WoollyMammoth
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Posts posted by WoollyMammoth
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On twitch today Phil Kelly said new factions super soon, keep an eye on MalignPortents.com.
Could be a reference to the new death changes, but it sounds like new models.
My local GW store manager said he 'saw an incredible new Black Coach'. I asked where and he said .. not on something public.
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@Arkiham
AoS armies are 1/3 the size and the special rules for each army are typically straightforward (and no stratagems). There are already armies for these races so they are simply getting updated, meaning what we already know about these armies are simply changing. The scrolls are all free so its not hard to take a peek and see all the things that are going on when an army gets updated. As far as the core rules, at least 1/4 of the pages are useless to most players, they could simply clean it up. Adding a note about B2B measurement and making a shooting rule like "units engaged in the shooting phase may only target units within 3" of them" would add more strategy to the game without making things overly complex. -
40k is vastly more complex than AoS and honestly, its turning me off.
In order to win any game of warhammer you have to understand how to win, how to get the objectives. You have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your army and how your units are likely to perform in various situations. Lastly - perhaps most importantly - you have to know your enemy. You have to understand what your opponent wants to do with their army, and you have to know how to stop them from doing it.
In AoS its not hard to learn the armies and what they do, what they are likely to do. You need a screen unit vs Khorne to force them into a bad combat when they fly across the table turn 1. For Kunnin Rukk, you need a plan to kill their Orruk Warboss asap and end their double shooting. For Tzeentch you need a way to mitigate their Skyfires asap before they can do too much harm. For Skyre you need to beat down on the Stormfiends before they can freely do 18D3 mortal wounds to you. Etc, etc.
For 40k, things are much different. To start, armies have about 3 times the units on average than AoS armies, so there is a lot more variety and things to understand. Next, you need to understand the special rules of all the armies. With 2+ books coming out a month this is insane to keep up with. Then there are the stratagems. Hundreds and hundreds of stratagems you have to read, understand, and be aware of how your enemy is going to use them to stop you from doing what you want to do, pull off their own combos and sucker punch you.
Add on top of all this complexity the fact that 40k players are about 3x more likely to show up for a game with zero painted models. So you take your beautiful models you spent eons painting, and get blown out hard by some silly netlist of gray plastic models. AoS players tend to take more pride in their painting. Sure there are gray models abound but often there is at least a few fully painted units and monsters, compared to completely barren gray plastic i see with most 40k armies. Maybe this culture is changing with the new simplified ruleset appealing to more hobby-focused gamers, but right now I see mostly the same as usual.
I got the Death Guard starter because it was dirt cheap, and a few supplemental boxes, but at this point some of them are unopened and I have little interest in getting more.
Sure AoS has its problems, but most of them stem from inattention compared to 40k that got two new armies, a new ruleset and 10 new army books in the last 6 months. If they start to give this kind of love to AoS, and support their incomplete armies like Elves, Death, Free Peoples, Grots, etc, then most of the problems with AoS will be gone. After xmass we are very likely getting Deathrattle, combined Nurgle, and maybe even High Elves. Next year we might get a core rule update where they cut out the fat and write some new clarity like B2B measurement and more complex rules for shooting.
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@shinros
I was thinking that the reason death has not gotten anything is because they were going to do a whole campaign where death becomes the main protagonist and suddenly 5 new death armies drop in 6 months. I was also hoping this is not the case because getting too much is not a good thing either, it would be too much to keep up with and too expensive to start 5 new armies in a single year. One new death army every other year would be amazing.
@RuneBrush
Its about time for a core update. The 4 pages include silliness like wound count, sudden death and triumphs - which most of us have been ignoring for years. The scenery rules could use some updates and the core rules could use a little bit more meat.-
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First of all, a GW year is Spring - Spring, so this whole 2017 discussion is arbitrary.
Last GW year was Tzeentch and we saw a lot of new stuff like Silver Tower, Khorne update + unification, Stormcast update + vanguard army + unification, and of course the big Tzeentch drop which was far more than an update + unification; an entire new army of stuff to go with it. All this not to mention an entire reboot of AoS, starting the new Allegiance direction for the game, and releasing the GH which skyrocketed the hobby into a new renaissance, and then ending with a jaw dropping Kharadron Overloard release.
This year (The Year of Nurgle) started off with big things for 40k, and they got two new armies. With a massive reboot of the game that gets at least 60% of their business, its understandable that AoS would take a sideline. Despite that this is not AoS related, the Sigmar-ification of 40k has created mass appeal to many die hard fantasy-only players, so this is a good thing for most of us.
While 40k is still going strong, releasing their new armies and new books, they still started major drops for AoS. They are experimenting and trying new things on their long journey to make AoS more balanced and constantly interesting. First off the GH:2017 is a big deal, reflecting that fact they will be updating the meta every year and constantly updating points and sometimes even scrolls. They also made a big step toward getting a lot more people on board with the new Allegiance direction, and expanding all 3 ways of play with more variety and options. This was quickly followed by Blightwar which was a combination of: starter set for new players, two new models and allegiance for Nurgle.
On the topic of starter set, this is one of the most important aspects of the game; getting new players or existing players to start new armies/games. The last year has been a revolution in how to get started, starting with small model packs and the new Skirmish game, moving into mid-range army starter sets, now with colored plastics and using the box for terrain. Then this ties in with Path to Glory and getting into campaigns, boosted by the new Firestorm. Then there are large starter sets, always with incredible value, providing a ton of beautiful models so you can dive right in. Last we have a revolution of 'Getting Started' boxes, where GW is providing discounts for the first time. There have been so many amazing new discounted box sets, I can't even count them. All of this benefits the entire AoS community in many important ways.
Now we are getting Shadespire, which is a combination of several things. First off, it might just be a fun board game. Basic board games appeal to a wider variety of audiences and might serve as another gateway into AoS, or a way to play your miniatures with people who might not be interested in playing a full tabletop game. Secondly, its providing us with something like 100 new models over the next few months which will have full integration into AoS in some way. They are also pushing the competitive aspect of it, which means it might be a way for some of us to scratch a more competitive itch, or remove some of those kinds of people from the AoS pool.
Technically this year is not even half over. Maybe not before Jan, but we are likely to see a lot more before spring. Deathrattle and Nurgle battletomes are all but guaranteed, which would put us in the 2 new-model armies a year par that seems to be the case for both AoS and 40k. We could even see some big surprises such as an elf reboot or an entirely new Death army. More Shadespire is sure to come as well, releasing new models for armies like Skaven & fyreslayers. maybe it will have a small impact; maybe a large impact. For example, the release of the 5 Wulfen models had a big effect on Space Wolves in 40k.
There is only anything to get down about if you hyper focus what you want on one specific thing. For example, if you have restricted yourself to only playing High Elves in 2k point matched play AoS; and refuse to do anything else - then you are focusing on one tiny part of the hobby (though you have fresh new battleplans, and a huge array of new Order models to ally with). You are one paint stroke in a massive painting that GW is trying to make here. You just have to accept that it may be 5 or even 10 years before GW comes back around to you - or maybe not at all. Some players like Tomb Kings have to pick a new thing or they will simply fade away. But, if you just love AoS, beautiful models, good games, etc. - and are willing to experiment with new armies, new ways of play, and even some new games - GW is raining content down on you on a regular basis to where its literally impossible to keep up with.
We all have our favorite thing, and it sucks if that thing is getting nothing for a long time (everyone knows how I feel about Death) but its absolutely insane to call the last few years anything other than an unbelievable godsend for Warhammer fans and the entire world of tabletop gaming. If you cannot see this, you really have to get out of your shell and start taking a wider look at what is going on around you and what this hobby has to offer. There is an amazing variety of things to do and people who are interested in trying it with you, and its only getting better with literally every week that passes.
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@Tanka
Not every chaos mount is daemonic. Juggernauts are kind of like machines made by daemonic forges, but lack the inherent daemonic properties of an actual daemon. The lore suggests they are daemonic but none of them have a daemon keyword, so they are simply not daemons. Ghurk is clearly not a machine, he is some kind of daemon prince-esque monster. The lore simply suggests he is "mutated" but he looks like a daemon so its pretty silly. -
@Spiky Norman
Ghurk Glott is clearly a daemon, in the same way a mortal who turns into a daemon prince is a daemon (and has the daemon keyword). Any model riding on a daemonic mount has the daemon keyword (Harbinger of Decay, Hellstriders/Lord of Slaanesh on mount, etc) even when the rider is mortal. Whether or not a Maggoth is a daemon is debatable, it could be some kind of ugly mortal beast. But if Ghurk is not a daemon .. I don't know what is.-
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36 minutes ago, Galas said:
There are strong rumours that after this Death Guard release, we will see a Daemons of Nurgle release, with a Nurgle battletome for February 2018. I don't remember if hastings or Lady Atia said it, I don't have the quote/post at hand now.
I really hope so. Feb is such a long time away though
26 minutes ago, Spiky Norman said:When I read that part, I had to scroll back up to make sure I was actually reading an AoS article and not a 40k article. In 40k the Herald of Nurgle is actually a wizard and have a decent aura-buff (+1STR). Is this a mistake in the article or will we see the Daemons of Nurgle warscrolls more closely reflect their 40k counterparts?
I hope so, because the Herald of Nurgle in 40k great compared to the very lackluster AoS version :-)
Yeah its super lame. It sounds like they will make heralds wizards, which is super needed. Nurgle overall needs a ton of work.
- Glottkin is weird. Why is he not a Daemon? Why doesn't he have DR? Does anybody even know how Horrific Opponent even works?? He needs much more given the fact he can't take artifacts or allegiance.
- Plaguebearers do nothing. They need more rules.
- Drones are armed with a bunch of wet noodles. They are pretty good near a Nurgle hero, but the mortal wound thing should just be innate so its not so clumsy.
- Daemon Prince getting +1 save is lame. He should have DR.
- Nurglings do nothing
- GUO & Beasts desperately need rule updates almost as much as model updates.
- Epidemius is actually pretty cool but his model is terrible
- Blightkings are decent but desperately need support for survivablity and damage. Its such an awesome kit with a million options reduced to "blighted weapon". They can do so much more with the rules. Why are there shields with no shield rules??
- Gutrot is cool but he lacks any synergy
- Sorcerer needs to get close but lack DR and only has a 5+ save
- Lord of Plagues is terrible
- Its awesome that you can take a Verminlord Corruptor, but he is consistently disappointing.
Festus and Harbinger are great, and the Maggoth Lords are cool, but its not enough to hold up an army. The entire army needs to be seriously rewritten to be relevant. 40k Nurgle daemons are a boatload more fun, and there is a million CSM 'daemons' for synergy. The DG codex is amazing with a million awesome, fun things. There are a few ways to make a decent army in AoS, but so much of it is complete trash atm. I have most of the models, and want to use them, but they are simply not fun to play. I'm hoping for some serious changes with a new tome.
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@Kurrilino
This is probably accurate, the new novel excerpt talks about a stormcast in weathered armor, wearing an orruk skull as a shoulderpad. Most likely stormcast will split into legitimate sub-factions at some point, maybe even chaos eternals or death eternals. I'm waiting for Torglug to show up as a stormcast - this is likely the year of nurgle.-
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This is exactly what I have been going for since I started fantasy. This is awesome and gives me focus and direction. I'm going to read through this whole forum carefully in the next few days. I hope the new AoS 'skirmish' game fits into this nicely, because I probably don't want to try and learn and promote Hinterlands. People are raving about Shadow Wars, and I'm currently building a Genestealer Cult warband that would probably fit right in with Inq28. I have a ton of models that are or are close to exactly what AoS28 is, and I'll be organizing and finalizing them for show here soon. Though I keep leaning more and more toword the hobby, I tend to make models built around GW game systems so I can enjoy them on the table (I love to take action shots!) First, I'll show one of my most popular conversions, and some lore behind it. It's a little big for AoS28 so I'll get it out of the way first:
Ancient Nehekhara was a beautiful but harsh, unforgiving land. Few creatures could survive the unforgiving, sun-bleached sands. The people who resided in this ancient kingdom had to travel quickly, often upon horses bred for durability and speed. The lords of the kingdom would ride great decorated chariots - the size and extravagance of the chariot denoting the stature of the lord. However large and extravagant a chariot might be, all pale in comparison to the most prized of all mounts - the rare and legendary beasts known as the Vhuul.
The Vhuul were great muscular beasts who roamed the desert on dark nights. Some claim they are descendant from the great dragons of Naggaroth, others that they are corruptions of the beasts now known as Dracoth. They are carrion beasts, roaming for those animals and creatures the desert has claimed. They say that the eating of dead flesh grants great unnatural strength, but also binds the living soul to the will of Nagash. If so this great strength could be seen in the dark elegance of of Vhuul.
There are claims that some of the ancient peoples of Nehekhara were able to capture and even train these creatures as loyal mounts. By the height of the Nehekahara empire, however, such an idea was already legend. Few of these creatures remained and their bones were entombed, later to be resurrected as the great skeletal guardians known as the Morghast Archai. After the time of Nagash, the great Vampire Lords would try to re-create a Vhuul as great constructs of flesh and bone. These creatures came to be known as Abyssal Terrors. Though great and powerful flying mounts, they were Vhuul only in concept, the actual beasts having gone extinct in a lost age.
In this new age, by some corruption of the will of Sigmar, the Vhuul have returned, seen wandering the great bone seas of Shyish. Neferata sensed the essence of these beasts immediately and began enforcing her will upon them, organizing a coven of the beats to act as loyal bodyguards. While she herself now rides upon a Dread Abyssal, the greatest and most loyal of her vampires may be gifted one of these Vhuul, the greatest prize awarded for service to the Queen of the Damned.
Neferata still looks like the beautiful young woman she was when she ruled Lahmia,
though her sunless existence has given her pure white skin, and her eyes have turned yellow.
Long black tresses frame an exquisite face that is still capable of inspiring worship, though it is incapable of expressing pity.
- Warhammer Wikia
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@Bjarni St.
The first army i ever started was Necrons. They have been sitting in my closet for 5 years and now I'm trying to sell them actually. Its not because I don't like them but more because my painting and general hobby skill has progressed far enough that it hurts me to look at them. Despite that they do look cool, they were painfully boring to play. Walk, shoot, walk, shoot, walk, shoot. You can do some things but, last I knew that was the most effective way to play them regardless.
@Storm
Helanhammer 170, they talk a lot about how the painting levels for 40k tend to be lower than AoS
http://heelanhammer.com/ep170/
That's not to say there are not great painters all over the place. I've seen some really cool stuff in my area. -
I knew the announcement was going to be 40k. They tried to trick us by announcing it in the middle of SCGT, but I knew.
They are clearly trying to transition more softly in order to avoid their mistakes with fantasy. Regardless, I'm sure the new "matched play" rules will still be convoluted w/ lots of special rules and split profiles which you have to keep jumping back and fourth between pages to know whats going on.
I don't like 40k. Its not that the game is not fun, its that
- Shooting is always the least interesting kind of tabletop, and 40k is 99% shooting.
- The constant rule updates mean that people are always having to buy new models to adjust to the meta and so the game promotes unpainted or poorly painted models. I'm not saying there aren't amazing 40k painters out there, but the average painting level of AoS is much higher, and the chances of playing a "totally gray army" at a local game is much more likely with 40k.
- I don't love the lore and art direction. I really like 10% of the models and the lore, whereas with fantasy I really like 90% of the models and the lore (if not more).
- I don't like space marines, and about 75% of players are space marine-types, which makes the game fairly visually repetitive.
The idea of just buying what I want and painting it is appealing, but we all know that is not going to be the case. I'm sure it will be with 'open play' but finding someone else to play open play is going to be very difficult, and even so the games are going to feel silly where nothing really matters.
Honestly, unless tomorrow they come out with space death or something, I don't see myself ever getting into 40k. Even if there is an army which is really appealing to me, there is always going to be 3x more cool armies in AoS that I would rather make.
Last weekend a GW employee told me that a new elf book was coming and then some kind of new Tomb Kings. Meanwhile, deathrattle is getting reboxed and the rumor engine has a blatant skaven tail. I have no idea whats going on anymore.-
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- Abhorrant on Zombie Dragon -
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I been lazy this week. But heres something I was finishing up last wed.
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@FullMetalRPG
Well its easy with your daemon models lol.
I think a reboot would heavily change the culture which is what it really needs. I think they are afraid to lose an important fanbase but with the continued success of AoS, I think a 40k reboot is inevitable. There are a lot of cool 40k models that almost nobody touches because of the state of the rules. I would love to paint a ton of them but its not worth it with the current climate of 40k.
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AoS App Update:
- Generals Handbook available in the app for 15.99. If you purchase in the app, there is a profile view in My Battle to see the points, role and unit sizes of the scrolls you have added.
- Allegiance traits available as individual download. So far only Sylvaneth & Bonesplitterz, but this leaves the door open for them to publish allegiance stuff for all the pre-existing factions!
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@GreenMarine
I agree, except some of what you are talking about is already happening. You can post rule questions on the AoS facebook and get a reply within a few hours, and the important questions are organized directly into the published FAQ. They already realize board games are big; they have released about 5 in the last year, and silver tower can be played with most of the unmounted hero's available.
I don't think they will discontinue successful models just to make new ones. Dryads were just rebooted, despite being a very old model. There is no reason to throw out a product that is selling.
AoS was not a misstep, sales have grown since 8th ed fantasy battles. Fantasy was a dead limb that needed to be fully severed. I think they planned on releasing points but needed the wound to heal before they attached a better one, so they took a year to flood the market with their new IPs and purge all the haters so that we could start fresh now.@daedalus81
End times has nothing to do with AoS. The way they do everything has changed completely. They don't release models or books like that anymore, AoS is organized in a specific new way.@shinros
You're right - Sylvaneth aren't elves, nor are fyreslayers dwarves, or stormcast humans/empire/brits, or Ironjaws orcs. And we will never see another wood elf, dwarf, empire, brettonia or orc release ever again. They are dumping their weak IPs for strong new ones. They have yet to replace a single model with a better one, and after a year, I think we can expect they never will. That's not to say they might release something extremely similar - like branchwraith/branchwitch - which is a prime example that they wont replace a model, even if its nearly identical.
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@shinros
If they got started today we would not see a new model until late 2017. Surely there are some in the works. I've heard whispers of a new kind of tomb king. So far the trend has been either
A. Reinvention of an existing faction (Flesh-Eaters) with no new models
B. Brand new faction with all new models
Sylvaneth is actually the first exception to the rule, but basically all they did was create a brand new faction on top of the treeman kit. In terms of the old VC army, there's really not much left to work with after Flesh-Eater Courts. Though some factions like soulblight and nighthaunt are begging for new releases, I wouldn't be surprised if they reinvented DEATH with a brand new IP instead. They did it for:empire (basically replaced by stormcast)
dwarves (fireslayers)
orcs (ironjaws)
elves (sylvaneth).
Next they will have to replace generic vampires and skeletons - but with what? What kind of crazy IP will they come up with? A lot of us death fans love classic horror themes, but GW is specifically moving away from everything classical and into completely new IPs. What can death be that is completely new?
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On another topic - apparently White Dwarf is changing to a monthly magazine. Does this mean releases are going to be once a month too? -
The points are very cohesive. The main problem with 8th was it was a bunch of guys take on the system with their own ideas of balance. This is one book, released at the same time with one cohesive balance concept.
I'm a somewhat experienced AoS player - as far as I can see none of the bad things I was afraid of are not happening at all. Really good units are somewhat properly costed. Obvious exploits like way undercosted or overcosted units are not obviously present. It seems it was carefully designed so that, if you make a tiny pigeonhole force you are gifted with awesome units becoming battleline, but you cant use a lot of awesome models in your 'race' and especially 'grand alliance'. If you want to just go ahead and start grabbing the best models in your entire alliance, you get heavily penalized with a "battleline tax".
@PJetski
Thundertusk is a leader and a behemoth with no options for battline. Thundertusk is expensive and regardless, it suffers from likely the most harsh wounds penalty of any monster; if you cause 5 wounds on it it becomes a little silly pushover you can ignore. Regardless there has not been an "ogor" battletome yet. They can easily do what they did for flesh-eater courts and release a new battletome to override the scroll to fix it if the game becomes dominated by thundertusks.
Having said that, its a really beautiful model - i'd love to see a ton of painted thundertusks! Much much better than a ton of skull cannons.
EDIT - It does appear something called "thundertusk beastriders" is battelline - but we don't know what this is yet? especially this "frostlord"? Seems like an ogor book is coming, so anything could happen.
most of the posts seem to have finished .. Extremis Chapter is oddly missing?? -
Thanks Ben, you're the man - best AoS podcast in the world!
My biggest fear for Skaven is they will make like Clanrats 50 points for 20 and bring us back to the "180 core (battleline) models to be competitive" structure. Could be the same for skeletons, zombies, goblins, etc.
At first glance - do you notice any grossly under-costed horde units?
Update - Undead has its standard "core tax" except, unlike 8th, these basic units can hold their own in numbers, and most specifically with proper synergy. Theres really no reason why you don't want a huge horde of skeletons or ghouls. Appealing options like FE-Courts allow you to take strong units as core as well. Skaven however are going to require about 60 Clanrats to pay the 'core tax' if you want the standard kind of mixed forces you would do in 8th, though about 75% of all the good stuff is in skyre where you can take stormfiends as battleline.
I was really hoping for a return of magic items, and am very excited for this "artifact" system. Can you give a basic explanation of how artifacts work?
Update - you give one to a hero and theres 6 of them per grand alliance. pretty simple
In addition to magic items, I really miss magic lores. Picking a lore, rolling for spells. As a VC player, magic would make or break my games. I'm a little disappointed by the over simplicity of the magic phase. Don't get me wrong, I love the end of the age when most games were decided on who could get purple sun off first, but I feel they went a little too far with simplifying magic. Is there anything new that effects how magic works?
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@Thostos
Thank you for being an intelligent death player who realizes undead are going to be just fine without summoning. I never use summoning and have won every game I've played as death.
According to GW, each new publication of scrolls overrides the old publication, therefore with FE-Courts, units like Terrorgheist & Zombie Dragon do not have an option to summon. Not that they need it; summoning is about a free move now and these units move 14" on their own. By the way the FE courts have so much broken rules that go around summoning, easily the strongest army in AoS after seraphon and daemons have to actually start paying for their units.
@yarrickson
Retributors are very good, arguable for best unit in the game - but its a good case. With celestant on foot they are insane. But a thundertusk can delete two to start a game - they are not without counters. 220 seems fair however a lot of the stormcast points sounds like BS, I'll believe it when I see it on a page.-
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Everyone will be annoyed by this release. Everyone will hate some points choice or rule decision. That's just a fact.
What this book will do is give us the common ground that is very badly needed with AoS. This complete lack of ground is what is strangling the hobby in most places. No matter how bad it is, it cant go anywhere near how bad 8th edition was. But people loved 8th and there were hundreds more events every year and more active clubs, simply because it gave us all common ground so that everyone, no matter where you are on the planet, are playing by the same set of rules and guidelines as everyone else.
The sacrifice is that, all of us are going to lose something along the way. Some unit they love that is no longer 'points efficient'. some tactic or army composition that is no longer 'legal'. But its worth it if it grows the hobby back to the popularity of 8th and beyond, and I truly believe it will.
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I never rage quit, but I gave up since it typically takes me about 2 months to find one other person to play, despite living in a mecca of tabletop stores. Somehow its easier to get a game of Infinity or Malifaux than AoS. I posted regularly on every tabletop sore page, on local forums. I promoted custom balance rules, I even started a facebook dedicated to the area, but still almost no one is interested. I finally started a weekly event in hopes that a regular time slot and cool action pics will start to draw people in. But there have been a few month spans where I gave up on sigmar and pledged my allegiance to my PS4 instead.
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Arizona Warhammer Players
Name: Casey A. Schmitz / WoollymammothLocation: Odyssey Games
8989 E Via Linda, # 118, Scottsdale, Arizona 85258Name: Thursday Night Throwdown - Every Thursday @ 5PM
Contact: https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerAoSAZ/
Phoenix is very spread out with lots of tabletop stores. AoS is currently a very very small community in the area, but were trying to grow.
The Rumour Thread
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
I don't mind the Grand Alliance system, but I think that its trying too hard to be forced into 4 boxes. Already with ally system they are set into individual boxes, but the option to pick and choose is still available. It's also still a bit of a problem, specifically in order, where you have such a wide variety to pick and choose the best items. Both LVO and Adepticon had mixed order lists in the top 10. It's not dominating the meta, its not a competitive problem, its more of just the fact that it kind of sucks if you are a fan of Warhammer Fantasy or of a 'grand alliance' that is only a fraction of the size of order. Things like Morathi being a snake-daemon who bathes in blood being an order army. Also I hate skaven in Chaos. I would prefer if they just split order up into a couple groups and made skaven its own thing like death, and then I think that things would have more balance from a lore and size perspective. Order is the 'good guys' while chaos/destruction/death are the 'bad guys'. I think its time to break the good guys into multiple groups too.