Grimrock

Saw the slaangor warscroll on Reddit. It's... Pretty bad for 140 points. Damage output is terrible and they're going to die to a stiff breeze. I'm wondering if maybe there are some really powerful spells or command abilities that we're missing. Maybe a +1 damage or -2 rend or something. There must be something that makes them work.

I'm really interested in getting some models on the table and actually playing a few games. The new depravity rules sound much more inclusive but they also seem to have a lot of counter play. Your opponent can mostly get around them by focusing units down so it's unlikely you'll get more than one or two points on their turn. Also playing to hurt your opponents units rather than kill them is generally a terrible idea. People will be able to summon a lot, but they'll find themselves losing the attrition battle and objectives very quickly. I could definitely be wrong, but from first glance I don't think summoning is going to be a huge deal and armies built to maximize it will struggle a bit. If we have ways of causing chip damage to our own units (like if the wheels endless spell hasn't changed significantly) then it might be viable, but even then it's hard to say if it'll actually be worth the cost. I agree with @Enoby about the points, I'm really curious to see what the new warscrolls look like. The biggest thing that caught my eye was the hike for all the heralds in various forms. I'm hoping they've had a buff of sorts to justify it, but I'm also a little worried GW is overvaluing the new locus or trying to push people away from using the heroes they bought for last edition. Can't wait for the full rules tomorrow! Oh, can anyone give a quick run down on glutos? I can't seem to find the warscroll.

I think what @KoganStyle was trying to say is the only things required for judgements and prayers is a mark of khorne and the priest keyword. The warshrine using them is totally legit, and for that matter using the skull altar for a reroll is also fantastic. Giving the undivided prayer a reroll makes it extremely consistent.

It would be nice to see it get a little more impactful. Maybe it could be the focal point for alternate abilities beyond just summoning. Like at the start it gives a 6 inch aura of extra attacks, and every 12 depravity it gets 6" bigger. At a threshold it also gives reroll 1s to hit, then to wound, then +1 rend, etc. Once you spend your points you reset and the aura goes back to normal. Or maybe if they rework depravity generation they could make it more important. Like depravity generation is doubled if the wounds are caused wholly within 18". That would give the feel of your army frolicking around this focal point and trying to show off to get more attention from the daemon.

No reason why not, the thricefold is a solid list and it looks like you've got the most important parts. As for competitiveness there are definitely some improvements that could be made, but it'd mostly depend on what kind of group/people you're playing with. Nurgle isn't the most competitive army these days, not bad but not top tier. In addition a number of the units you own aren't really great in AoS (sloppity, daemon prince and nurglings in particular). I'd suggest you start looking into the mortal side of the book as you go forward since blight kings are pretty good right now, but you should be able to get started with what you have.

Well I guess the easy solution to that would be to make more of the bonuses for slaanesh key off the Hedonite keyword rather than just Slaanesh. Not ideal mind you, I do like being able to use my StD models in Slaanesh freely, but breaking things up really seems to be the reason the keyword system was introduced in the first place. The exploding 6's could stay slaanesh, but if there are a number of new spell buffs or command abilities introduced that are solely for Hedonite then I could easily see the new mortals being more attractive. Maybe a base speed 6 with a move twice spell and a run/charge command ability? Couple that with double activations from the keeper and they might be interesting enough to pass over on marauders.

Yeah pretty much. Even if you're running him alone he can still buff himself with the undivided prayer, and when he goes in re-rolling all hits and wounds with 1-2 extra attacks per weapon he can do a lot of damage. Plus he's a totem so he can give an extra attack to nearby blood reavers. That being said he's much better with a unit of StD nearby. Warriors can definitely still work in Khorne, they're similar to blood warriors but not too similar. They're more defensive by default and work really well with a bronzed flesh buff on them as they'll end up with a 3+ rerollable save until they drop below ten models. If you go with great weapons instead of shields and buff them up (for example the undivided buff, a bloodsecrator, and killing frenzy) they can absolutely do work. Actually I think that's what I like best about Khorne and Slaves together, Khorne can pretty much make anything with the mark of Khorne work as long as you build for it. It's fun to dig up the synergies and see if you can actually get them to function on the table.

Cool, I thought there might be a leather color in there. Looks really good. I have found that mixing Khorne and Slaves is definitely stronger since you can get the best of both worlds, and when I mix I prefer the khorne allegiance since it has a few big benefits. The prayers are great, the sub factions can be really compelling, the tithe table is rock solid, and the skull altar + warshrine is just too good. Like you said though khorne has more than enough parts that you could collect it for ages and never really feel the need to grab slaves stuff. I collected khorne for a couple years and always liked a few StD models, but even then I only bought into them once the new book dropped. Really just do whatever makes you happy. Khorne is a great faction to play.

Well you definitely don't need to mix the two, but there are a few slaves units that I've found work really well in khorne. The warshrine is pretty incredible when paired with the skull altar and is key if you're going to include any other slaves units. It can also hit surprisingly hard if it gets a few buffs. I know the models are really old, but marauders are massively better then any existing khorne infantry right now. They hit like absolute freight trains. Knights are actually fairly different from skullcrushers since they're a fair bit faster and the lances can do a lot more damage, but really need some buffs. They're certainly worth considering as an addition. The khorne Daemon Prince has a killer command ability and there are a number of artefacts and a command trait that work really well on him. Finally Archaon can be absolutely devastating in khorne and is definitely worth a look. He works the best when you stack buffs on him, and no one stacks buffs like khorne. Love the paint job by the way, what colors did you use for the gold?

I've had characters ascend twice so far. I believe one time was fighting another chaos army and once was after killing an ogre tyrant. The worst part is that I don't think it really had any impact on the game after the ascension, it was already late enough and enough had died that the newly created prince had nothing to do but gloat in a corner while sitting on an objective. Kind of a sad commentary on the nature of chaos... finally get what they desire and it turns out to be purely selfish and worthless in the end.

Really? That's mega lame, I thought they did. My bad

So far I think they've always released separate warbands around the time the starter for the next season is released, so I'd expect to see the same for Beastgrave. I don't think we've heard anything specific about it though.

Hmm, well slaves could actually be pretty frustrating for that Tzeentch battleforce because they're pretty resilient to magic and the base warriors can be pretty resilient against shooting if you have a lot of them. Khorne might be a good choice though. They have a pretty good value in their mortal start collecting box and they can handle some of the tzeentch magic while also still being vulnerable to the shooting so they don't completely counter the army. If you pick up the start collecting box, a couple slaughterpriests, a box of mighty skull crushers, and a Skull Altar, you could make this: Allegiance: Khorne- Slaughterhost: The GoretideLeadersBloodsecrator (120)- General- Command Trait: Hew the Foe- Artefact: Thronebreaker's TorcBloodstoker (80)- Artefact: Talisman of Burning BloodSlaughterpriest (100)- Blood Blessing: Killing FrenzySlaughterpriest (100)- Blood Blessing: Bronzed FleshBattleline5 x Blood Warriors (100)- Goreaxe & Gorefist10 x Bloodreavers (70)- Reaver Blades10 x Bloodreavers (70)- Reaver Blades6 x Mighty Skullcrushers (320)- BloodglaivesUnits1 x Khorgoraths (100)BattalionsGore Pilgrims (140)Total: 1200 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 90 I believe that's the same number of points as the Tzeentch battleforce and should make for some interesting games. If the buffs go off on the skullcrushers they can be a serious problem for the Tzeentch force but should be manageable with good play and focus. The troops are good for grabbing objectives and screening, and the priests can dish out some pretty serious damage.

It depends on what you mean by 'best', but most factions should be able to come up with around 1000 points for a similar cost to the battle force if you're smart about your purchases. For example if you went with Slaves to Darkness you could get a start collecting box, the new Gresh's Iron Reapers box of chariots, and an extra box of chaos warriors to make a list like this: Allegiance: Slaves to DarknessLeadersChaos Lord on Karkadrak (230)Battleline5 x Chaos Knights (160)- Ensorcelled Weapons1 x Chaos Chariots (120)- Greatblades1 x Chaos Chariots (120)- Greatblades1 x Chaos Chariots (120)- Greatblades20 x Chaos Warriors (360)- Hand Weapon & ShieldBattalionsRuinbringer Warband (140)Total: 1250 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 85 Some factions may be harder than others due to things like faction terrain (Skull Altar for Khorne or the Herdstone for the Beasts of Chaos) or requiring a lot of trooper models (Beasts of Chaos in particular). What exactly are you looking for in terms of an army? Are you looking for the most competitive choice? Something roughly balanced with the Tzeentch battleforce? Or maybe just something that plays differently?

I wouldn't be betting on anything to drastic to be honest. If they're going to follow the standard pattern from Psychic Awakening I'd expect a new host and a battalion or two. We've already gotten a new hero model and some reworked warscrolls in Shadow and Pain which is probably all we're getting that regard, and I definitely don't think we'll be getting a new book or a totally revamped depravity system. I'd be happy to be wrong but I'd be wary about getting my hopes up beyond the usual tweaks.

Yeah honestly I was thinking seekers might do the work better as well, but the hellstriders still have some advantages. The scourges are much better at attacking lone support heroes as they enable an extra rank of attacks, and the extra survivability also helps if they get caught out while flanking. I know they're not great at what they do but I guess I'm just trying to say I like their current form more than their previous one. Although that isn't really saying much haha. Still I agree there isn't much point taking them. I've been trying to make seekers work for a long time and I've never really had any clear success so I can't imagine the scourges will somehow suddenly make everything better. I really have no idea what kind of list I'd want to write at this point anyway, nothing is particularly exciting or motivating.

Dang, you're right, totally forgot they're conditional battleline. That's a real kick in the teeth... i guess it's pretty much down to daemonettes and marauders then. I don't know, focusing on the -1 to hit might be a mistake. I'm not saying that the hellstriders should be primary damage dealers but I think there's still potential with the scourges for some sort of offensive role. Each model is making 4 attacks at 3+/4+ and exploding sixes. Even without rend that puts out a pretty significant number of wounds. Combine that with their significant base speed and the ability to re-roll charges and I think you have a really solid unit for threatening backlines. A unit of 10 isn't terribly expensive and they could be used to swing around the flank for a turn and target objective holders or backline support characters. They'll put out about 16 wounds before saves, which is pretty solid for blending through lighter units and characters. Their tankiness on the charge helps in that role too since you probably won't be able to get a locus generator that far into the back field. Obviously they aren't perfect but I still think there's something there.

I like that it helps give a clearer definition between use for scourges and spears. If you want to run multiple small units that are charging a lot then you can run the spears. If you want bigger units then the scourges with their mass of attacks and long reach will be a better bet. I'm pretty happy they seem to have found a way to make them both work but in different situations. I'm still hoping that the removal of battleline was just a typo or something since that's going to have a pretty big impact on my list building. Worst case I can always just run 2 units of marauder horsemen in their place but that'd definitely be a trade down.

Well I definitely think that the StD units need to be balanced around the other armies but that shouldn't mean they were handicapped by them. All they need to do to make sure the models are still viable everywhere is to make sure that the StD allegiance abilities are at least as strong or stronger than the ones from the other chaos armies. GW straight up said that the StD models should be at their strongest in the StD allegiance during the release previews, but obviously they seem to have missed the mark somewhat. Personally I think the biggest issues affecting the balance of the faction is they put too much weight on the buffs from the sorcerer and the warshrine and seemed to have baked them into the point values for the army. Full rerolls to hit and wound are catastrophically good but they're just a touch too unreliable when they're going off on a 3+ prayer or 6 to cast. It means in games where you always have your buffs you'll simply wreck face everywhere, and games where you miss them on the clutch turn you're facing a massive uphill battle. Honestly I think the abilities are far too polarizing and the faction would have been much easier to balance without them.

Well... hmm. Interesting anyway. The Lord of Pain has a good combat profile and he's decently survivable for a standard foot hero. The biggest issue is the command ability only affecting Hedonite Mortal so... hellstriders, himself, and Archaon. Archaon can get better buffs by bringing along a chaos sorcerer or warshrine, not to mention that a chaos lord can just make him attack twice with the exact same range and cost as Paragon of Depravity. I'm assuming he's built with future hedonite mortals in mind so he'll be more useful as time goes on, but for now I don't see a use for him unless you're running huge blocks of hellstriders. Even then you'll be hard pressed to keep up with them to give out the buff. Maybe there'll be a future battalion where slaves to darkness swap out their S2D keyword for Hedonites?

Sorry, I've removed the 'wrong' part because it was overly antagonistic. The problem is you're taking an FAQ that is specifically clearing up a different rule and using it as an excuse to change a rule to be the way you want it. The reason the FAQ on 'counts as their movement' was needed is there was no indication on whether that instance of 'counts as' impacted their ability to use other rules. Similarly, there is no indication in the rules that 'count as slain' is meant to prevent 'Split and Split Again' from being used. Of course 'count as' does imply that a fleeing model is not explicitly slain. The problem is we don't know what that entails. We don't know if they count as slain for the purposes of triggers, victory conditions, healing, or anything else. In the absence of a clarification one could assume it means anything or nothing. Since we have no way of knowing which assumptions are correct and which aren't we are stuck going back to the rule as written.

There are definitely instances where 'count as' are not equal to the original statement, and that makes perfect sense because what would be the point of saying 'count as' in the first place? The issue with this rule is that there are no limiters to the statement to define what 'count as' means. We can guess at it all day long, but there is nothing in the rules to support those guesses. You can say that a model counting as slain shouldn't get the benefit of one rule or another because it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't suddenly make it a core rule. I could just as easily say that 'count as slain' is only there to prevent a unit from being able to heal those models back, but that's just me adding my own interpretation to the rules. Until we get an FAQ or clarification, counts as slain can mean nothing other than counts as slain.

Listen guys, I know it seems weird but there are no restrictions in the rules on what 'counts as slain' means. Currently the only direct interpretation is that the models count as slain for all purposes. The rules don't say 'count as slain for the purposes of victory conditions' or 'count as slain except for the purposes of triggering special rules', they say 'count as slain'. That means they count as slain, full stop. We have a restriction for 'counts as their move' due to the FAQ, but nothing for slain. Until we have a restriction or an FAQ, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that supports your argument directly and telling people that they're wrong when using the rules as written is silly. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they FAQ it later to support your arguments, but as of right now they're only based on your feelings of what you think should be correct. A model that flees counts as slain, and all things that apply to slain apply to fleeing. As for other triggers that work with slain, there are usually limits on them that keep them from working in the battleshock phase. I don't know Skaven, but I do know Khorne blood warriors for example say 'If a model from this unit is slain in the combat phase'. There are similar limitations on skullreapers and the bood tithe table, but nothing on wrathmongers. GW could have easily applied a similar limitation on Horrors like 'when this model is slain in any phase other than battleshock', but they didn't. If you want to house rule it with your play group so that it makes more sense for you then sure, more power to you. Just don't come online and tell people that your house rules are the right way to play the game and using the rules as written is somehow wrong.

Based on the wording it would technically be a modified roll, but it isn't an armor save or anything. As far as I know there's nothing in the game that modifies damage prevention rolls in any way. Also an interesting note, with all the artwork and the sprue pictures it's getting pretty likely that the chariot in the box is just a single kit instead of the double needed to create an exalted chariot. That hurts the value for me since I really have no interest in a single seeker chariot running around. I guess I'll be waiting the 6 months for the character to come out on his own.

I'm just excited to see if they actually start doing meaningful expansions on existing ranges. There are so many mini factions kicking around now, I want to see them start building them up. Give us a bunch of slaanesh mortals, daughters artillery, idoneth sea creatures, ironjawz... Anything haha. I don't care what it is, I just want to see that they care enough about existing factions to give them some love instead of firing off yet another new one.