Mdels coming 'Back to life' - Re-enforcment

[Paul Buckler]

For example Skaar Bloodwrath.

 

When he comes back to life is he a 'new' model or just and old unit that returns.  So would you have to set aside points for him.

 

Same for Death units using the ring, do they have to have points set aside?

 

 

 

[Stefan]

But I take it that the skeleton standard and the courtiers mustering (not exeeding starting models of course) is still for free, can't find anything in the new FAQ that says otherwise.

 

[BaldoBeardo]

Same argument was used for the ring. GW have ruled that the ring costs points. They haven't errata'd it to change the wording, so that implies that any other rule with the same wording also costs points.
Whether the rule is printed on the warscroll or not is irrelevant.

FAQ also states no rule implies meaning on any other.
That in mind, all the FAQ confirms is that unpointed upgrades that provide resurrection do cost reinforcement points.

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[Nico]

Quote

what are these changes i dont see anything different from the death book??? or were these changes some time ago??

They were some time ago. The PDF version was amended, which makes it somewhat clearer.

[mmimzie]

6 hours ago, Nico said:

By the way the Wight King banner has been amended in the new Warscroll (Death Battletome and probably the App) to fix some of the problems in the rule.

Happy New Year all!

what are these changes i dont see anything different from the death book??? or were these changes some time ago??

[KHHaunts]

27 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Yeah, if it actually says "not slain", then it doesn't cost reinforcement points, but you take excess wounds after. Same deal as a Wight King's Infernal Standard (I'm looking at the compendium, don't have the book). It's a rule that prevents you from ever being slain in the first place.

If it says "if slain, set up again", then it's summoning a replacement — it costs points, but excess wounds are lost (and the replacement model won't be your general, won't have any buffs or nerfs that were on the old model, etc.)

Seed of Rebirth would fall under the "not slain" category, imo, since it heals you, and a slain model can't be healed, so it must trigger before you would be slain.

Flamespyre Phœnix is clearly a "set up again", though.

Similar the green knight

The only thing about Tyrion that is a bit poorly worded is that it says "the first time tyrion is slain . . . he is not slain"

Was he slain or wasent he??

[Squirrelmaster]

Yeah, if it actually says "not slain", then it doesn't cost reinforcement points, but you take excess wounds after. Same deal as a Wight King's Infernal Standard (I'm looking at the compendium, don't have the book). It's a rule that prevents you from ever being slain in the first place.

If it says "if slain, set up again", then it's summoning a replacement — it costs points, but excess wounds are lost (and the replacement model won't be your general, won't have any buffs or nerfs that were on the old model, etc.)

Seed of Rebirth would fall under the "not slain" category, imo, since it heals you, and a slain model can't be healed, so it must trigger before you would be slain.

Flamespyre Phœnix is clearly a "set up again", though.

[mmimzie]

3 hours ago, KHHaunts said:

yes. the handbook Says fairly clearly:

reinforcements to existing units dont cost points.

New units do.

So undead banners and Wanderer spell weaver unique spell dont cost points.

Summoning and rebirth artifacts (possibly with the exception of tyrion im still unsure about him) do cost

Tyrion and the hellpit abomination should thier abilities work. I'd say dont need reinforcement points as it says the model is not slain. I think the same as the seed of rebirth.

Rule wise the reinforcement points rule says its to replace destroyed stuff if you were never slain than you were never destroyed. 

I think these are fair because if you look at wound allocation it stops once your slain, and thus if your not slain wounds can continue to be applied to the model, and as such you'll end up dying any way. 

[KHHaunts]

3 hours ago, Stefan said:

But I take it that the skeleton standard and the courtiers mustering (not exeeding starting models of course) is still for free, can't find anything in the new FAQ that says otherwise.

 

yes. the handbook Says fairly clearly:

reinforcements to existing units dont cost points.

New units do.

So undead banners and Wanderer spell weaver unique spell dont cost points.

Summoning and rebirth artifacts (possibly with the exception of tyrion im still unsure about him) do cost

[Squirrelmaster]

Yeah, I think of these a bit like the "Magic: The Gathering" rules, where some rules are "triggered" (if X happens, then do Y), others are "replacement" (if X would happen, instead do Y). In this case I think Tyrion's rule is a "replacement" effect, so he isn't actually slain because the rule negates/replaces it.

[Squirrelmaster]

28 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

but the model isn't removed from play. any other unit wiped out is. 

Same argument was used for the ring. GW have ruled that the ring costs points. They haven't errata'd it to change the wording, so that implies that any other rule with the same wording also costs points.

Whether the rule is printed on the warscroll or not is irrelevant.

[Arkiham]

but the model isn't removed from play. any other unit wiped out is. 

 

before the model is removed from play the death effect comes into play preventing the removal from play because of the ability on their warscroll. 

it's not a new unit as it hasn't been removed from play, just the battlefield.

[Squirrelmaster]

The ring is not "free", it uses up 1 artefact slot — which is as much a part of the game balance as points costs. If you take it, you aren't taking the Tomb Blade, the Cursed Book, or whatever. Everyone gets one Artefact (plus an extra one for each warscroll battalion), all of which provide bonuses and don't cost points.

Has it occurred to you that maybe the other units with a "rebirth" ability don't have that ability included in their points cost, because GW already knew that you would have to set aside reinforcement points in order to use it anyway? I hope you wouldn't claim that any other model can use a "summoning" ability for free, on the basis that it's already included in the cost of the model using the ability.

[Superpotts]

Unique characters can not be taken more than once. By that logic they are "the same unit" rather than a new one. 

Characters that can take the ring are, by definition, not unique. There is a nice resolution. 

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Expecting everyone to play by the same rules is hardly "throwing toys out the pram".

- A Death player who never used the ring anyway.

The ring is free. There is literally no cost to it. Similar to how the Balewind was before, everyone moaned about that, so they added points.

The other units who have the rebirth, gotta pay for them.

 

It's not like anyone ever takes the models anyway.

[Squirrelmaster]

8 hours ago, Arkiham said:

No mention of any other unit requiring points to resummon it, death players were more than happy to have the free rebirth for however long they had it, now suddenly they've lost it they throw the toys out the pram ?

Expecting everyone to play by the same rules is hardly "throwing toys out the pram".

- A Death player who never used the ring anyway.

[Arkiham]

tbh, they had the chance to include the other units when they wrote the FAQ,

they did not. 

the only thing they clearly state is. 
Q: Does the Ring of Immortality require reinforcement points to return the slain bearer to the table? A: Yes.

No mention of any other unit requiring points to resummon it, death players were more than happy to have the free rebirth for however long they had it, now suddenly they've lost it they throw the toys out the pram ? 

the removed from play condition which normally takes affect on models is prevented due to this special ability. until this ability cannot be triggered the model is still in play.

[Aggesut]

It's pretty straight forward really; units that are slain, eg removed from the board completely, would invoke reinforcements, eg. also Characters and single-model units with the wording 'slain' included in their reanimation rule, as the unit is removed from the board. If the entire unit is not removed from the board, eg. 20 of 40 zombies in a unit dies or 1 of 3 Kurnoth Hunters, it does not invoke reinforcements rule to reanimate them.

in short, is the unit removed completely? If yes, reinforcement costs, if no, no reinforcement costs.

[Rhellion]

3 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Heck they've been sided to back up how bonesplitter hero phase combat works, and other such rules. How is it possible that this ring question could be any different. 

Agree with all of this. I did before the FAQ, and the FAQ further reinforces it.

They all cost points.

[chord]

1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

I would say that it's more like:

• Ring of Immortality - uses reinforcement points.
• Abilities that aren't the Ring of Immortality and are functionally similar - don't use reinforcement points.

It's a balance driven change in response to the clamor about how frustrating Death are to play against.

Agreed. If it's intended as a blanket, strange single example to pick.

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I agree with that.

[mmimzie]

As i postulated previously, all such abilities cost points via the general hand book. The generals hand book is and always has been clear on this. It is an FAQ and FAQ's answer questions on rules and how they work. Erata's make fundamental changes to how abilities work and are specific. 

In the generals hand book it says:

All three of the abilities in question: the ring, Skarr, and the Flame pheonix clearly say the models in question have been slain. Skarr is slain "after he has been clain," the flame phoenix is slain "if this model is slain," and the ring bearer is slain "If the model bearing this ring is slain." Additionally, each of these are units that are slain and in the reinforcement rule above it states above that abilities that replace units that have been destroyed (all three units are destroyed, and them being destroyed is a conditions of the ability working). 

No where does it say that this rule ignores abilities on the unit itself or say that the ability has to be out side of the unit or something silly like that. 

As such you have to pay. You simply must. It has always been the case that you have to pay, and assumptions otherwise is completely ignoring RAW in favor of adding some kind of buff.

Like i hear what you guys are saying, but simply put it says no where that the rules work in such a way that this abilities ignore this rule. 

 

Edit: for comparison these two question which had already been answered have been used to clarify other question in tournaments and on this very forum 

Q: If a unit uses the Destruction Allegiance Ability ‘Rampaging Destroyers’, does it count as having moved in the movement phase? A: No.

Q: Can the ‘Rampaging Destroyers’ ability be used to retreat? A: Yes, this move is made ‘as if it were the movement phase’, so as long as you roll high enough you can use this move to retreat.

 

Heck they've been sided to back up how bonesplitter hero phase combat works, and other such rules. How is it possible that this ring question could be any different. 

[RuneBrush]

The FAQ lists a specific case of when you use reinforcement points for a specific Artefact.  Abilities on a unit's Warscroll are costed into that Warscroll's points value already, regardless of what those abilities are.

If GW had wished this to be a universal rule then the FAQ would have received more generic wording (such as used on the very last question in the Generals Handbook FAQ).

[BaldoBeardo]

Abilities on the unit's warscroll - no reinforcement points cost.
Abilities off the unit's warscroll - use reinforcement points.

I would say that it's more like:

• Ring of Immortality - uses reinforcement points.
• Abilities that aren't the Ring of Immortality and are functionally similar - don't use reinforcement points.

It's a balance driven change in response to the clamor about how frustrating Death are to play against.

Agreed. If it's intended as a blanket, strange single example to pick.

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[Nico]

Quote

Abilities on the unit's warscroll - no reinforcement points cost.
Abilities off the unit's warscroll - use reinforcement points.

I would say that it's more like:

• Ring of Immortality - uses reinforcement points.
• Abilities that aren't the Ring of Immortality and are functionally similar - don't use reinforcement points.

It's a balance driven change in response to the clamor about how frustrating Death are to play against.

[mmimzie]

5 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Ring of immortality is an upgrade and is not pointed. 

 

This is an assumption based on nothing i'm afraid No where does it say that upgrades and things you pay for are different. If you look at Skarr & the phoenix, the wording is pretty much the same as such both abilities follow the same rules. Language must be applicable universally otherwise we can make no assumptions to rules as 2 set of words saying the same thing wouldn't have the same meaning.  

[BaldoBeardo]

Nothing in the rules indicates that artefacts work differently from abilities on a warscroll.

FAQ actually confirms the current thinking.
Abilities on the unit's warscroll - no reinforcement points cost.
Abilities off the unit's warscroll - use reinforcement points.

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