Nico

From memory, the Dracoths have 4 shots hitting on 3s, which do 2 mortal wounds if they hit from memory (admittedly only at point blank range - half that otherwise) as well as the Crossbows. They also have 3+ saves rerolling ones and can potentially be in cover. I cannot overemphasise how big a deal debuffs to hit are in the land of exploding attacks and mortal wounds etc.. This is why the Mourngul is so widely complained about. If you've already got 2 Fulminators then buff them up to 4 would be my suggestion and run them as a 4! Frankly a LCoD is a good alternative to a unit of 2 Knights (other than the Tempestors), since he has comparable damage output and the lethal shield mechanic (and you might have an artefact to spare). I've considered using two of my Fulminators as LCoDs (with conversions back to the good hammer).

Looking forward to watching this!

I think they are ok at 2,000 points. They can do some nasty things and have a huge advantage of surprise (the "oh so they can do that" factor) because of their rarity. However, they do this from about 5 Warscrolls - Aurics, Vulkites, the Battlesmith and the two Runesmiters. If you bunker then Hearthguard Berserkers are also good. They have a lot of complete junk (both Runesons and two of the Battalions, the Runemaster is potentially worth negative points in many games). Lords of the Lodge is ok, but the combat buff is really hard to use unless you want to play bunker style. As I'm finding for Firestorm Fours, they are extremely vulnerable to comp packs (both battalions are crippled by comp - no stacking the armour save buff on the same unit and no +3 predeclared to one initiative roll). They are probably a difficult match up for Ironjawz, since they either will bunker with crazy defences that Ironjawz may bounce off, or they will say "fine, cover the 24 inches in turn one, we'll just stay underground until we need to come out and kill a third of your army and grab an objective".

Nominative determinism for the win. Karl Battlesmith.... I was gutted I didn't get more of a chance to talk to him at Blood & Glory - I used Fyreslayers for the 500 and the 1,000. They do have some strengths but need an allegiance pack even more than Ironjawz do. Great to see him doing well. We've exchanged Tweets since the event. This is one of their best things. Sadly their elite Hearthguard Berserkers are just a bit meh for their cost (they look a lot better on paper than they are on the table) - bunkering may work on some Battleplans but really doesn't work on most of them. Well done!

Try them before you write them off. I think they are a hidden gem in the Stormcast army. They are the only Dracoth Cavalry that actually function reliably as a unit of 2 models . This is entirely down to their automatic and doesn't even need to hit the target (like the Screaming Skull Catapult) -1 to hit debuff, which (a) is colossal - reducing the output of a 4+ to hit unit by a third (double what mystic shield does); and (b) stacks with the other unit of 2 Tempestors; and (c) stacks with any other -1 to hit debuffs that you might happen to have. 2 units of Fulminators can counter Kunning Rukk Arrer Boyz by having a 35/36 save. 2 Units of Tempestors can send them back to rolling to hit on sixes (including the Bellowing Shout or Broken Spirits Spell) and not exploding at all - save you about an hour of your life and it's an autowin for you. The only downside is that they are slightly out of range turn one. If you take 2 Fulminators, they will disappoint you so much - nothing is more reliable than 3+, 3+, -1 rend, 3 damage. Concussors are great, but very pricey. Their Dracoth shooting attack is also very strong. That said, the buff from the new battatlion is good for the Dracoth (it does make Prime Time more reliable and he's normally very hard to buff since from memory he rocks up in the movement phase not the hero phase). (I would warn that the Lightning Echelon battalion is very weak however, splitting the Fulminators into two units of 2 is a disaster and the charge through mechanic is incredibly hard to pull off because of the difficulty of getting over enemy bases.)

It seems likely that they will not have points, but they are labelled as "Battleforces" (as I recall) and are post GH as you say, so worth hoping for.

Good analysis. I'd forgotten that Brutes with a Warchanter would be a 75% shot to hit if they were +1 and -1 to hit with a reroll vs an Ancient. Briarsheath is great vs exploding attacks and mortal wound mechanics (I know that you know this already Aaron), which Ironjawz don't have (even Gordrakk gets special effects on wound rolls not hit rolls), but I'm increasingly leaning towards 2+ rerolling ones, ignoring rend of -1.

Since the buff works on both Prime Time himself and on Pew Pew, that's a pretty good buff. The Skarr one is also decent if you make one of the units really big. 15 Wrathbros anyone?

To the extent that it's 35% Ironjawz, namely a single notable hero, here's a link to my army's exploits and mishaps so far at Blood & Glory (half way through game 3). Happy to collate some detailed thoughts on Gordrakk for this thread as well. In short, he's overcosted (at least given the amount of terrain on a typical board) at present (I only realised how awful his big base and movement 12 is later on in the event), but still an option for other Destruction armies. If he goes down in price as requested by many for GH v2, he'll become a competitive option again for Ironjawz - the +2 attacks buff is huge. He's great in some match ups - the greatest hard counter to wizards in the game if he can touch them. 4 of the 6 games were Destruction vs Destruction, so probably of some interest to Ironjawz players from that perspective (especially since Fanatics, Thundertusks, Kunning Rukk and Stonehorns are some of the possible hard counters to Ironjawz.

Good luck on getting the final place (someone probably will not be able to make it given it's in January right - normally a busy time of year). Cheers. I should have been more specific - the rend point was really about the contrast between regular Greenskinz and Ironjawz. Regular Greenskinz are 10 models for 100 battleline with rend -1 on single handed weapons - there are hardly any battleline units that meet this description (Vulkites with picks and shields) - their stats aren't amazing otherwise, but still - really good! Ardboyz only get rend if they take the Big Choppas (which isn't great). Brutes do get -1 rend, but they have their own issues (as discussed variously by the whole thread and especially you above). A nice to have in any army would be to have an elite unit or something that has -2 rend somewhere - at the moment only the Brute Boss has that option (cf Archai, Scythe Hunters, Bullgors, Stormfiends with Doom Flayers - everyone is asking what are Doom Flayers? Where do I get my Warpfire Throwers). Admittedly Khorne don't have an option I can think of in that regard (Wrathbros would be the equivalent). At the moment Ironjawz only have that on their expensive heroes; the Brute Boss; and the Megaboss (Krunk or otherwise). They don't have a cheap monster than can be buffed - perhaps the Gargant imminently? For a time this wasn't an issue, as Duardin (ignoring rend of -1) and Temple Guard (ignoring rend of -1) drifted out of fashion. However, more recently the Sylvaneth are rocking a 2+ save rerollable, ignoring rend of -1 on their Ancients and Durthus - before they tack on mystic shield and shield of thorns. I know you've been schooling the Sylvaneth repeatedly (I cannot remember whether Aaron is going for Briarsheath (also a brilliant option) instead of Oaken Armour or using Alarielle as the general), but it's something that concerns me.

The rumour on this is that this will be clarified in the way that helps Death players. I specifically suggested carving out arcane bolt from the Rule of One (but obviously not mystic shield). Wizards need a buff (as do Tzeentch) relative to shooting (although changing the rule of one to only successful casts is a bad fix - since it punishes elite wizards, who have a value as a reliable mystic shield at least). Spells that hard counter shooting are needed as a priority (e.g. that make it -2 to hit friendly units within a distance with shooting only) - could be on a difficult cast roll. The mechanics on Batswarms and Neferata just don't work (or are suicidally risky) versus Kunning Rukk etc.. I think Kroak is about right where he is - powerful as he can reroll initiative rolls and for an extra 100 points he can get on the Balewind, but only one AOE attack per turn, so not crazy - summoning is fine as it is - it's an option but not an auto-include. I've slowly moved towards seeing rerolling/changing the initiative rolls as a benefit to the game - certainly the options that are available feel like they are costed as if they can do this.

As you may know, @scrubyandwells ran a community points for Ironjawz project - which ended up suggesting a lot of these changes. He posted those comments on the thread and/or elsewhere. I've put similar comments in the thread as well. Ironjawz are flatly underpowered at the moment - they are fundamentally worse than Greenskinz in the General's Handbook at the moment - far worse synergies, no easy access to rend (Orruks are battleline which have rend -1), lower model count which matters in most battleplans. Greenskinz' one battalion replicates the Ironfist movement and yet is also faster (because they add two to their run rolls) and gives a big combat buff too. Above all else Greenskinz can mix in any number of Destruction toys from other factions (of which there are so many good choices cf. Chaos where 75% of the Grand Alliance Warscrolls are essentially useless/redundant even if what's left does include some strong stuff - Skaven, Legion, Sayl, Little Archaon, Bloodbound and to some extent Nurgle), whereas Ironjawz can only do this if they have (in practice) at least 6 combat units (3 in Ironfist and 3 other battleline units). This leads them down the treacherous path of melee MSU where they risk being crushed by a small number of larger buff stacked units or battleshocked off by shooting. Oddly the only thing I've re-evaluated my respect for is the Weirdnob Shaman, who does offer a lot - +1 to cast is massive, +2 to cast is epic (however, he too would be better in a Greenskinz army). In addition to points, I've suggested that Ardboyz be inherent battleline. Ideally they will have this and an allegiance pack (marginally better than the Destruction one) - so you'll have a choice between sticking to allegiance or not and a cost-benefit analysis to this.

Surely the bleeding torsos of Stormcast Eternals are appropriate Ardboy shields?

One small suggestion on the scoring system would be to make a minor loss and a draw worth a small amount of points (the major loss can still be worth zero). I'm aware that a draw is very rare. While I preferred your system to the 20-0 scoring system from Clash Comp (which is slightly too complicated/too many objectives), the advantage it does have is that even if you've lost the game during deployment (which is probably most games even if you don't realise it until much later) and you do in fact realise this by the end of battleround one or even in the very first hero phase, there's still an incentive to try to limit the outcome to a minor loss (or grab minor objectives in Clash) - you've still got something to play for. I should add that none of my games at Blood & Glory in the main event were like this - all of them were cliff hangers. I suppose one counter argument is that this would make the Take & Hold battleplan even more likely to end in a minor victory/minor loss than it is already.

I'd just add that at 1,000 points (let alone 500) monsters become a lot stronger than at 2,000. Balance can only really be measured and decided at one points level. Classic examples include the Arachnorok and two units of Spider Riders: Despite having said models, I foolishly left them at home and brought the mighty Fyreslayers.... The Stonelord is also obscene at 1,000 points with Battlebrew.

Yep - the rock paper scissors (or hard counters) aspect of the game is crucial. Just need a Tzeentch lore spell which forces a ranged unit to shoot itself and the game will be perfect.

The problem is that if you're packing in the models, then you're liable to have 2 units pinned by a single Fanatic. Which they will then do again in the next turn. More of a problem if the Fanatics are guarding the usual Kunning Rukk autodelete everything within range that isn't on a 2+ rerolling ones save - especially monsters.

Interesting - horn Spam looks good. I am wondering if Fanatics would really spoil the party though!

I agree with the above post. To sum up - Chaos allegiance pack is the third best after Ward Save (I mean Death) and Destruction, which is where it should be given how strong Chaos are (lots of choice and strong units/combos mostly through Skaven, Bloodbound and Sayl). They have got at least 3 Traits and 3 Artefacts worth considering, which is more than Order can say. There are some real duds in there like the Gem, but the Order ones are way worse.

There's an amended version of the pack up now - v2.1. Please let us know if you cannot open that one either.

Cheers @scrubyandwells I don't think Tree Revenants should have 2 wounds and moreover the GH amendments aren't likely to change unit stats like that (FAQ answers or clarifications might change how rules on a Warscroll work). I agree that they aren't a great unit, but I'm aware that many people consider Sylvaneth to be overpowered at the same time, hence the modest suggestions.

You could teleport Thanquol next to a unit and do an average of 7 mortal wounds to it (for only 820 points). Or you could hit any unit with the temerity to stand 3 inches off their backline with 6 mortal wounds on a 2+ from 340 point Huskard on Thundertusk....

I built and played a Fatesworn Warband - it was ok. I still foresee Judicators being better than arcane bolt Spam since Judicators can move 5 and shoot 24, whereas Horrors can move zero and bolt 18. Even if you summon one in range - that's a chance of doing one third of a Snowball at a good effective range.

Good point. They could do to Throt what they did to Ikit (and ideally put him on a monster too) - make him generic. Odd that the Warlord on BH is not Moulder when the BH is Moulder.

As I have a suspicion from Twitter that the GH might be being amended sooner rather than later, here are my key suggestions as to changes. I've kept points changes to a minimum and only gone for the really key ones. @Ben @scrubyandwells Command Traits Tenacious should be +2 to wounds chracteristic. Master of Defence should be on a roll of 5 or more. Artefacts Battlebrew changed to one use per game (cf. Quicksilver potion) or only works on to wound rolls and does D3 damage in subsequent hero phases for a double swig. Relic Blade should add 2 to the damage. Obstinate Blade should add -2 rend. Talisman of Blinding Light should be -2 to hit for the entire of a Battleround. Chaos Talisman should be clarified that it only works on wounds and not on mortal wounds (this is what it says literally). Rules of One Consider carving Arcane Bolt out of the first Rule of One. Wizards to need a buff wrt shooting and this shouldn't get out of hand. It will buff Tzeentch and the Fatesworn Warband will be useable again. I don't suggest changing the first Rule of One so that it only applies to successful casts, as opposed to attempts. There should be a value attached to reliable mystic shield wizards, e.g. Arkhan the Black. Battleplans Three Places of Power Add a note to point out that heroes set up on an objective cannot score if they don't subsequently move that turn (e.g. Runesmiter using Magmic Tunneling or Cairn Wraith summoned onto the objective). Escalation That Battleplan could be amended so that in the fourth battleround - everything remaining from the 3 waves comes on irrespective of position of the enemy units (i.e. remove the 12 inch rule at that point). Or the equivalent. Then there would be a reasonable risk reward in playing to block the second and third wave. This avoids "non-games" such as the one that happened to Russ Veal at Blood and Glory. Put into words the explanation of how this rule interacts with Battalions and special deployment rules, e.g. (I'm not suggesting this word for word, merely that this is an attempt to capture some of the nuances in this battleplan). Let's take Gnarlroot and say there are 10 units in the army. You do count the number of units irrespective of battalions and things like Runesmiters (don't think about "drops" it just makes thing more confusing). There are 10 units, so this becomes waves of 4, 4, 2. I trust that's clear for everyone but please ask. For deployment, you can still deploy the first wave of 4 units using the battalion rules. In particular you can deploy part of a battalion as a single drop then deploy the rest as multiple drops thereafter (the only thing you cannot seem to do is deploy a single unit from the battalion, then the rest of the battalion as a single drop - see the hints that introduce Warscroll Battalions in each Battletome - it's not 100% flexible). So you could deploy a unit of Tree Revenants and 2 units of Dryads and an Ancient as your first wave as a single drop. You have to put all the Battleline units in wave 1 (unless you have an overflow of Battleline units into wave 2 - e.g. Ironjawz could have this problem since all their units will be battleline and they are often Multiple Small Units. You could put the Tree Revenants and the Ancient on the table and the Dryads in the Hidden Enclaves if you wish. You don't have to deploy something even if you've paid for it (see the core rules, you can stop deploying when you like), so you can junk the formation and lose the points and the buffs (you might want to do this with Ghoul Patrol if you've messed up the unit count). Wave 2 would then be 4 units of whatever - in your hero phase you can deploy these to your Hidden Enclaves if you wish or onto the table. You start shooting yourself in the foot when the battalion requires that everything deploy together, Clan Skryre, Skyborne Slayers and Ghoul Patrol are examples. Here you have to keep deploying waves off the table to "fill up" the Engine Coven, battalion etc.. This is a major reason why Warrior Brotherhood is preferred to Skyborne Slayers. Compendium Units I'm assuming that the decision makers will want to cull much of the Compendium including named characters, Brets and Tomb Kings. Could you please spare the following from execution: Battalions for armies such as Greenskinz (they have a start collecting box, so can hardly be seen as legacy), Moonclan, Gitmob, Spiderfang, Warherd (and release an FAQ that specifies more clearly that they are backwards compatible, e.g. Grot = Goblin, ). The Goblin Warboss (Gitmob). As a far lower priority, the Screaming Skull Catapult. Factions Sylvaneth Consider increasing the cost of Gnarlroot Wargrove a tad. Reduce Spite Revenant cost to 80 points for 5 OR make them inherent Battleline. Reduce Tree Revenant cost to 90 points for 5 (there are units that are not a multiple of 20, like Fanatics). Increase the cost of Free Spirits (rather than comping out its ability to do an alpha strike), e.g. double the cost at least. Bonesplitterz Change the model cap for Bonesplitter Arrer Boyz to 20. Also increase their cost to 10 for 140. Increase Savage Orruks to 10 for 120. Greenskinz Reduce Orruk Great Shaman to 100 points. Ironjawz Change Orruk Ardboys to inherent battleline. This would be the most beneficial change. Implement the community suggestions on Ironjawz pricing: (these are from the email @scrubyandwells sent, I cannot seem to find the thread - sorry): Gordrakk, the Fist of Gork - 620 Megaboss on Maw Krusha 460 Orruk Weirdnob Shaman - 100 Orruk Gore-Gruntas - 160 for 3 Ironfist - 80 Beastclaw Raiders Huskard on Thundertusk increased to 400 points. Fyreslayers Fyreslayers could do with an allegiance pack please - more than any other faction. The Order allegiance pack is duplicative of many of their abilities. Perhaps double the number of units a Runesmiter can tunnel with an artefact. Command traits could make their Magmadroths tougher or faster or in some way worth their costs. A +1 to armour or reroll saves artefact like Oaken Armour would also be handy. Everchosen Reduce Archaon to 640 points. Reduce Varanguard to 300 for 3 (or ideally 100 for 1). Death Nagash down to 840 or Allegiance Pack Deathlords please where he knows the full lore of spells. Mannfred down to 420. Neferata down to 400. Clarify that Zombies can merge freely. Morghast Archai down to 2 for 200 (Morghast Harbingers are viable as they are). Chaos Clan Skryre Battalion up to 300 points. A Clan Moulder Allegiance Pack would be very welcome. Rat Ogres become Battleline for Moulder. The Glottkin down to 440. Thanquol down to 460. Screaming Bell down to 200. Tamurkhan down to 420. Drazhoath down to 340. Slaughterbrute down to 180. Mutalith Vortex Beast down to 200. Daemonettes down to 100 for 10. Pink Horrors down to 120 for 10. Infernal Guard Castellan down to 80 (one of the worst command abilities in the game due to its range - not being a unit visible to the target). Bull Centaurs down to 140 for 3. Monstrous Arcanum Rogue Idol down to 440. Carmine Dragon down to 440. Troll Hag down to 360. If someone takes a Squig Gobba - they receive an extra Triumph Roll. Skaarac down to 440 Thoughts welcome. Always happy to discuss.