Nevar

They could literally just make Glaivewriaths battle line and i would consider them more. A battle-line 'tax' that can fall back and charge mixed with Bladegeists could be an awesome army.

Chainrasps are still battleline.

Hey folks, questions all around for the LoN players in here. I have been a Nighthaunt player since AoS1.0, and I have been stoked about the new Nighthaunt and all that. I specifically love the Nighthaunt models. However... it seems to me Nighthaunt as a faction are more in the 'Gambler's Army' realm than I really like. They have a lot of good abilities and units and synergies and the like... but their battle traits like Wave of Terror, is one of those things you cannot plan on. It is icing on my cake when it works, but by no means something I can expect at any time. My question is, how successful can I be using basically only Nighthaunt models in a LoN army? Which Legion is best for that? I would want to keep everything ghostly, but a single necromancer with Ethereal Amulet, or a Vampire or the like would be fine since I can get them Ethereal via artifact and make them 'Ghost Necromancers' and such. An Ethereal VLoD would be fun also. I just find the 'strategy' of grave marker placement, and keeping the general alive and near one to respawn units and managing the CPs much more engaging. In Nighthaunt I basically bank CPs for the first turn or so, then use them for charge rerolls and the occasional +attack buffs on the Knight of Shrouds. It seems from an outside perspective... that I could essentially maintain the full Nighthaunt unit synergies with the units added to LoN with Soul Wars, while also bringing in a unit of Bladegeists, or a special character from time to time, etc. The Nightmare Lantern for instance gives +1 to wound for all Nighthaunt units, and if I am using all Nighthaunt units in my LoN I lose none of the synergy from that buff. Likewise I can still use the spell to spirit lure more units back, PLUS all the grave site healing. It just seems like I could do a much better steady, strategic, attrition, type play style in LoN as opposed to NH, even when still using all bedsheets. What do you all think?

So... maybe this has been pointed out somewhere else. I recently got a Black Coach model online for super cheap (yay me!) and I was looking through the instructions. The warscroll in the build instructions states it is a HERO. Not only is it a HERO but it has a rule called "Obvious Target" which makes it count as a MONSTER for the purposes of Look Out Sir! Everything else is the same. I know people were talking about how it needed to be a HERO earlier in the thread and I found it interesting.

Well that is my point. You said; "but on the other, it does fill our BL needs in one go" Implying it deals with the 'BL tax' as a upside of the battalion. Something like any of the Chainrasp battalions do the same, with less points tied into them, and much more desirable hero choices. Guardian of Souls, Spirit Torments, etc. I am not arguing Chainrasps are better than Spirit Hosts, they are extremely different, but if you are wanting a competitive battalion with artifacts and the like, while also filling in the BL requirements, any of the Chainrasp options are superior. If you don't like Chainrasps like me, then these battalions are not very attractive. Which is why I am using an Execution Horde for Path to Glory. I want to use better BL and make the best use of RotSH early in the campaign. Guardian of Souls can get max 9 wounds back from his spell, or x3 Spirit Hosts if you are lucky, likely only getting x2. RotSH will get you 1-3 Hosts back, average 2.

The main question becomes... would you want to pay the points for the Executioner and the Battalion? Also... are you wanting to pay those prices for the Spirit Hosts when there are Chainrasps and Grims out there. I will be using it in an upcoming Path to Glory, mainly because I wanted to make a 'fun list' and Spirit Hosts coupled with RotSH will make the starting warband more survivable early in the campaign. I think the problem with the Executioner and his battalion is not that they are bad, just that they have far better things competing with them.

Applying 30 Grimghasts to anything is always a good way to solve it.

Pretty sure it is one instance per player. Since you pay points for them it would be pretty bad if your opponent bringing something canceled out your own list points.

You can also deep-strike the Spirit Torment in the region you need him in.

Switch to Bladegeists... see the light... abandon your Dreadscythe ways. Spirit Tormet gives you full re-rolls on a 3+ to hit unit. Repent.

Looks like conversion fodder for another Guardian of Souls or Knight of Shrouds, don't know why I would ever use this as an alternate Bladegeist... the boxes come with full units...

I use 20 at 1,000 points. Generally people think they are not worth their points. I disagree but I am one of the odd ball opinions.

Would help with hitting, but I think the list already is really low on bodies, and I wound need to drop a Steam Tank to squeeze him in. A Steam Tank is a Warmachine, and has 12 wounds and good armor. They can fight in melee for a round or two but the Azyros would probably not be able to screen as well. I am not generally a fan of 'throw away' units, and the poor Azyros would be dead almost immediately.

The struggle is fitting more of them in the lists. I have 30 in Shroudguard... but unless I want to spam them it's hard to bring more.

Has anyone else lost the ability to use anything except Chainrasps as Battleline in your Nighthaunt armies in the Azyr app?

Wow... my 20 Hexwraiths need this guy. Being able to back out of combat and still charge would let me fish for Wave of Terror -and- use Spectral Hunters more often.

Unlike the Knight-Incantor, the Luminark cannot use a void scroll to cancel clutch spells. Void scroll can win you the game against Nagash for instance. Auto-unbind his spell portal, and you don't have to worry about getting wiped out by spells on Turn 1. That gives you a turn of artillery fire to knock the big bad down. Not to mention dozens of clutch Endless Spells and even random Warscroll spells. I would pay the price of a Knight-Incantor just for the one use scroll, everything else she does is gravy. I think the damage output of the Luminark is too situational in comparison to say a Celestar Ballista. I prefer predictable and reliable to 'hopefully'. White Mage's spell is only good on large units, and the one shot of the Luminark can get shrugged off by a 4+ Ethereal save from a Nighthaunt. Even some Stormcasts will have an armor save against it. Too many dice gates to get through. Have to hit, have to wound, have to hope they don't make their save. With the spell you also hope your enemy brings a massive blob. Useless against Beast Claw and Stormcasts for instance. The huge amount of points less the Luminark costs -is- a big deal, but I can get two Celestars for the price of one Luminark. Also I really don't like either the Hurricanum or the Luminark model. I will have to convert a command tank or something to count as my Hurricanum. Maybe a hellstorm rocket battery fixed to the tank with an observation platform for a wizard or something.

Mind blown. I just read that wrong and assumed it was the downside of the spell that the enemy got to choose one of your units and it was a 50/50 if it hit your guys or his guys. You are right though, you are doing d6 Mortal Wounds to someone on his side of the table... this just makes it better. Looking at the Luminark I just can't justify the defense aura when I am trying to maximize long range death. Plus, the Luminark's gun is a singe 6 damage shot hitting on 3+. A Lord-Ordinator can't even buff it to a 2+ because it does not have the Warmachine key word. The Hurricanum doesn't even have to roll to hit, and deal Mortal Wounds. Minimum damage from a Hurricanum is 3 Mortal Wounds, half as much as the Luminark, but requiring no hit or wound, and bypassing the vast majority of defenses. Obviously the Luminark's 30" range is nice, but there is a concept I learned to master playing the Tau Empire in 40k when it comes to GW shooting armies. In fluff the Tau call it Mont'Ka, but in general games like this people refer to it as target priority and destruction, and you can maximize your ability to completely remove an enemy unit through unifying your weapon ranges so you can coordinate a kill zone/range. When you have a lot of disparate ranges, you have to position your forces much more scattered to make sure they can all bring their weapons to bear, or you can focus on one range and plan your strikes for that specific kill zone. Hurricanum is most lethal around 18". This is the best lethal range for the Celestar Ballista as well. Freeguild Handguns are annoyingly 16" but since you will want them strung out as a screen in front, this actually gets them in range in the same turn that the rest of your lethal weaponry comes into most effective range. Having the Steam Cannons on the tanks, and the long range profile of the Celestars and Longriflemen allows the army to put ranges pressure on the enemy from turn one. Likewise with spells, the burning gaze on the Luminark is good... but it's max damage is 3d3 Mortal Wounds against large hordes. That is the normal shooting damage of the Hurricanum. Comet of Cassendora is also an 18" spell, causing decision to be made when an enemy is considering crossing that 'line in the sand' that brings them into the kill range of everything. If they send only one unit... it will 100% get hit by the comet. If they send more it randomizes the comet, but gives the rest of your army more target choices. I dunno, to me it seems like the Hurricanum is just completely superior for a shooting heavy army. +1 to hit on artillery and rifles/blades is just so good. If you are using the 6++ from the Luminark your arty is already having a bad day.

Oh you mean ally into the Free City? I am pretty sure the Free Cities do not have an 'allies' list like other factions. The problem is, things like Free Guild, or Wanderers, or Stormcast Eternals, have a list of which 'Order' units can get included into their armies using the 'allies' points. Free Cities are not a faction in the same way those armies are, they are a set of bonus rules you can use if you use the factions listed as living in that Free City. Unless I am mistaken, GreyWater does not have an 'allies' list, because the Free Cities are already in essence large allied collection of models. Also, I double checked, GreyWater does allow the Magic School units... so the Hurricanum can be in GreyWater giving all of the artillery and tanks in this list the ability to fire in the Hero Phase on a d6 roll of 6. So you have odds to fire at least one of the ballistas or Steam Tanks in the Hero Phase as well. Unfortunately the Hurricanum does not have the Warmachine keyword and can't roll for the Free City bonus.

Looking at this list, I could not use this in a GreyWater freecity because the Hurricanum is a Arcana unit. However, this list is still legal as a mixed Order army. When you play your Grand Alliance, you can freely use any and all 'Order' or 'Death' or whatever units.

So... the Hurricanum gives a +1 to hit to all ORDER units within 10" to start. That is huge, and severely increases the lethality of the Stormcast Ballistas. This has made me completely rework my potential list, what do you guys think? Celestial Hurricanum with Mage (The mage is free, why -not- take him?) Knight-Incantor Lord-Ordinator Freeguild General x10 Freeguild Handgunners x10 Freeguild Handgunners x10 Freeguild Handgunners Celestar Ballista Celestar Ballista Celestar Ballista Celestar Ballista Steam Tank Steam Tank Soulsnare Shackles So correct me if I am wrong... but the Hurricanum deals anywhere between 3 - 18 Mortal Wounds per shooting phase. It says to roll a dice for each time you attack, and the damage chart says 3 attacks to start. Each dice is between 1, d3, or d6 Mortal Wounds at 18". That is amazing 'artillery' though it does not benefit from Grey Water Fastness, it does also give a +1 to hit aura. So... With the Lord-Ordinator the Ballistas are hitting on 2+ at range, and a 4+ with the rapid shot... but with the Hurricanum the Ballistas hit on 3+ at rapid fire range... that is around 3 hits per ballista... 12 hits... 12d6 Celestar Ballista hits per shooting phase on average. That kind of fire with Rend -2 can remove units... if I could fine another +1 to hit they could be hitting on 2's. That seems way better than the Cannons at that point. Additionally... if the Freeguild Handgunners don't move, and get targeted by their general for HOLD THE LINE! they hit on 2+ and wound on 2+ in units of 10. That damage output is before any additional shots from the Greywater benefit, and doesn't include any spell damage from the two wizards. Comet of Casandora is funny, but could backfire badly, so I imagine that wizard would throw Shackles or Arcane Bolt. Knight-Incantor will use her storm for sure. Lastly... a question about the Freeguild General... it says occasionally he can carry the war banner... if he is carrying the war banner, does he have no weapons? Or does he pick a weapon set -and- carry the banner? Theoretically if he is on foot with a banner he would have no attacks at all?

No, that is not the same argument. Adding 10 attacks increases potential hits, and if everything goes according to statistical chances you will net more hits. However, with 40 dice in play there are more variable chances per die. Mathhammer gives you the statistical numbers on chance. When you add 10 more dice, you are still adding -more- chance. By improving the rolls instead of adding dice, you are reducing the effect of chance on your overall rolling. Especially with re-rolls. Adding more dice if everything rolls by statistics might be better... but you are also increasing the odds of rolling less than statistical and rolling more than statistical. So you have more chance to roll worse or better than the other guy who improved his dice roll instead. The increased potential comes with greater variance in what you might get, and if your guys with only 3 attacks already do more than enough damage as they are... then increasing potential damage at the cost of added chance to what happens can be a less optimal option. But that speaks to the general. Some people see increased potential as all that matters and prefer the luck of more dice. Other people like to mitigate the effects of chance as much as possible. Both KoS's are viable depending on which type of general you are.

It would be nice if it was a "completely within" aura that costs a cmd point. A constant free aura would be an auto-include. That said, I will point out that the benefits of +1 to hit vs. +1 attack is very much more preference than objective better/worse. Likewise their value is also heavily influenced by the target unit's native hit roll and number of attacks. The Mourngul for instance benefits more from +1 to hit than +1 attack because it already has a bunch of attacks and the +1 attack literally nets you one more dice to roll. +1 Attack on Myrmourns is clearly better than +1 to hit because you are adding 12 more dice to the pool. The value of each heavily swings depending on target. That said, in many situations it is the general and their play style that can heavily influence the effectiveness of either. For instance, I use the KoS on foot with my Bladegeists because they natively have 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 3+. With the +1 to hit, and the Spirit Torment nearby... 10 guys is as close to 30 ensured hit as one can get. That is basically 25 rend -1 wounds. I know that is rough Brainhammer, but I can count on 20 wounds from my Bladegeists. Some will get saved obviously, but ten Bladegeists can very easily cut down the majority of a Liberator squad for instance if they are hitting on 2+ re-rolling wounding on a 2+ thanks to Guardian of Souls. While giving them more attacks increases their -potential- damage... when they are doing good damage already being able to count on that damage and not be hoping for good rolls can make all the difference. While Mathhammer gives you a good idea of what to expect, it only accounts for things that can be run 'by the numbers' like amount of dice and the like. It cannot account for more abstractly valuable aspects like reliability created by minimizing variance. +1 to hit does not increase damage potential, but it does reduce variation in expected damage results. When it comes to my Shroudguard Revenants who I am specifically relying on doing their jobs... knowing what I can expect from them is more important than -potentially- having them do a bit more damage. Likewise, a Mourngul 8 attacks. Adding one attack to get one more chance for the Mortal Wounds is less valuable in my mind than ensuring that his other 8 attacks hit and account for themselves. Most targets will be suffering heavily from his basic damage, the MW's are really only a must have against something with high armor.

I am 90% sure it is legal. To show another example that highlights the interaction with Endless Spells, take a look at the Nighthaunt Endless Spells. https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_NightHaunt_Shyish_Reaper.pdf The rules state; "Only Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead and Nighthaunt Wizards can attempt to cast Summon Shyish Reaper. It has a casting value of 7. If successfully cast, set up a Shyish Reaper model wholly within 6" of the caster." Nagash is not a member of the Nighthaunt battletome, nor does he share any of the Nighthaunt keywords, nor is he in the Allegiance of those Endless Spells. Clearly it makes sense that he should be able to cast them, and so the warscrolls for all of the Nighthaunt Endless Spells specifically write him in to who can cast them. This inclusion is not specified in the battletome, it is expressed directly on the warscrolls for the Endless Spells. Also, logically speaking, if you had a clause in the battletome that restricted the use of the Endless Spells, the warscrolls would not need to specify which type of wizards can cast them as they do, it would be as easy as 'wizards' instead of using Keywords. GW has been known to not do the most logical things in the past, and I say I am only 90% sure because there is of course a small chance there is some clause somewhere that says only allegiance pure lists can use them, but I am very confident that is not the case. I only cite the undead examples because I am very familiar with those and have their battletomes, where I do not have the Stormcast battletome.

Apologies for the double post, but I pondered a 1k list to collect and I wanted to hear what people here thought of it. Waywatcher - General Nomad Prince Knight-Incantor x20 Sisters of the Watch x10 Sisters of the Watch Everblaze Comet Soulsnare Shackles Just a caviot or two. I include the Knight-Incantor because I already have a model for one, and she is a character in the background for the order city these aelves patrol for. I looked at the Spell Weaver and thought she was good also, but a Knight-Incantor can actually fight in melee, has soul vials, and can bring the Everblaze Comet. Speaking of the Everblaze Comet, I have seen it used to amazingly good effect in 1k games, plus I figure it will potentially be even better with the Wanderers as I can drop it in between my archers and the enemy, then play ring around the rosey with a pulsing death comet as a burning no-go zone for any assaulty army wanting to cover the distance. Soulsnare Shackles is really only included to fill points, but I can see stringing them out to mine objectives and the like and further slow down my opponents. I figure I would have the Nomad Prince, and Knight-Incantor, and the Waywatcher form a castle with either the x20 or x10 lady unit of SotW depending on how cagey my opponent is being. If they are spreading out to prevent my flanking moves I can take the smaller x10 unit on hit and run missions since they will be easier to position... if my enemy is being heedless I can drop the x20 unit on a flank or behind them to make it not entirely a sure thing which way the enemy units should be going. The down side is the Knight-Incantor can't flee with wanderer magics, but I imagine after running through comet fire, soul shackles, and blazing arrows, the Knight-Incantor can likely do some work in the combat phase, even if it is just a suicide bomb with her soul vials on an enemy big guy. Likewise my Nomad Prince seems like a duelist to an extent, especially if he is taking on injured opponents. Is this list madness?