Sedraxis

Yes because every army can just dish out 100+ wounds in 1 turn, especially after being shot at by 60+ 3+ 4+ -1 1 shots and however many flamers you want to get in range. At -1 to hit of course, good thing you also have free reign on objectives too. Have you never played another tome to notice the difference in power here? Destiny Dice is one hell of a drug.

Yep, there is no doubt in my mind that this is the best army by a pretty big margin right now. The faq fixed the obvious errors, but the raw power of rulestacking and cheap stats all-around is still all to real. Tournament results will show.

The biggest thing is giving our opponent a -1 on all their run and charge rolls. This disrupts a lot of things that people normally assume to be successful, give it a try. The extra 1" run is great when moving up in turn one since our movement is pretty low. Combined with a GUO and other movement boosts the odds of a turn 1 charge are getting bigger. It's free real estate! The Command Ability has it's uses as a bigger bubble and allows multiple rerolls for the price of one, so it could save you 1 or 2 cps per game. This was our only subfaction option for a long time and if you run a battalion to pick up a second artifact, you essentially just trade Grandfather's Blessing for all this goodness.

Also, a reminder that the Tamurkhan's Horde still exists and is an absolutely viable choice: The whole pdf is downloadable on the forgeworld website, easy to find if you google Tamurkhans Horde.

With the latest battalion cost reductions it's very possible to play one of the new subfactions and still get 1 or 2 artefacts from the Maggotkin book (witherstave🥰)

They are in addition to the Nurgle allegiance, so you still have access to the cycle, trees and everything.

This is the whole point. Those battalions aren't bad, they have a drawback. A price you pay for the bonuses. That is what makes them fair. These battalions are still much better then most battalions from recent books, same for the units. Even without Changehost, Flamers and Horrors Tzeentch will still be able to compete very well.

Don't forget to make them a wizard too, and why not make them a unit of 5 for the same points while you are at it? Why do people have these insane expectations of what a unit should be able to do? Nerfing the damage on flamers will not make them useless instantly, even if they deal half the damage they do now they will still be a very good unit. Buffing their defense will just break them even more . Look at horrors, cheapest wounds in the game but still able to do all sorts of good stuff for some reason. The problem isn't a single warscroll or battalion, the whole daemon side of Tzeentch allows you to play every strength in 1 army with no drawback. Games end in the first in most cases, it's not a matter of adjusting a single warscroll or battalion to make this okay again. I once again ask you to look at the mortal side, as the Tzeentch mortals are also really, really strong but yet pale in comparison to the daemons. And if you think Tzeentch mortals are bad... Well, check out some of the other battletomes and units.

This, the Tzeentch tome is full of great stuff even if you ignore the broken parts. I think a lot of people have never looked outside their own tomes and just assume everything else is magical christmasland. OBR is once again a good example of that.

Oh I haven't looked into the S2D side of Tzeentch yet, can you give me the basics? I'm really glad that people took the strongest options they could find. The sooner a problem becomes known the sooner we can accept it and work towards solving it. It does ruin the fun of the event for some, so I hope it won't happen too often.

This is the stuff that shows how little people actually know about battletomes and rules across the game. The mortal side of Tzeentch has great design, lots of options and choices. Very on par with pretty much all other good tomes. However when comparing to the daemon side of things it looks bad (as does everything else in the game). In fact, the mortal side even did pretty well in the first tournaments (5th I believe?). This is not a statement aimed at @Malakithe but rather the community as a whole: If you don't play tournaments, read a lot of battletomes or test/play a lot of armies, why do you still mingle in all these discussions. It is all for a personal agenda? The same happened with OBR, where people complained about stuff that wasn't even real just because someone on the internet threw some scary numbers around. I get it looks scary, but in practice we can see there are lots of ways to deal with it and play around it. Slaanesh was a bit of a different story, and now so is Tzeentch. The problem isn't just scary stats, it's the combination of a lot of power and the lack of a clear weakness. In the case of Tzeentch, games are decided in the first turn either by locking down or straight up killing most of an opponents army. Changehost plays a big part in that, but the mere stats on horrors/flamers combined with hosts and allegiance abilities are in another league as well. Tzeentch will always be a strong army because of their enormous list of options, tools and tricks to pull off game-deciding moves (just the warscrolls + destiny dice give you so much freedom, which is a very cool mechanic). The problem arises when there is no drawback for this and their straight up combat power/costs get to be at the same levels as melee focussed armies with far less tricks. Having bad saves is the attempt at this I guess, but even this gets mitigated with -1 to hit and horrors being the cheapest wounds out there. Mortal Tzeentch is a great example of what it should be. High damage and movement elites and battlelines supported by utility units/heroes. The drawback of low wounds/saves persists, so if you make a mistake you still lose. Just as OBR loses if their units end up in the wrong place and cannot make the correct engagements.

It's a shame. The mortal side of the tome is so well designed, but the daemon side of the rules... Oof! It's like they accidentally playtested it as a 40k army or something. It blows everything else out of the water.

Exactly why flamers are such a problem at current cost/output. If shooting units that also move fast, fly and have good threat range can win their points back (aka current flamers in 1 shooting phase), why would anyone ever play anything else? Mortal/Tzaangor Tzeentch has great design in the new book and can compete very well. Meanwhile the daemon part of the same tome invalidates it by doing everything better for less points in a 1-drop battalion.

That's because Skyfires aren't designed to get their points worth, they're all about threatening the whole board and forcing opponents to protect their important pieces/objectives.

Pinks splitting into 1 blue instead of 2 would solve a lot for the Horror problem. Flamers and exalted flamers could go to 1 damage flat instead of d3, their output is extremely high even without any battalions helping them out. Alternatively their cost could rise by 50%. Fixing the unmodified interactions with destiny dice is another important one. The recent chaos battalion bonuses are very strong, but it makes for a cool army strength. However combined with Tzeentch alpha strike/shenanigan potential it covers too many weaknesses, and I think battalions like Changehost need to be either big-battalions that include 1-2 smaller battalions or straight up 300 points. Any army should pay a hefty price for such power. The Gaunt Summoner bringing 200 points of units while costing 240 is a bit nuts, allow him to summon 10 Blue Horrors instead of Pinks to even it up with the other demon units power. Same goes for the disc variation. Finally, the Changeling is perhaps the single most undercosted unit in the game right now. Even at double points he would be great, with 2 spells, good abilities and so much shenanigan potential. I would ally him into anything that allows him. He and Belakor are insane right now. A pretty big list, but even with all this Tzeentch will still be strong if the player plays it right. The demon side will be hard to master, but all their potential shenanigans will still be there just at a higher price and less insane damage. As a bonus, the Darkfire Daemonrift needs to lose the extra wizard damage, or get 3 max cap and a point increase. This thing deals Pre-nerf Kroak levels of damage right now. What surprises me most about the whole Tzeentch thing is how good the design on the Arcanite side is, how did this daemon madness get through!? Now mind you, my goal is to get an even playing field. With Slaanesh adjusted and people figuring out OBR weaknesses there is potentially a lot of variety in the tournament scene (as LVO results show, where the new Tzeentch tome wasn't in effect as opposed to the other 2 tournament which were dominated by DoT). Tzeentch is the only real outlier pre-faq and I really hope it will be reeled in before we're in for another 6 months of 1 army ruling the world.

It's very amusing and sad at the same time to see so many people rate tomes like OBR as bad, yet Tzeentch and other similar tomes as good just because some %stats and internet talk told you it was OP. Can't wait to see the same people jump on the Tzeentch hatewagon as soon as the first tourney results are in. Shows how little most people actually know. I wish this forum had a separate balance discussion subforum so all this talk doesn't get in the way of positive, creative and constructive content.

Am I missing something or can Changehost lists just lock an entire army into dealing with 150-200 wounds of horrors before they can leave their deployment zone and contest objectives? Seems bonkers

Ok, so now you've met the guys who claim that anything that isn't extremely powerful is unplayable. Good to talk if you want to 5-0 every tournament and never play anyone outside of strictly competitive areas. Here's my advice as someone who plays a variety of armies with lots of people on different levels, both for fun and competitively: Pretty much everything is viable, you as a player determine how good your army is through playing it rather then just listbuilding. A good list still needs a good captain and a lot of players tend to ignore/forget that. Since you are new to the game I will assume that you will play mostly friends/local gameshop folks, which means all this talk about what is viable or not probably won't matter anyway! Yay! When it comes to the Stormcast Vanguard chamber their main strength is lots of extra movement options and lots of units with both shooting and melee attacks. You know, hit and run style tactics! One moment you attack from the left, next turn you strike them from the back or capture an objective on the other side of the field. Do you already have some models and experience with the game? Or are you still getting ready to step in?

My question is why isn't the darkfire daemonrift changed to prevent it from doing Kroak-levels of damage. That thing destroys entire armies right now. I do think it's a shame they brought the Nurgle CA down so much, it still working on shooting as well would've made it more useful yet fair.

The way I see it they could do with a small buff, maybe a 10 point discount but then again I think their role should be expensive in their army. OBR and LoN have good infantry and good casters as a strength, while their elite units come with an expensive price tag. If we fill up everyone's weaknesses we'll end up with more auto includes and a 'best list' per army instead of hard choices. This is my criticism with a lot of posts asking for buffs (or nerfs) on this forum, people want to compare everything to the strongest models not realising every faction should have weaknesses and strengths to keep the game interesting.

If Morghasts were 160 points for 2 they would absolutely destroy everything else without contest, they'd be the most unbalanced unit in the game right now.

If it's for playing with friends/local games this is a fine start to the Vanguard chamber. You can start playing 1k games/meeting engagements right away! Also 300 bucks for a fully painted 1k points is a pretty decent price I think. Getting steamrolled or not mostly comes down to how you play your army, not which army you play.

Good enough to win games with for sure! The Stardrake just got a nice point decrease too, so I'd give him a shot if you feel like painting one. You as a player are the main factor when it comes to winning games. A good list helps, but doesn't carry you to victory if your opponent plays better (or the dice decide to go meh too much). Stuff like tier lists and tournament stats have no influence on you untill you master multiple armies and compete succesfully in 40+ man tournaments regularly. The most important thing when it comes to picking an army is how you like their playstyle/vibe/models/whatever that makes you excited about them. It's a lot of work building painting and learning to play the game, so make sure you have fun doing so 😁

9" flying and 3d6 charge is a pretty big upgrade from 6" if you ask me. The stalkers do more damage and their CA helps by giving them rerolls to run/charge and semi-fly, but then again Morghasts debuff bravery and can have 2" range. So all in all I'd say both have their place in the army. I'm planning to run both units in the Katakrosian Deathglaive battalion soon, it may be a nice alternative to Mortek Crawlers.

They tend to perform fine for me. I feel flying and movement is very underrated whenever I see people comparing units.