Richelieu Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Since the reroll charge rolls of 1 Blood Rite will be active for most of the game and the math is a bit icky, I thought I'd provide a chart of the probabilities of succeeding on a charge at each range. 12" = 3.8% 11" = 11.3% 10" = 22.7% 9" = 37.8% 8" = 56.7% 7" = 72.9% 6" = 85.3% 5" = 94.0% 4" = 98.8% 3" = 99.9% 2" = 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxPounder Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 7 inch charge goes from 56% to 73% which is a big increase. Even an 8 inch charge should happen more than half the time. And who said reroll of 1s was useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoollyMammoth Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 The same unit shoots with the same skill, using the same bows ... but they lose the ability to strike the heart because its not "the shooting phase" ? If there was a reason why their arrows might suddenly go limp, that's fine but this is just a rule-writing s crew up. Looks like I'll have to skip release and wait for the FAQ before investing in this army. I don't want to get too excited for an army that might fall by the wayside due to writing mistakes compounded by FAQ nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekrund Oath Splitters Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Morathis command ability may be better on the heartrenders then instead of the heartseekers. Double shooting rend 2 javelins for a turn is just like having a bunch of skyhooks without the multiple damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said: Morathis command ability may be better on the heartrenders then instead of the heartseekers. Double shooting rend 2 javelins for a turn is just like having a bunch of skyhooks without the multiple damage Wouldn't work. They are still in the sky during the hero phase when Morathi would use the command ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said: The same unit shoots with the same skill, using the same bows ... but they lose the ability to strike the heart because its not "the shooting phase" ? If there was a reason why their arrows might suddenly go limp, that's fine but this is just a rule-writing s crew up. Looks like I'll have to skip release and wait for the FAQ before investing in this army. I don't want to get too excited for an army that might fall by the wayside due to writing mistakes compounded by FAQ nerfs. That's an overreaction if I ever saw one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekrund Oath Splitters Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Richelieu said: Wouldn't work. They are still in the sky during the hero phase when Morathi would use the command ability. Owwww.... brainfarted... it's late haha!! Forgot it was in the November phase, some reason I was like, yeah it's in the hero phase that'd be cool!! Well still holding out hope for the heartseekers having good range and Atleast a rend. If not I'll use the blood sisters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecktron Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 36 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said: The same unit shoots with the same skill, using the same bows ... but they lose the ability to strike the heart because its not "the shooting phase" ? If there was a reason why their arrows might suddenly go limp, that's fine but this is just a rule-writing s crew up. Looks like I'll have to skip release and wait for the FAQ before investing in this army. I don't want to get too excited for an army that might fall by the wayside due to writing mistakes compounded by FAQ nerfs. I believe its intentional. Some of the "shoot in your hero phase" battalions have been too strong before (Kunnin-rukk, the Stormcast one) so they toned down their extra shooting power when used together with Morathis command ability. A good background explanation would be that they have no time to aim properly as they have to shoot twice the arrow in the same amount of time. Edit: a word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Anyway if they have - 3 attacks each - more than 1 damage or - 1 rend Then Morathi CA is still crazy strong and would be hands down broken with mortal wounds on top of that or if there are any ways to get some kind of hit bonuses (and there is already re roll of 1s to hit from turn 3 and possible damned terrain) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 21 minutes ago, DantePQ said: Anyway if they have - 3 attacks each - more than 1 damage or - 1 rend Then Morathi CA is still crazy strong and would be hands down broken with mortal wounds on top of that or if there are any ways to get some kind of hit bonuses (and there is already re roll of 1s to hit from turn 3 and possible damned terrain) and the Melusai models are sooooooooo cooooooooooooool!!!! I seriously am hardly concerned with the rules because of how amazing these models are. I may just make a nearly 100% elite army of snakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 @Richelieu Indeed, I am forcing myself to wait for the book, give it a serious look and then decided whether I want to collect them or not. But how cool the models make it very hard for my wallet to resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgecoc Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 The book is gonna be my second purchase since I already have the Blood Coven box, waiting to build it after reading the battletome. Definitely getting all the new units eventually. Should be good for some kit bashing with Dark Eldar. Also never noticed before today, those harpies have tails. Great models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhsellwood Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Looking very cool at this point, and I can't comment on the potential of how good the army will be. However from a pure design point of view I think we can see that the rules are aimed at resolving some of the previous limitations of the Daughters of Khaine: Need to cluster around Cauldron to get a decent save, making the army very reliant on that, and making the core build very Witch Aelf heavy (limited space around Cauldron, they gain biggest benefit, so natural choice). Answered by making a 6+ ignore standard across the army - cauldron of blood may still boost Witch Aelves and work well with them, but at least you can run 10 model units of Sisters of Slaughter and they aren't falling over to a stiff breeze Lack of shooting. Obvious solutions there, but interesting to see what i think will be quick harassing shooters (flying ones) and main line units (Melusai) Lack of speed. Units that both move fast and can deep strike, along with an infantry unit that is likely around 8" move (based on Bloodwrack stats) Lack of access to monsters. Answered two fold - Morathi along with the Iron Avatar of Khaine. Will the army work as a whole? Too early to tell, but I am excited to read the book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burf Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 10 hours ago, Payce said: Good to know I'm not the only one feeling this. First and foremost, allegiance. It's very obvious that we're being made out to be a late-game army, which kind of doesn't sit well with me. DoK are fast, we're fragile and weak, we're a glass cannon. To be at our very best once the cannon is shot seems... kind of counter-productive? Getting a Deathless Minions helps, certainly, and it being army-wide and not tied to hero proximity is a godsend (I hope, pray and beg that Cauldrons or Shrines will somehow increase the effectivity of this, though it seems unlikely), but I still wonder if it's enough. My thoughts of shapechanging Morathi is well-documented elsewhere (suffice to say, I think it looks like an absolutely terrible design decision), and the fact that her command ability is in "foot-form" only makes me cringe. The model is very definitely be in the 500+ points ballpark, and when you look at her profile and the potential damage output compared to say, a 400 point Durthu, she looks terribly underwhelming. I can see if the transformation fully "recharges" her wounds to 12 that she might be a late-game beast (keep "foot-form for 3 or so turns, use the command ability to maximize damage from your snake archers turn one, Witches turn two and three) that can change into super-saiyan in turn four and clean table, however, we all know how vulnerable everything is to sniping in this game. Morathi has potential, but depending on her points cost and full warscroll, she might well be underwhelming. The preview did little to ease concerns. The snake-ladies looks... well. Awesome models, again a very underwhelming preview. The picture suggests they come in increments of five (like Judicators) rather than three (Skyfires, Kurnoths), and the rules suggest they will be more like Judies when it comes to combat (yes, I'm focussing more on the archers here). If they have even two shots each, MWs on a 6 is basically a mortal wound and a half in a round of shooting - hardly impressive. That it's also limited to the shooting face is a blow (no synergy with Morathi here), making the archer snakes look by far like the lesser valuable option of the two. Similarly, the melee option seems to be a case where they have a glaive AND a crystal touch, suggesting only five rolls to hit for the MW - again, not a reliable source on 6's. Harpie-girls, however, looks amazing. And particularly, the shooties. Their deep strike-and-rend is midbogglingly good, but what really strikes me is the 50% chance to fully redeploy afterwards. I'll be excited to see if there are any ways to tactically improve this, or if there's any synergy with command traits, artifacts and command abilities. Speaking of which, I'll be very excited to see what non-Morathi Hero choice we have. How the new Cauldron looks, if Hellebron on foot (who's appeared in a few pictures) is just a Hag with a sword or a whole new warscroll, if the Medusae are indeed heroes now, how the Avatar works. It seems clear that we won't get any new Hero models outside of Morathi, but seeing what they do with the existing range of models (and if the Sorceress, who's figure does exist and fit in well with the DoK aestetic, makes an appearance). All in all, the previews leaves me disappointed and fearing we'll be pretty far off the competitive top tier, but hopefully we'll find a niche spot in the meta. Every time. Every time new previews for things come out people immediately start talking like this. You've made value judgements on units based on literally 1 rule and vague descriptors. You don't know their place in the competitive meta from a hole in the ground. You have no idea how good the melusai or furies are, you don't know the spells available, the heroes available, or the additional allegiances that have been mentioned, what the cauldron/bloodwrack shrine do or even the actual statlines of the units they've actually shown. You might as well be writing about meta strength of the atlantean-cthulu aelves. You have almost the same amount of information. It's pure nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoollyMammoth Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 5 hours ago, Gecktron said: I believe its intentional. Some of the "shoot in your hero phase" battalions have been too strong before (Kunnin-rukk, the Stormcast one) so they toned down their extra shooting power when used together with Morathis command ability. A good background explanation would be that they have no time to aim properly as they have to shoot twice the arrow in the same amount of time. If it was intentional, and it was supposed to represent that they "have no time to shoot" then it could be simply that they can shoot at -1 to hit in the hero phase. This is something you can work around. Them losing the ability to do mortals because "its not the shooting phase" looks a lot more on par with a typical GW s crew up than an intentional way to pre-nerf the ability so its not too strong. The whole thing is contingent on Morathi being in 'elf' form, which your opponent has full interaction with - if this shooting ability is so good, you can simply shoot her to make her hulk out, and lose the extra shooting ability completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaMage Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I'm curious as to what our other spellcaster options besides Morathi are going to be. I don't remember seeing any new heroes in the videos or pictures, besides the Avatar of Khaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekrund Oath Splitters Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I reckon the Medusa will become a spell caster. From the world that was they were sorceress' that were cursed by there god of desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traitor Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Yeah, only thing that worries me is the lack of hero options, maybe they’ll turn Hellebron into a new character, as well as the medusa and the avatar, but I’m starting to doubt we’ll see much else, as I think it would have already been previewed, so probably no tenebral shard after all... Otherwise very hyped for this army, wish I had more time so that I could finish the DoK models I already have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aranthir Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 So far hero options are very limited and somehow throwing a lot of models from Shrines into hero options feels forced. Tenebrael would be ultra cool as a hero option but I guess he is waiting for Malerion . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Aranthir said: So far hero options are very limited and somehow throwing a lot of models from Shrines into hero options feels forced. Tenebrael would be ultra cool as a hero option but I guess he is waiting for Malerion . I look forward to todays preview (as they might say who are Spellcasters in DoK) also there is possibility that they are not showing everything so there is still slim chance for Tanabrael, Sorceresses or maybe some newkit hero. Problem with Medusa is that she is : - as for know quite expensive as an spellcasters(assuming she is one) - harder to hide = easier to snipe out Also we have Warlocks and they got better, their spell is awesome and they 6++ save and possible re-rolls of 1 run rolls so they are a little more mobile. I hope they will got some special rule or little point drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekrund Oath Splitters Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I would the love following as a list of heroes to have: Morathi Hag Queen Death Hag Hag Sorceress Blood wrack medusa The avatar of khaine will most likely be a behemoth, he is just a golem powered by morathis shadow magic I presume, not a physical avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaMage Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I suspect that the Cauldron of Blood might be changing significantly to allow us to play most of the stuff that usually goes on it as separate heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, DantePQ said: - as for know quite expensive as an spellcasters(assuming she is one) If the points stay the same it's not that bad right? The chaos sorcerer for example is 160 points, on the low end the Darkling coven sorceress is 80. So it's right in the middle. But we don't know points nor if she is a spellcaster 6 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said: The avatar of khaine will most likely be a behemoth, he is just a golem powered by morathis shadow magic I presume, not a physical avatar. Ooh, that would be cool. For me it feels most likely it's going to be a terrain/allegiance piece. Killing near it will give it bonuses or something like that. I really hope so because I love those things that create unique gameplay of a faction. (wyldwoods, blood tithe, gnarlwood, destiny dice). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaMage Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 "Some entries like the Cauldron of Blood and Bloodwrack Shrine have been reinvented to properly reflect the mysterious and shadowy powers of their patron. You can even field the Khainite statue that usually stands atop the Shrine as a separate unit, representing an iron Avatar of Khaine." https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/18/shadow-queen-unveiled/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 So Avatar for sure is a unit not piece of terrain - cool. Forgeworld one with spear is coming to my army for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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