Asamu

Well the reveal was "Chaos will stand Undivided once again", so... I'd say it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be, whether or not it'll be worth it is a different matter.

Apparently rend -2 on slayer of kings was confirmed? In a StD army, assuming they keep their current allegiance abilities from the GhB, he gets re-roll 1s to hit, wound, and save and re-roll run/charge rolls just for being part of the army, and passes those bonuses along to units with the relevant marks. I don't think they'll change that part of the allegiance abilities much (though hopefully they increase the range or make it also work off of unit champions like OBR), and they'll probably keep the eye of the gods table and get another ability or two for the basic allegiance + subfactions. Nurgle/Khorne get something out of him partly because of the current command ability, which I'd sort of expect to change, since it's so difficult to make use of as is. I think it's pretty much certain that we'll see some warscroll changes, even if they aren't all that significant. At the very least, the StD heroes will have their command abilities adjusted. The manticore lord only being able to use the command ability on basic warriors of chaos sucks, and the foot lord command ability and mark benefits are redundant with the allegiance ability, which will obviously be changed. The new models for chaos warriors make me think they'll see -1 rend baseline, but there's obviously no guarantee. Did they confirm that? There wasn't anything about endless spells in the reveal, though I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did get some.

Currently, Varanguard are probably best with the lances, though there's an argument for Daemon blades if you have Archaon, access to re-rolls to hit, and/or additional bonuses to hit, or ensorcelled weapons if you think you might not be able to get the charge. With just Archaon, Daemon blades are slightly better than ensorcelled weapons in terms of output vs a target with a 4+ or better save, but are otherwise worse, and if Archaon dies, or you don't bring him, they're strictly worse; Lances off the charge are the worst (if you have Archaon), but perform the best on the charge, having the same output as ensorcelled weapons, but with better rend, and with the ability to attack twice once per game, you can potentially double up on that charge damage. If you have re-rolls to hit or an additional bonus and Archaon, Daemonblades probably end up the best as long as you aren't suffering any penalties to hit. The warscroll is probably changing a bit in the new tome though, so it's hard to say for certain. If Daemon blades go up to 6 attacks at 3+/4+/-1/1 with mortal wounds on natural 6s to hit, and no downside (as I sort of suspect will happen unless there are much larger warscroll changes), they might end up the best for all situations. In a Khorne army, I'd probably always go lances because of the access to re-rolls/bonuses to wound and charge, though there's an argument for daemon blades with Killing frenzy; same with Nurgle. In Slaanesh, maybe esorcelled weapons, as there's very limited access to hit bonuses. In Tzeentch, maybe Ensorcelled weapons, since fate points would be used for Archaon. In Slaves to Darkness/generic chaos with a warshrine, probably lances, though daemon blades have potential with the re-rolls from the warshrine and the hit buff from Archaon.

The damage per point is still very good. Generally, it out-performs other artillery unless the target has a 2+ save, assuming it's still at full wounds. WLC are slightly better vs targets with a 3+ save or better, but are otherwise a bit worse. It does significantly more damage, on average, than something like Kurnoth Hunter greatbows, and at longer range. 2 Stormcast ballistas do ~3.1 damage before saves - which is pretty standard for 200 points of long ranged artillery; the crawler doing more than double that, making it only worse vs targets with a 2+ save, is pretty big. 20 Freeguild crossbows do ~13.6 wounds pre-save, so have ~2/3 more output per point than the Crawler, but that's at shorter range with a restriction of not moving, and they also degrade in output and take damage faster, and the faction has less access to healing. If the crossbows move, their output per point is lower than a crawler. Sure, but range matters. Crawlers have 36" range, while handgunners have a 16" range, and handgunners degrade and take damage faster, on account of being individual models, making every wound count. If one of those handgunners is a unit of 30, 1 crawler can do an average of 10 damage to it in the first round with the cauldron. 22.22 damage means 2 rounds of putting out ~18 wounds on handgunners (due to them having a 6+ save) before the handgunners can even get in range of them - after 2 shooting phases, the handgunners are pretty much a non-threat. ~36 of those 50 handgunners would already be dead, on average, before they start shooting if the OBR player holds back a couple of turns for the purpose. With Nagash's command ability (re-roll 1s to hit/wound/save), Arch-Kavalos Zandtos's command ability (re-roll 1s to wound), or the spell from a Soulmason (re-roll 1s to hit), you can further improve the damage output of the crawlers reliably. The 5 wound general is also notably vulnerable to the crawlers, as if it fails 1 save, it dies, and with that save being a 4+, odds are good he dies on the first or second wound from a crawler. Yeah, if the cauldron gets locked in melee, it's pretty bad, but it's not "inevitable" that a crawler will get locked down. Not every army will even have flying units, and OBR have a decent option for screening with Mortek guard. Crossbows would compare better than handgunners, at ~55.6 damage before saves for the 50 with the general, and they have better range, so could potentially start shooting after only 1 turn against the crawlers. That said, I'm not saying the crawler is OP, just that it's good, and there's a reason people are looking at taking multiple of them in an army. It's unlikely more than 1 even makes it into the most competitive lists, but that doesn't make them not a competitive option. 2 of them + arch-kavalos Zandtos seems pretty solid for 620 points, and leaves plenty of room for a solid core to the rest of the list. My bad on that. It was a bit unclear with how it's written, I hadn't looked at it too closely.

Crawlers have 3 shots 2+/3+/-/5 That's 8.3333 damage per round on average before saves. It's very good output for the price and range, and even if they do take damage, you can heal them for 3 per turn with Arkhan/nagash/Katakros or boneshapers. Compare that with a plagueclaw at 3+/3+/-2/d6 or 2+/3+/-2/2d6 vs units per round before saves, for 4/5 the price. A WLC only averages 3.5 mortal wounds per round, making it worse vs anything with a 4+ save or worse. Rocket battery? 2 average damage per round at .65* the price at rend -2 -> nowhere near as good unless the target has a 2+ save (or re-rolls). The flat 5 damage also means that a lot of hero models are extremely vulnerable to them. If 1 wound goes through, a 5 wound hero is dead, and with a 2+ hit baseline, they shoot at a 3+ even if the hero is benefiting from "look out sir". While on full wounds, crawlers are quite probably the best artillery in the game, and with 12 wounds and a 4+ save, they're also pretty tough for an artillery piece, and their range means they often aren't even an option for your opponent to target until turn 2 or 3, because they can deploy on the back table edge. Vs a unit with 3 or 4 very expensive models with a good save, like Varanguard or Stormcast cavalry, their cauldron ability is extremely threatening, as with 3 dice, there's a very high chance of killing one of the models outright and doing more damage than a normal shot. Though both of the 1 time use special shots are highly situational.

You can use all of them. The battalion only gives a shrug on the 2+ redirect from heroes though; it becomes 2-4 to redirect and 5-6 shrug entirely. Deathless minion and ebony wrought armour take place after wounds are allocated after normal save rolls, so it looks like you could take them after the Soulbound Protectors roll. Needs an FAQ on the ordering, since they all happen at wound allocation, and the RAW is you get to pick the order when it is your turn and they happen at the same time, so you could armor -> deathless initial allocation -> soulbound protectors -> deathless on the new allocation -> ebony wrought armour*(if it was a mortal wound). The argument can be made that the deathless save can only be made once, because the allocation from soulbound protectors is "instead of", so is technically still only 1 allocation for the purpose of deathless saves, which is probably the better way to play it..

That's why you pair him with some immortis guard and run him in the Petrifex Elite. It gets him a 3+ save and essentially a 2+ shrug for as long as the Immortis guard are alive, and he can heal himself in the hero phase. He's way more resilient in OBR than in normal LoN. With 3 Immortis guard, they'd need to do 23 wounds in a single round to kill him, and he'd effectively heal for up to 6 wounds per round (if you've been shrugging damage to the immortis guard and taking some on him). If you also bring Katakros or a boneshaper you get even more healing. That's a 560-690 point investment for the 2-3 units, and it's not like Immortis guard are pushovers in melee; they don't hit particularly hard, but with a 2+ save and potentially re-rolls, they generally won't go down in 1 round, even in a small unit, and they can protect your other heroes as well. For the death riders, it needs an FAQ, RAW you can arguably do that, because there's nothing clarifying that you can only use it once.

I'd consider swapping the stalkers to Immortis Guard. They don't hit as hard, but they have a 2+ save and eat wounds for your heroes on a 2+, so your opponent can't just pick off your heroes to start dismantling the list; it's especially good with the relatively fragile hero core you're bringing. I think any hyper-competitive list should run Arkhan unless it's bringing Nagash though. He gets all the spells in the lore, gets the subfaction benefits, can heal 4 units every round (including himself, because he gets the keyword as part of the army), and is good in combat for a pretty cheap point cost of 360, and he's basically only 2nd to Nagash in terms of magic. If it's true that the deathriders can use their ability multiple times on the same charge, that'll probably end up being the most competitive list. 20-30 mortal wounds because 1 model out of 10-15 is within range of a unit after the charge and you burned 6 command points is brutal.

I didn't suggest changing the trait; just the artefact, because the one you had listed is for battleshock immunity, which you didn't need with a warpseer and furnace. Master of magic is great in the list to get spells off a bit more reliably. More more warp power is a bit unreliable, but it's a massive buff, and you can at least get the +1 from being near a gnawhole.

Not much else you can do with that model selection list wise. It's not ideal, but you should still be able to win games with smart play. Screen for with the clanrats; just get the unit as wide as possible to cover the most area. and put your shooting behind it. Keep the monks protected as well if you can, and try to get a charge off when they're buffed by the furnace. Take more-more-more warp power on the Warlock engineer. For the artefact, I'd go with a Suspicious stone on the warpseer for the 4+/5++/5++, Vigordust injector on the engineer for +1 to hit with the stormfiends, or the Liber Bubonicus on the furnace to double prayer the monks so they can do more damage on the charge. The Plague furnace and Warpseer command ability already give battleshock immunity. Suspicious stone is going to be the most reliably good choice. Bring Warpgale instead of plague on the Grey Seer; cutting enemy charge rolls in half is extremely powerful, and you can cast it turn 1 with the balewind from outside of dispel range. Now you can do it twice on different units, or do both on one unit to reduce their charge roll by 3/4 (Halved twice - this needs an FAQ; currently, I see no reason why it wouldn't be allowed) to make a 3" charge a 12" charge and do d3+ d6 mortal wounds. If the enemy list only has 2 main threats, this lets you dedicate everything else on one of them. Aside from that, it's going to be about target priority and objectives you don't have a ton of bodies, so controlling movement with your spells (Warpgale, Dreaded Warpgale, the Warp Lightning Vortex, and Vermintide) and killing off the main damage threats with shooting are going to be key. You can put out a lot of mortal wounds to pick off key heroes with the warp lightning cannons. What are the stormfiends equipped with? Ratling Cannons, Shock Gauntlets, and Windlaunchers are probably best (windlaunchers because the range lets you do some damage turn 1; warpfire projectors are better if you can get at least ~10 models in range, so if you're expecting to play against DoK, you'd probably want them instead). The 3 Stormvermins buffed with a spark (+1 damage w/ shooting), More-more-more warp power (re-roll hits and wounds), and a vigordust injector (+1 to hit/charge) put out ~22 damage with their shooting on average with that set up, and you can do it twice if they don't take damage beforehand. If you take windlaunchers, you probably want that one to be the first to die.

I'd drop the cannons or one of the 3x stormfiends, an engineer, and lifeswarm for 3x20 clanrats to screen and a grey seer for warpgale so you can cut movement/charge distance in half on a priority target. As long as you don't receive charges from the bloodcrushers, they aren't a huge threat. Once the clanrat screen goes down, you can charge in with the stormfiends to lock things down. The big unit can delete 1-2 units per turn with shooting as long as you get some buffs off. If you drop the cannons and lifeswarm for 3x20 clanrats, you're left with 120 points which can be used for the grey seer. As is, you can likely delete any single unit with the cannons and windlaunchers in each shooting phase, assuming you buff the 6x stormfiends with everything you can; ratling cannons can delete another each shooting phase once they get close enough.

Seems the Seraphon and Fyreslayers Battletomes are both no longer being distributed by GW. This should be a pretty good indication of an update coming for both soon-ish. http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/new-rumor.22495/page-21

Eh, they're pretty good for 300-400pt monsters really. They don't degrade much, they're super fast with 14" flying move, and they can cast spells, regenerate, and have a decent shooting attack. Skarbrand is fairly slow, can't regenerate wounds, and only has a 4+ save; he's pretty easy to kill with shooting or by running something faster into him and striking first. The other BTs are actually weaker than a Terrorgheist/ZD in combat, are slower, degrade harder, and don't regenerate. It's pretty fair imo.

They still have the blades in addition to staves; they just don't get re-rolls to hit without a corruptor nearby using the command ability, where 2 blade monks always get re-rolls to hit. The bonuses giving extra attacks apply to both weapons, so the 2+1 attacks becomes 4+3. In a unit of 40, they're also getting +1 to hit and wound, so 3+/3+ for the blade, and 3+/4+ for the staff; the other prayer gives re-rolls to wound, and the Verminlord corruptor command ability gives re-rolls to hit. Additionally, 6s to wound cause 2 damage instead of 1, so they do attacks*chance to hit*(chance to wound + chance that wound roll is a nat 6): 4*8/9*10/9+3*8/9*4/4 = ~6.617 This is probably the highest damage per point of any unit in the game, and the buffs aren't hard to get off. The warpstone tokens rule allows Grey Seers to roll 3d6 to cast a spell instead of 2d6. If they roll a 13, the spell is cast automatically and can't be dispelled, but the grey seer dies. Otherwise, you remove 1 of the dice (always the lowest) and use the remaining 2 for the casting roll.

So... Plague monks with woe staves with both Furnace prayers (+1 attack and re-roll wounds) and the Verminlord corruptor command ability (Re-roll hits) make 7 attacks and average ~6.6 damage apiece on the charge. Hard to beat 40 plague monks doing an average 264 wounds in one combat phase, and making a second attack for each model that dies if death frenzy went off (with the warpstone token rule and +1 from a gnawhole, it should go off ~80% of the time, and on a 10+ over 50% of the time). 20 buffed plague monks is still enough to kill basically anything they touch, and it's not hard to get a lot of models in with 25mm bases. With gnawholes, you can teleport alpha strike on the first turn, and with cogs, it's a 6+ to charge instead of an 8+. You might not get the re-rolls to hit from the verminlord, but they probably aren't needed anyway. Allegiance: SkaventideMortal Realm: Ulgu or HyshGrey Seer (120)- General- Trait: Master of Magic- Lore of Ruin: Death FrenzyPlague Priest on Plague Furnace (180)- Artefact: Liber Bubonicus Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (180)Verminlord Corruptor (260)- Artefact: Sword of Judgement or Aetherquartz Brooch40 x Plague Monks (240) - Woe-stave40 x Plague Monks (240) - Woe-stave40 x Plague Monks (240) - Woe-stave40 x Plague Monks (240) - Woe-stave10 x Plague Monks (70) - Woe-staveCongregation of Filth (160)Chronomantic Cogs (60)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 223 This list has 4 drops; all of the plague monks and the 2nd furnace are part of the battalion; though it may be worth cutting the battalion to bump the small unit of plague monks up to 40.

Blowpipes usually; it makes them a threat earlier, and they don't need to enter charge range to shoot vs slower units. I like clubs so they can fight if needed to get that bit of extra damage out, but most people go with shield + blowpipe.

A Fangs of Sotek list, which is sunclaw + a slann and an oldblood carno + whatever, placed highly at London GT - 3rd place or so; the formation is pretty excellent, with the carnosaur bloodroar improvement and extra movement on the first turn. The list was 2x40 saurus, 10 saurus, 40 skinks, Slann (Vast intellect, Rectrices), Oldblood Carno (Blade of Realities), Sunblood (Light of Dracothian), and a skink priest.

It's the same. The errata just clarifies the duration of the effect (until your next charge phase), rather than not stating when it ends. You can still keep re-rolls for wounds and saves up from your first charge phase to the end of the game.