH specialist as I said a Doombull is weaker than most CtC heroes even human sized ones... His 3A -2rend damage3 are just not enough... - no chaff, nor any unit capable of holding the line/preventing the opponent from charging you, since both doombull & bullgors go down too easely, with the general dying first because of magic/shooting, and then the damage output is even worse... - no body count at all but no elites either 3 minos with GW for 180pts deal 7 attacks that hit at 4+ (3,5) that wound at 3+ (2,3) , that's something like 7 wounds!!!!! That is rubbish for a HtH specialist/glass cannon single minded army that must win battles in combat, cause has no shooting, no magic (maybe a few shamans, as allies but it's never gonna be overwhelming) and no bodycount for objective hunt (like breyherds) For the same price you get 3 Tzaangor Enlightened they have pretty much the same damage output (a bit better), but a movement range of 16, and better synergies. Tzaangor enlightened get 7 attacks too at 4+, then 3+ but hey are rend -1 and damage 2... But then they get 3 vicious beaks attacks, and 3d3 4+/3+ -1rend damage d3 attacks from the disks. Unless I am missing something, but I just don't see how they can be used in other ways... 9 minutes ago, Swamp_Toe said: They should just roll them back into the Brayherd and end it there. Or they need a warscroll change... at the moment there is no reason for a Breyherd player to take Gorbulls... bestigors are better at fighting, even gors in large numbers, chariots are better at stopping, hunting smaller things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popisdead Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 That's all well and good but there is a lot pure allegiance that suffers worse. And Warscroll changes won't help. You can easily get chaff with Ungors and for 120 points the Doombull is good. And fine, let's just go with you're entirely right (not being an ass or sarcastic). Now what? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 @tupavko Are you missing the free attacks that bullgors generate? With the formation and/or a doombull general, they have generates way more damage (my experience against bullgor armies is that they just delete units they're able to charge through damage + battleshock). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tupavko Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Popisdead said: That's all well and good but there is a lot pure allegiance that suffers worse. And Warscroll changes won't help. You can easily get chaff with Ungors and for 120 points the Doombull is good. And fine, let's just go with you're entirely right (not being an ass or sarcastic). Now what? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Oh you're right, there are actually worse cases :D... As for your question, we do nothing... Someone asked how Warherds do these days and I tried to give an answer. I don't think there any solution to the Warherd problem from my perspective, so if I want to play beastmen, I just go for a 100% Breyherd army, or even Arcanites since they are beastmen too I didn't want to sound offensive or sarcastic, it actually makes me sad thta warherds are that bad (from my perspective) since I've always loved minos but, AoS is just not for them. 53 minutes ago, decker_cky said: @tupavko Are you missing the free attacks that bullgors generate? With the formation and/or a doombull general, they have generates way more damage (my experience against bullgor armies is that they just delete units they're able to charge through damage + battleshock). They do with a 6... not something you can "count on"... It can become a 5+ with a Doombull, but let's be honest, any half-normal opponent will target that doombull with all of his shooting/magic, until he dies and he will so, that meager 5+, goes back to a 6+ Against Sylvanaeth, Snow Ogres, Arcanites or Kharadron overlords a Werherd basically loses on turn 1 or 2, depends who starts... The battalion does give them MW on charge that is good, but needs a keyword fix... This doesn't mean that someone who likes Warherds should not play them, but since Dracothjay asked an opinion, I gave my personal vision of this sad story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 BTW, if the Bullgor Stampede isn't allowed, I'd argue there's no reason to go bullgors over dragon ogors (aside from just liking minotaurs and having the models). Cheaper and much more resilient, and not much less hitty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 There was a very deliberate decision to kill off the old Battalions. Many of them were really OP. Don't rely on TOs to resurrect them nearly a year later. In terms of target saturation I think Warherd are solid especially with pew pew and Battalions nerfed.. I've played against them twice at events - both close tough games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracothjay Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 If warherds was your main force and doombull being your general, would a compliment if breyherds allies make a warherds list viable? Maybe have some bestigors/ungors supported by a brey shaman make the list a little more punchy and better for objective capturing? Bullgors are warherds BATTLELINE so fill up on bullhorn BATTLELINE then get some breyherd allies in. what r your views? heres a list just playing with ideas. Doombull - general great brey shaman - ally bullgors - greataxes - battleline bullgora - greataxes - battleline 20 gors-ally gorghon. i don't know at 1000 points what the ally cap is, but this is 960 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tupavko Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Well with these last updates thing got even trickier. Playing a Warherd army gives you nothing specific so it's like playing plain Chaos, so i would stick to that, and if you're looking for allies i would search elsewhere cause breyherds just got nerfed (no Gorthor, no BSB, no furious breyherd) as Warherds too cause Bullgor Stampede doesn't exist anymore, so bye bye mortal wounds (since minotaurs were already so killy with those 2 attacks ) I would rather put some Arcanites into Warherds as allies than breyherds and play a Chaos Allience rather than a Wargore one. Arcanites are still beastmen (for the fluff) and you can find what you lack: tzaangors for numbers, shamans on disk for magic, and skyfires for shooting. Adding Breyherd to Wargore certainly does solve the bodycount problem, but gors need synergies otherwise they are a mediocre 4+/4+ 1A footsoldier and you don't have them with the Warherds, you could go with the ungor raiders to add some shooting for example and a shaman maybe, but don't expect miracles. To be honest, this is just my personal opinion, Breyherds and Warherds just got a lot worse with this GH17 update. Don't get me wrong, if you like them go with it, but I'm just expressing wohat I feel about my favorite army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranect Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 I personally don't think the warherds are as bad as people like to say. I was running 15 bullgors, 2 doombulls, 30 gors, a ghorgon and skarbrand and was doing just fine. I have yet to lose against KO, I am able to handle most stormcast stuff, taken out some skaven, and if I had known how mourngols worked before the battle I'd have beat the 3 mourngol list too. For da boyz ill be going pure warherd since I want to be fully painted and don't want to paint gors but that list is a doombull, 3 units of 6 bulls, 3 ghorgons, and a cygor to kill and unbind wizards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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