Nasrod

Jesus, I'm absolutely crushed. My brain has intentionally missed the "melee" portion of these attack bonus stat blocks since...forever. My heart aches. Thank you for crushing the last minor joy I had from this book. Time to dive headfirst into Idoneth and enjoy having the option of playing a variety of units instead of spamming effecient battleline. Pain. I feel only pain.

Reminder: everyone in the topic is sleeping on harpies. Khinerai Heartrenders are insane with Morathi. Morathi + 20 Heartrenders is our new deathstar. Morathi is so damn strong and the Khinerai basically serve as insurance to make sure she never gets bogged down or tarpitted and can keep marching across the map.

Zainthar Kai Morathi Beeg and Morathi Leetle - 600 Witch Elf x 10 - 120 [Dual Blades] Witch Elf x 10 - 120 [Dual Blades] Witch Elf x 10 - 120 [Dual Blades] Khinerai Heartrenders x 20 - 360 Khinerai Heartrenders x 20 - 360 Khinerai Heartrenders x 15 - 270 Command Point - 50 2000/2000 Is this going to win? Nah, probably not. Will it give your friend trust issues for the rest of their life when you get the bottom of turn 1 --> top of turn 2 double turn? Yes.

Need 2 units of Stalkers for legal Temple Nest. 20 Sisters is probably the best discount in the game. I agree it's unwieldy but the difference between 15 bodies and 20 is 60 points. 60 points for another 10 wounds is crazy, especially since shooting meta dictates you go MinSUs to make shooting ineffecient or MaxSUs able to survice firing squad. Splitting the Stalkers into 2 sets of 5 = Less targets. If anything, dropping from 15 to 10 Sisters in order to obtain a 2nd 10 man unit of Stalkers could be okay, or bump to one large group of 15 to capitalize on Morathi CA. Motathi may be your main force but she needs to use her CA or else she isn't worth her points, and the big Sisters block needs as many bodies as possible to try and make it in range with a sizeable amount of fight. Either way, the sheer fact we're trying to squeeze all these in points wise is a huge red flag to the real issues here: Snakes are too expensive, fragile, not offensively powerful enough to threaten in MinSU blocks, and too low on model count to bully objectives. Not all of these weaknesses need to be addressed, but until one or two is, this is way more effort than Witch Elves backed by Hags and a Cauldron for far less result.

You didn't actually allocate points for Temple Nest here. I think the best list you can fit similar to this structure would be: Morathi - 600 Medusa - 140 20 Sisters - 480 5 Sisters - 140 5 Sisters - 140 5 Stalkers - 140 5 Stalkers - 140 Spell Portal - 80 / 5 Heartenders 90 Nest - 130 1990/2000 or 2000/2000 Portal if you value the 2 drop, Heartrenders if you want the extra mobility to help with objectives, which you probably need as this list is low on bodies and wounds count.

It's an incredible shame that Stormcast and Idoneth have come out better than DoK in the book revolving around the antics of their figurehead. Morathi may be better, but her points increase is akin to the issue maligning Bonereapers at this time in that Katakros and Nagash are fantastic, but they eat so many points that attempting to use your remaining points on anything but effecient battleline fighters is a death sentence. Normally this would be fine, except the memory of Slaugher Queen + 3 Hags + 90 Witch Elves + 10 Khinerai is burned in every player's mind, despite it being made far more manageable in GHB 2018 and continuously nerfed even up to GHB2020. There is promise on the surface of these changes, but Morathi + Snakes will not work until she unlocks both sculpts as battleline. The true miss here is that we needed a Khinerai hero, not an additional Melusai that does absolutely nothing. I'm probably canceling my Shadow and Pain preorder. Slaanesh and DoK have both been overly hit with price hikes and desperately needed leaders that could enable new lists. Instead we got a Slaanesh hero beatstick to play second fiddle to existing Keepers and Daemon Princes, and a Melusai hero that tasks Melusai units with letting the opponent swing into them for the chance of making them better at the cost of 140 points and yet again no battleline unlocks. While Morathi is amazing, she is poison for the future of list creativity.The best thing Daughters got out of this book is unironically allying in Sharks to prevent pile in. What a cruel joke. Hopefully the Nighthaunt overhaul will be better.

A big wishlist of changes I dream of every night: Glaivewraith Stalkers - Fight first if charged, new points 60/220, new unit size 5/20. Dreadscythe Haridans - Units suffering casualties from this unit cannot benefit from Inspiring Presence. Grimghast Reapers - New unit size of 5/20, 80/300 points change Bladegheist Revenants - Rend 2 Hexwraiths and Black Coach - Wave of Terror trigger on a roll of 9+ Spirit Hosts - Can Deep Strike in place of movement. Lady Olynder goes to 9 wounds and provides a wholly within 24" +5 Deathless Aura, gains +1 to casts and unbinds. Regens D3 wounds to ANY 3 nighthaunt units wholly within 18". 320 points. Myrmidon Banshees - Considered at full stength for the purpose of dispels if wholly within 12" of Lady Olynder. Lord Reikenor goes to 2 casts per turn and points increase of 30 points. Goes to 8 wounds. Kurdoss Valentian becomes a monster with brackets and 12 wounds. Regenerates D3 summonable wounds to 3 units wholly within 32" degrading to 12" as he is bracketed over time. Can spend a command point to allow a units in that same range to run and charge. At the start of each turn, pick an enemy unit; Nighthaunt units gain +1 to wave of terror rolls charging the target unit. Dreadblade Harrow - Command Trait to swap places with a unit wholly within 24" at the end of the movement phase. Lord Executioner - Hits on a 4+ and deals D3 Mortal Wounds per hit. Factions: Phantasmal: Missile attacks are made at -1 to hit from 12"-23", -2 to hit from 24"-35", and -3 to hit from 36" or further. Cursewarded: Heroes with Wizard keyword and Nighthaunt wholly within 12" of those Heroes gain +4 shrug against Mortal Wounds Honorbound: Battleline units in this army may soak wounds from Heroes within 6" on a 4+ Heartstoppers: Nighthaunt units in this faction force Battleshock tests to be taken immediately following each attack resolution. Nighthaunt units in this faction never have to take Battleshock tests while wholly within 12" of a hero.

Looks sick, the saturated green really works with that pale white skin. I really feel like a GUO on this scheme would be extremely vile, so that's my vote.

Looking into a casual list that utilizes the Horticulous Slimux + Nurgle Beasts Garden Battalion, a Lord of Afflictions general, and the Drowned Men subfaction. As you can imagine, this is not a waac list. The plan for the battalion is to maximize Feculant Gnarlwoods for summoning points to consistently drop 3 Frogriding Poxbearers onto the table (I adore their sculpts, forgeworld or not). Going for a dying coral reef/toxic sea paint scheme/aesthetic, which I think the beasts of nurgle and frogs will lend themselves beautifully toward. The Blightlord flies will get greenstuffed tentacle mouths; I'm aware of how pillow fisted and overpriced they are when compared to kings, but again, rule of cool. I want the army to look disgustingly appealing. This is essentially "take models that look nifty.list" that I would slow grow as a less miserable list to play against than my usual armies (Daughters, Bonereapers, and Slaanesh...I swear I didn't intentionally become "that guy.") and I'd like opinions on how best to finalize it. Additions can be attempts to make the list not-horrible (Unlikely, as I'm not willing to budge on a majority of the list) or simply suggest sculpts that fit the theme or provide an aesthetic compliment. Horticulous - 220 Beast of Nurgle x 1 ( x 3 seperate units) 210 Garden Battalion - 180 Lord of Afflictions - 190 (General) Gutrot Spume - 140 Blightlords x 2 - 190 Blightking x 10 - 280 Blightlords x 2 - 190 1600/2000 Misc note: I will always summon a unit of Poxriders, highly limiting my summoning options. I'm willing to change up the battleline (Though at minimum I want Lord of Affliction and a unit of Flyguys) with anything non-Marauders (Marauders don't fit the aesthetic I want without heavy conversions). I'm also opposed to 20 man blocks of Blightkings cause...well, I don't want to paint 20 Blightkings, to be quite frank about it. Apologies for the pickiness, and thanks for any and all input.

Cheers for this one. Despite my whinging, I genuinely appreciate learning things like this. Edit: Scurvy has the nail on the head. I feel like building lists and experimenting with the weaker options was thanks to Petrifex. Without it, Katakros soaks up 500 points to return to that same level of durability. And keeping Katakros in good shape means screening...so lists now just kind of build themselves. Still actively painting my Bonereapers and loving it, but the tome at this point needs an overhaul to encourage using half of the model range when it previously did not.

I like the army. I specifically really dislike the book because it drives players toward a very specific playstyle which also makes Crawlers feel very mandatory. It's disingenuous to say "Our book is better than Nighthaunt and Deepkin, so two thumbs up!" Lumineth is an incredible comparison here. They have woeful unit variety in sculpts but they have 3 solid playstyles and almost no bad units. So you end up with, somehow, more army builds here. Teclis magic control. Shooting Wardens. Ymmetrica tankiness. They're all strong in their own way and feel consistent. Bonereapers? Okay well, 2 groups of 20 Mortek Guard. The entire army is slow and needs an incentive to make enemies come to you... our only range weapon is highly volatile and rng dependent. 2 Crawlers fixes the unreliability issue. We also need something that can run ahead and a 3rd battleline, so let's do 5 Kavalos deathriders. The army operates off relentless discipline so we need either a Liege Kavalos or Katakros for the RD as well as the attack up command. And suddenly oh ******, 1300-1600 of our points are accounted for depending on which HQ we chose. How do we differentiate? Well, Stalkers and Morghast are the same role. Harvester is admittedly fantastic but further encourages spamming Mortek Guard. Maybe fill out the Kavalos Deathriders to make them a tarpit? Maybe, but it doesn't fix the fact our army is 4 models... I have posted a few times with lists involving 4 x Morghast Archai in Aegis Immortal ferrying Arkhan around, etc. But the loss of PE save makes those units so fragile that even the points cost reduction of 80 points can't justify it. The line between WAAC toxicity and overcosted, ineffecient garbage is almost entirely correlated with how cool I think the models are. Naturally I'm gonna be salty. But yeah, this was legit an unpopular opinion. The army isn't bad. It is definitively a gatekeeper army. I still enjoy it. But enjoying it was due largely in part to PE allowing me to explore army builfs. I could justify some of the weaker units. "Well hey, at least Vokmortian is a 4+ save, that's pretty durable for a caster. At least these Morghast are a 3+ save, they fly and can really tarpit things, or the Archai can bodyguard Arkhan." Instead, people took blocks of unkillable battleline and 2+ Nagash, made the game miserable for a third of battletomes, and deservedly we got smacked. Except we still curbstomp those matchups, we're just weaker to the Seraphon/Cities/Lumineth/KO/Tzeentch PEWPEW.list and as such are encouraged to build lists to mitigate against them...which just so happen to be the offending meta lists that made people hate us in the first place! Tl;dr This is why I can't have nice things.

Unpopular opinion: Bonereapers is a bad battletome. Petrifex Elite in the same book where Vokmortian is 180 points. Null Myriad and Ivory Host are some of the worst faction designs I've ever seen. Null Myriad is so eye roll inducing; in any world it becomes necessary, you have fundamentally overpushed magic. In any world where it isn't, you're merely griefing your friend who likes Tzeentch. Which sounds hilarious until you push him into becoming part of the problem and joining the meta list of "Horrors and Flamers shoot all the things." Ivory Host is just...yikes. GHB 2020 decided Necropolis Stalkers deserved a larger points reduction than Morghast. Vokmortian is still 180 points. The way you fix Bonereapers is allowing very mutable battleline unlocks between subfactions and General choice. Until they do, there isn't enough points to encourage players to diversify outside the established core of 2 Guard blobs + 2 Crawlers. Katakros becoming the new way to grant +1 save is only further cementing the problem regarding low list diversity. It won't go away at this point until the book gets rewritten, or if a points adjustment does something to make a unit more effecient than Mortek Guard. Love the models. Love the concept. Just wish I could have a chance at claiming objectices without tying up about 1200 points of every list I make to the same core units...

Syar Scinari Cathallar (General) [Spellmaster, Perfect Blade, Lambent Light] Eltharion 30 Wardens 30 Wardens 20 Wardens 10 Sentinels 10 Sentinels 20 Sentinels Auralan Legion Boring list is boring. Goal is to be 2 drops and go first, Lambent Light your 20 Sentinels and just light up an opponent's support hero through mortal wound spam. Scinari and Eltharion do what they can to supplement bravery loss from the quartz spam, they likely die turn 2. 3 blocks of 40 models (Sentinels behind their Wardens but in range for battalion bonus) each march forward in Shining Formation on turn 1. If enemy doubles, your guys are 3+ save rerolling 1s at -1 to hit. If you take top of 2, you drop formation and charge. 1 dimensional and as such, probably not great, but looks potentially powerful, especially if opponent lacks powerful ranged options to properly kill your heroes.

Katakros - 500 Liege-Kavalos - 200 (Sword Rend 3 artifact) Mortisan Boneshaper - 130 Mortek Guard x 20 - 260 Mortek Guard x 10 - 130 Kavalos Deathriders x 5 - 180 Immortis Guard x 3 - 180 Necropolis Stalkers x 3 - 180 Morghast Harbingers x 2 - 190 Nightmare Predator - 40 -- Casual for funsies list, goal being to place a ton of varied units onto the table. Fast units charge to their doom to let Katakros and pals advance. Immortis Guard stick to Katakros to keep his aura at max range for turn 2. Boneshaper is here because the Nightmare Predator is my 2nd favorite model in the line up (Morghasts being favs). I know players are upset about PE nerf, but it makes placing Katakros on the table feel so much more relevant. The points nerf to the big guys also gave me way more freedom to make this list in the first place. Excited for the changes, and relieved to have less of a "that guy" stigma for playing these guys.

Aaaaaand I'm now ordering a Heraldor.

Hey folks. I just inherited 6 Evocator on Dracoline from a great friend who didn't need them. I don't have much interest in a full Stormcast army, but I would love the excuse to get a Cities list started. The sheer amount of options available has me overwhelmed though. I would love some opinions on where these fantastic sculpts would be best utilized within the Cities of Sigmar book. Thanks!

Until Vokmortian is buffed there is no reason to take him. I think a fair buff is he gets +1 to cast and dispel when he's within 12" of an enemy, scaling to +2 if he is within 3" of an enemy general dying. Something to reward how close they want him to enemies. End of the day he is 180 points for 6 wounds base +5 save... absolutely unusable, which is a crime given how amazing his model is.

I want to share the product of a lot of brainstorming and theorycrafting. It's an attempt to use Arkhan as a durable, +2 anchor for casts/unbinds while still maintaining the trademark durability of Petrifiex Elite lists to capitalize off his amazing regeneration passive for as long as possible. That durability is vulnerable most of all to ranged mortal wounds primarily generated through spellcasting; so the tl;dr is: "Protecting Arkhan protects the army." Liege-Kavalos [General] - 200 Mighty Archaeossian, Godbone Plate Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament - 360 Mortisan Boneshaper - 130 Lode of Saturation Kavalos Deathriders x 5 - 180 Mortek Guard x 10 - 130 Mortek Guard x 20 - 260 Immortis Guard x 3 - 200 Immortis Guard x 3 - 200 Morghast Archai x 2 - 210 Bone-Tithe Shrieker - 30 Soulstealer Carrion - 20 Aegis Immortal - 80 2000/2000 | Petrifex Elite | 9 Units, 7 Drops | Approximately 7 RD per turn Being slower than their Harbingers while still wielding a highly unreliable damage output given their points investment, there's not much reason at first glance to ever use the Archai in favor of the Harbingers. However, utilizing the Aegis Immortal battalion to give them the ability to soak wounds from nearby heroes, they gain a fantastic niche that I haven't seen explored in any other list: with an RD spent per turn (Net 0 when remembering the battalion grants us 1 per turn; consider it an additional cost), you gain an Arkhan that moves 12", but has a defensive profile of 23 wounds with a 3+ save. Target Arkhan? on a 2+, the wound goes to the Archai. On a 5+ the wound allocation is negated entirely. Target the Archai? They also have a 5+ negation against mortals. Essentially, the list operates in blocks of synergy. Assault Block 1: Arkhan the Black + Morghast Archai x 2 Assault Block 2: Liege-Kavalos + Kavalos Deathriders x 5 Objective Block 2: Mortek Guard x 20 + Immortis Guard x 3 Objective Block 1: Mortisan Boneshaper+ Mortek Guard x 10 + Immortis Guard x 3 The assault blocks rocket up the battlefield and attempt to cause as much damage as possible/tie the enemy down for a turn; yes, we're throwing Arkhan into the fray here. The objective blocks move up behind them and secure objectives. After one round of combat, the leaders retreat while they leave any surviving Archai or Deathriders behind to continue slowing your opponent. Each of your leaders fall back to the objective blocks behind them, who have all enjoyed 2 turns of running up the field. A healthy Immortis Guard awaits each of them, protecting them from additional wounds and allowing at least 1 turn to capitalize on healing to ensure Arkhan and the Kavalos can continue into the late game. At this point, the heroes and Immortis Guard stay where they are, while the Mortek Guard either dig in their heels for a grand last stand, or separate to protect backfield objectives/steal objectives deep in enemy territory... it's really up to what's necessary. The entire point of this list is to essentially "halve" the distance of the board so to speak. They can either attempt to alpha strike turn 1 and bring the fight to you, at which point your Guard are online on turn 1/2 which is what you want anyway; or they can move cautiously in fear of your threat range, bringing their movement down to the level of your own Mortek Guard. One note: the Boneshaper needs to use the Lode of Saturation on the accompanying 10 guard every turn. 10 Guard looks squishy compared to the other blocks here, but when you realize they're +3 save/++5 deathless, and regenning 6 bodies a turn if Arkhan and the Boneshaper both have their say in the matter? The idea here is to force the opponent to over commit. This army sports 31 wounds worth of +2/++6 armor saves, and 30 more that are +3 reroll fails/++6! Now, the sad news here: I can't make any purchases anytime soon. I'm missing Arkhan, the Liege-Kavalos, AND the Deathriders to make this list a reality. But I'd love feedback, and may take a crack at proxying the list whenever it's safe to be playing Sigmar again and report back with my findings.

Liege-Kavalos - 200 [General, Godbone Armor, Mighty Archaeossian] Mortisan Boneshaper - 130 Kavalos Deathriders x 5 - 180 Mortek Guard x 20 - 260 Necropolis Stalkers x 3 - 200 Bone-Tithe Shrieker - 30 --- Gives ya a little bit of everything. A big block of tough infantry to hold an objective. A lightning fast assault group with considerable beef (15 wounds at +3 and 9 ignoring first received at +2 is a lot for most 1k lists to eat through), and arguably the killiest thing in Sigmar for 200 points: Petrifex Elite, Precision Stance Stalkers. If your group power games, I think dropping the Boneshaper for a unit of 10 Mortek Guard to help hold other objectives and bring redundancy is the correct choice. But in terms of an introduction to the army, a Boneshaper is a great way to test their spells, the impact of regeneration on hero phase, and the power of Bone-Tithe Shrieker. He also brings an additional Relentless Discipline point guaranteed to the table, which is a critical resource you will probably lose most of on turn 3 if you use the Kavalos alongside the Deathriders for an assault force (Which you should). Plus Relocation Orb sucks with only 1 hero in 1k point games. EDIT There is probably no reason you cannot split the Guard into 2 groups of 10. It lets you stay flexible and allows you to screen the Stalkers without sacrificing objective play. You should try both though and get a feel for what works best for you.

I will laugh if this unit with its single ranged model is more viable than a unit of 5 Stalkers. It isn't a high bar to clear - more like the bar fell onto the ground and this unit just needs to gingerly step over it - but still.

30 bucks for: An Underworlds band. A Hag Queen without having to buy a Cauldron box. An Archer snake for Warcry without having to buy a box of 5 that would otherwise be much better served as Halberd Snakes. 2 to 3 [Depending on your willingness to convert] unique sculpts for our horde infantry that, while great, suffer from looking very samey. I'm glad Daughters aren't the hottest thing on the block right now because the incentives to pick this up are massive. I'll be buying 2 for sure.

After GHB2019 points changes you don't really need much else tbh. Some ideas: Option 1 [Most expensive]: Grab 20 more Elves to run a blob of 30 Slaughter elves and a 2nd small group of 10 Slaughter Elves, and 2 packs of Harpies to field a Slaughter Troupe. You will likely never field Morathi in this list due to points limits. Option 2 [Cheaper]: Ignore battalions and grab 2 packs of Blood Sisters so you can run the discounted max squad of 20. Bloodwrack will need to be general. Option 3 [Cheapest]: Buy 1 pack of Khinerai and use them as a deep strike source to patch up your immobility. Least competitive but most flexible option, and probably the wisest of the 3 as it can let you transition into option 1.

Katakros - 500 [General] Mortisan Soulmason - 140 [Godbone Armor] Mortek Guard x 40 - 440 [Spears] Mortek Guard x 20 - 260 [Swords] Mortek Guard x 10 - 130 [Swords] Crawler - 200 Crawler - 200 Mortek Shield-Corps - 120 1990/2000 --- Other than this list being incredibly boring and as vanilla/cheesey as possible, surely this must be something people have tried and found issue with? Truth is I like the way hoards of skeletons look, and not taking Katakros' model seems like a shame aesthetic wise... idk. I wouldn't bring this against casual opponents for sure but it just looks so fun to play.

Could drop the Comet, Incantor, Bloodwrack Shrine, and 5 Sisters to free up 500 points for buying Morathi, while still leaving the foot slogging Medusa to be your general holding a Shadow Stone. Meteor is great, sure, but when the difference between a shrine and Morathi comes down to these cuts it feels like an obvious improvement. It's painful to take 15 Sisters when the discount for 20 is so good, I know, but again... Morathi. Even if you don't like the idea of dropping the gimmick (Note: Gimmick =/= Bad thing, it is just an acknowledgement of the rare unique twist to a DoK list), I will likely steal this list save for swapping the 10 warriors for 5 Heartrenders due to my model availability, and running the 30 SoS as Knife+Blade elves as that is all I have access to atm. It looks really, really solid.

Correct. But Stalkers with 1" range make me hesitant to run packs of 6. So the extra 3 from the Box I was possibly going to pick up were going to become Immortis Guard no matter what, simply for unit variety's sake. Even so, with Stalkers in the middle, 4 Morghast on theright, and 20 Guard + Boneshaper + Kavalos down the left, the Immortis Guard and 10 Mortek on the right screening Vok and preventing deepstrikes behind him just turned him into a massive block of "Not even worth shooting." Since Vok has to be within 8" to return a Morghast, chances are he will be in danger, hence the Guard feeling necessary. Right now I'm mostly trying to experiment with non min maxed list... my army interests since starting were Daughters of Khaine --> Nighthaunt --> Slaanesh --> Idoneth --> Ossiarch. Needless to say some opponents suspect nefarious interests lol.