Ganigumo

Another way to take them could be to add more durability, changing the horde bonus to 10+ and giving rerolls on saves, or something similar.

I saw a conversion with a single boar boy holding the big stabba (it might have been earlier in this thread actually)

I'm running a couple 10 mans in the army i'm painting right now. People are generally down on them because ungors are better in any size over 10, and in 10 man units they're pretty comparable, but for a suicide chaff unit ungors are 10 points cheaper. I think gors have some pros over ungors in 10 man units though.

This is correct. "On Disc" is a sub headi g so you can take them on foot or on disc in that battalion. Although I'm not sure why GW didn't just bold the keyword instead to save us the confusion

I could have worded it better, I mean that Ungors and Bestigors in big blocks love exploding hits. Doombulls are amazing depravity machines since they hit like a truck. Also I definitely agree with you on the models, the Gor models appeal to me way more than the ungor models as well. its why in the list I'm painting up I'm using 2 10 man units of Gors instead of ungors to fill out my battleline.

I'm just getting into beastmen myself, since it seems the best way to play Tzaangors at the moment, so take my advice with a grain of salt. In general Ungors are better than gors, at minimum sized units I think Gors have a role to play and have some advantages over ungors, but their 32mm bases and lack of spears hold them back way too much in bigger units. They're still cheap bodies, but ungors are cheaper, can attack in up to 3 ranks with spears, and I think BoC prefers to chaff up with small screen units than to horde up to make anvils. Just from looking through the rules a bit though Hedonites allegiance can offer BoC a lot. the exploding hits are amazing on big blobs of ungors with spears, and bestigors, and doombulls are amazing depravity machines with plenty of strong offensive artifacts in slaanesh. Pretenders gives the potential to kit out a hero to the extreme, and lurid haze Invaders gets a command ability for +1 to save rolls, which can push a lot of those average 4+ BoC saves over the edge.

For me I built one as Gordrakk, and the other as the Megaboss, so one has the helm and the other doesn't. They also have very different paint schemes, so they're visually distinct. One is mainly red, with some black outlines, very much like the red one from the battletome painting guide, and the second one I did in a yellowish brown with dark blue stripes, much like Tigrex from Monster Hunter.

Yeah I can't wait until Gitz get their Broken Realms update, I suspect spiderfang will get some love there based on arachnaroks are constantly on the "selling fast" tab and how often they go out of stock. They're the only part of the army that didn't get updated models in some fashion too, so hopefully we see a couple, although I'm a bit torn on new spider riders, on the one hand they need new sculpts, on the other I would need to repaint nearly my whole army. What I would like most is a new scuttleboss kit that also builds non hero variants like pusgoyle blightlords (I know that kit bothers people, but its also efficient and imo a kit like that is preferable to just one or the other) It wouldn't take much to put spiders in a decent spot honestly, just giving the scuttleboss the pre-battletome Command ability (Spider venom on 5s and 6s), or giving that command ability to the subfaction would go a LONG way to adding consistency to the army.

Just got my second game in with my spiderfang army, this time against nighthaunt (he was playing a hexwraith list). We did scorched earth and I ended up losing by a very small margin. Allegiance: Gloomspite GitzLeadersScuttleboss on Gigantic Spider (100)- General- Command Trait: Monstrous Mount- Artefact: Totem of the Spider GodWebspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (280)- Artefact: Headdress of Many Eyes- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Sneaky DistractionWebspinner Shaman (80)- Artefact: Nibbla's 'Itty Ring- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Scuttling TerrorsBattleline15 x Spider Riders (300)15 x Spider Riders (300)5 x Spider Riders (100)BehemothsArachnarok Spider with Flinger (220)Arachnarok Spider with Spiderfang Warparty (220)BattalionsArachnarok Spider Cluster (100)Spider Rider Skittermob (120)Spiderfang Stalk (110)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsScuttletide (30)Soulsnare Shackles (40)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 3Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 122 My experience so far has been that the units are pretty inconsistent. Arachnaroks are just too slow with a base that size, so its very difficult to position them around terrain, and get them where you need them. The 5 man unit of spider riders just grabs objectives and/or dies which is fine, and the 15 man units are large enough to be able to take some lighter hits and be able to hit back effectively. In this game one 15 man unit got blown down to 9, then did some work, while the other one was an overpriced objective grabber. Scuttleboss always puts out good damage with this build and I managed to get the double mortal spell on him this game before he got blown up (6 wounds on a 4+ is super squishy). The game went pretty well overall but my biggest gripe about spiderfang in general is the weak support, without the totem, arachnarok spell, or bad moon the units just don't hit hard enough, and none of those effects are reliable, the totem is only a small 12" bubble, and a +1 to cast just doesn't cut it anymore. I was tempted to try out Jaws of Mork, since you can give a webspinner shaman the command trait for battleshock rerolls, but monstrous mount is just too tempting. Not quite sure how I should revise the list, if I swap out the 2 arachnaroks for skitterstrands and drop the stalktribe and cluster for a skitterstrand nest that would give me 140 points leftover, then if I dropped shackles I could fit another scuttleboss and a madcap maybe? Although squeezing in some fellwaters could be useful

Gitz are definitely on the lower end of the power scale, and Fyreslayers are definitely near the top because hearthguard are so powerful. DoK are also quite good, but its probably a bad matchup since Squigs(possibly all of gloomspite) don't really have any way to effectively break the synergy combos in DoK. I've only gotten one game in with Jaws of Mork, but I'm considering the value of 12 man squig herd units, I used a few big ones in my game which were ok but exploded as expected. Running them as respawning Kamikaze screens backed up by Bounderz might be an interesting way to take them. They're cheap, with 12 only being 140 points, hit hard, and can still be fairly quick. 5" move with rerolls on run and charge, 3" bonus move from the loonboss and access to run and charge. The only downside is not fitting into a battalion well.

@Maddpainting I'm a bit skeptical of tzaangors in 10s, it seems like they lose a lot of power when they drop under 9 models. It feels like paired weapons is a trap to me though. +1 to hit is great, but for tzaangors 3 out of every 5 is already using a better weapon anyways. I might try playing with some 10 man units more often though and see how it plays out, maybe i'm underestimating them.

Hey guys, I've just started looking into expanding into BoC for my Tzeentch army, I was hoping the mortal side of Tzeentch would get some buffs so that Tzaangors could fit better but those didn't happen so I'm looking into playing phantasmogoria of fate under Tzeentch allegiance. I'm also aready sold on Slaangors based on box art alone but I'll cross that bridge when they release. I've started to put together a list but I'm not really that familiar with BoC units. So far I've got this: Allegiance: TzeentchTzaangor Shaman (150)10 x Ungors (60)- Mauls & Half-Shields20 x Tzaangors (360)20 x Tzaangors (360)Phantasmagoria of Fate (180)Total: 1110 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400 I'm definitely going to fit in some skyfires, but is that too many tzaangors? Is there any other unit I should try to fit in?

Cult of the Transient form is really only for people who like Cult of the Transient form. I love it from a narrative perspective, but it doesn't play the way you want it to and has the worst CA/Artifact/Trait in spite of the inconsistent ability. It would really benefit from reductions in cost to the units/battalions it wants to use though. I've been struggling with deciding on how I want to build/paint up my Tzeentch army. Does anyone have any experience with the Beasts of Chaos "Phantasmogoria of Fate" battalion with the Tzeentch allegiance? The battalion is the same cost as the Tzaangor coven, with a weaker effect, but is a lot less restrictive, and can fit all of your battleline. The battalion can also fit more enlightened skyfires in than I would ever need, but also gives access to Centigors, Dragon Ogors, Bullgors, bestigors, Cygors, Ghorgons, Tuskgor Chariots, Gors, Ungors, and heroes. I'd plan on bringing at least one Bray shaman(maybe Grashrak?) for the movement buff, but do any of these other units contribute much to Tzeentch? I threw together a couple comparison lists, Phantasmogoria gives me a lot of wiggle room to fit in other things, while Tzaangor coven hits 2k points just by running a single 6x disc enlightened and 2 20x tzaangor units, and you really want the 6x disc enlightened to take advantage of the battalion effect, and tzaangors aren't that strong in 10s. Allegiance: TzeentchTzaangor Shaman (150)10 x Ungors (60)- Mauls & Half-Shields20 x Tzaangors (360)20 x Tzaangors (360)Phantasmagoria of Fate (180)Total: 1110 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 96 Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Hosts ArcanumTzaangor Shaman (150)20 x Tzaangors (360)20 x Tzaangors (360)3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)3 x Tzaangor Enlightened (100)6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)Tzaangor Coven (180)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 152

Destruction needs more Kunnin' and less Brutal. Gitmob/Grotback would be the best thing to bring that into the forefront. Gitmob can be paper thin light cavalry (snarlfangs) supported by snarlfang pulled gun platforms (chariot war machines), and possibly the return of snotlings and pump wagons (since who doesn't love pump wagons). With the named character being a reimagined version of Grom. Gitmob already hail from Hysh as well. Ruleswise they can focus on getting powerful bonuses for meeting requirements to make them feel like sneaky backstabbin grots. Stuff like "kick 'em while they're down": Reroll wound rolls in melee if the target unit has suffered any wounds this turn "pack tactics": Reroll hit rolls for units (and their mounts, wolves are pack animals) if there is another friendly unit within 3" of the target unit "fading shot": Units can retreat and still shoot Grotback can be different by being a more elite goblin force, using looted K.O equipment The book can have a "little waaagh!" allegiance like big waaagh! but for grots, which could serve as a powerful magic based subfaction for destruction, since there would be an incredibly varied spell lore with useful wizards, and the allegiance can provide extra casting power. Ideally this faction would be the reverse of big waaagh! with the grots starting out confident and powerful, but losing steam if it starts looking like they might not win.

I really don't want to see a 3.0, but i'll make a wishlist anyways. Priority rolls remain: battles are unpredictable and so are games, it forces adaptation. Most of the "Problems" result from poor army/warscroll design and the idea of a double turn is largely fine in a game with a heavier focus on melee combat Strengthen look out sir: either make it a -2, pass off wounds on a 4+, or readjust line of sight rules so models can't be spotted as easily ("my archer can see your wizard's staff over your troll so I can shoot it") maybe something as as simple as larger bases block line of sight to smaller bases if they're 7 or less wounds. Points going digital: print them in battletomes/ghb if you want, but make them accessibly digitally for free and put more cool stuff like battleplans and Anvil of apotheosis in the GHB DO NOT POINT UNIT OPTIONS: I've been dabbling in 40k a bit since the new edition after dropping it for a few years and the way points is laid out is awful, a unit's weapons are not built into their cost, so in order to figure out the cost of something you need to reference: the warscoll, the unit points table, and possibly several equipment point tables. Its just too much, and doesn't add anything of value, since different equipment has vastly different values on different units anyways. Keep the core rules as small as possible: 40k has way too many rules that should be moved from being keywords in the rule book, to information on the warscroll. This is something AoS already does that is great and hopefully won't change. The less things we need to reference the better. Reduced amount of bravery 10 and army wide battleshock immunity. I think battleshock immunity is fine if there are restrictions on it. Destruction to finally get some narrative focus (and characters, the entire GA only has 2 named characters with rules) return of gitmob (Rippa's snarlfangs are way too cool to be a one off) Proper rewrites of monster warscrolls, it seems that recently they've gotten the hang of it with the giant cows, and hopefully gargants follow suit. Clarity on what sources are matched play legal, and for how long, and which aren't New beasts of chaos models, Every "new" BoC model is amazing, but the line is so old. That new Slaangor looks amazing, I don't even play the army but I don't think I could resist if they had a few more newer sculpts like that, I've already got way too many Tzaangor for my Tzeentch army Anvil of Apotheosis built into new battletomes

This thread moves too quickly to keep track of sometimes, so forgive me if it has already been covered, but do we have any hints/rumors as to what some of the shattered realm books might be? The first was announced to be Morathi, which looks like it will contain DoK, Idoneth, and maybe slaanesh (alongside slaaneshi mortals). I recall hints at something happening between gitz and seraphon though, which makes me think seraphon and gitz and something to do with the bad moon, which could be interesting because theoretically slann would have an interest in such a strange celestial body, and have the ability to land on it. In the Mysteries of the mortal realms article there was also a section questioning if giant lizards lived on the bad moon. Were there any other hints for other factions dropped? Given the state of gitz, it might make sense for them to be the second book, and it would be a good excuse to release some new seraphon sculpts. I know some are expecting Nagash or Allarielle second, but I'm not familiar with any story threads for them to pick up with, Sylvaneth vs Nurgle has been going on for ages , and Nagash has been driving the plot for the entire edition already (by proxy for Wrath of the Everchosen where Katakros takes the lead).

Its the same composition as the squig rider stampede, which puts it in direct competition. I feel like this could be better for hoppers since they might be fast enough without the rerolls on their move. Also despite the Loonboss on great cave squig not being a part of the battalion, the attack profile for his squig is listed as one of the attacks that gets buffed.

Maybe he's pointed for the list that spams MSU brutes to get a crazy powerful wrath of Gork?

Something to keep in mind about a potential mancrusher rebox is that back near the start of the year jan/feb? The aleguzzler got a new box, which I noticed didn't mention any factions at all on it, it also was brought back into GW stores after not being stocked in stores for a while. It also got a price increase fairly recently.

I'd definitely still consider him in Big Waaagh!, which could probably still manage to get some magic out with the right build. The combination of bonesplitterz and ironjawz buffs on it make it very powerful.

I'm wondering about subfactions and allegiances, which as a rule, do not have points associated with them, if this applied to allegiances literally nothing would be usable in matched play without your opponent's agreement. The guess part is the bit that bothers me.

I know battalions tend to be matched play legal until the next ghb, since it is the "next publication" for a faction but my question is specifically regarding things that do not have point costs attached to them, which means they wouldn't be printed in the GHB in the first place. At the moment there is no rule for things that aren't battalions (unless I just can't find it), unless we're just supposed to guess or assume that white dwarf is a less legitimate source than something like wrath of the everchosen. Since it doesn't seem GW has made a distinction, either all of it is legal, or all of it is illegal, as long as there aren't newer publications for it. I'm not fond of just having players arbitrarily decide what is matched play legal and what isn't based on how "legitimate" we consider a source book. If we were to go strictly by what allegiances are in the ghb it would make big WAAAGH!!! illegal, which is absurd, and so is the idea of stuff from wrath of the everchosen (although the battalions are now illegal in matched play)

Do we know if subfactions, and allegiances printed in supplemental books like white dwarf and wrath of the everchosen become illegal for matched play after the general's handbook release? We know battalions with matched play points not in the GHB are not legal (RIP wrath of the everchosen battalions), but there is nothing in the GHB or FAQ as to how it pertains to subfactions and allegiances (like Syll'Esske's host, legion of grief, knights of the empty throne, etc.) since these don't have matched play points.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/04/white-dwarf-preview-issue-455/ It seems the Jaws of Mork is actually a new squig allegiance, not just a couple battalions. I am over the moon in excitement!

9 club attacks vs a 5+ save: expected 5.33 damage (4.89 if target is rerolling 1s, 3.56 if target is rerolling saves) 9 club attacks vs a 4+ save: expected 4 damage (3.33 if target is rerolling 1s, 2 if target is rerolling saves) 9 club attacks vs a 3+ save: expected 2.67 damage (1.78 if target is rerolling 1s, 0.89 if target is rerolling saves) 6 hacker attacks vs a 5+ save: expected 5 damage (4.83 if target is rerolling 1s, 4.33 if target is rerolling saves) 6 hacker attacks vs a 4+ save: expected 4 damage (3.67 if target is rerolling 1s, 3 if target is rerolling saves) 6 hacker attacks vs a 3+ save: expected 3 damage (2.5 if target is rerolling 1s, 2 if target is rerolling saves) As you can see they numbers favor the gargant hackers against anything with rerolls or saves higher than a 4+. However, the clubs will actually come up on top in almost all cases once you factor in the ironfist triggers, as you only need 1 to outdo the hacker against anything other than a 3+ rerollable.