Beastmen Alliance

[SaJeel]

Before endtimes, were Beastmen and minotaurs strictly chaos? Looking at their kits, they dont have any chaos icons, is there any chance they could get moved to Destruction? or be like merc able to work destruction and chaos?

[TheEverchosen]

They've already been established to be deep in the chaos pocket in the story. Theyre chaos through and through

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[Furious]

Some models also have the symbol of chaos (the arrow-star thing) iconography.

[SaJeel]

12 minutes ago, Furious said:

Some models also have the symbol of chaos (the arrow-star thing) iconography.

Which ones? I havent found any yet, I was thinking because they do seem to fit the destruction theme fairly well, at least from a model perspective, and destruction is fairly lacking and the beastmen kits are very nice, esp the monsters

[Guest]

Beastmen are descended from regular creatures that were warped and mutated by the energies of Chaos in the ancient past. They're known as the 'Children of Chaos' for this reason. Most don't follow a particular Chaos god, but they are creatures of Chaos on the most fundamental level. They are more Chaos than any human cultist or mortal champion will ever be!

[Furious]

4 minutes ago, SaJeel said:

Which ones? I havent found any yet, I was thinking because they do seem to fit the destruction theme fairly well, at least from a model perspective, and destruction is fairly lacking and the beastmen kits are very nice, esp the monsters

It's not super prevalent, but it's on some axes. Check the guy on the right in this image:

[SaJeel]

Ahh cool kk thanks

[Rob P]

At one point in the Old World lore, the justification for Beastman not having daemon princes was explained by the fact that Beastman are wholly made from chaos and within the thrall of chaos. They don't bargain with the gods like other mortals do and they can't therefore gain favour in the same way that other mortals can. Kind of a raw deal really.

 

The newer Tzaangors are arguably a different breed that the traditional beastman.

[Menkeroth]

Not that much, really - also mutated by Chaos energies, though they do differ from older tzaangors in the "Realm of Chaos" dilogy, for example. Anyway, the beastmen really were always children of Chaos, they were also a part of the "Hordes of Chaos" army book back then.

[SaJeel]

What about giants? were they originally chaos? did they retcon them? what was there orignal lore, and what is it now?

[Sehryth7]

Beastmen in 8th ed weren't aligned to a God, they worshiped the chaos moon morrisleb, a massive chunk of warpstone that would appear in the sky and incite bloodshed.

Obviously,  there is no morrisleb in the mortal realms so they could be Destruction Alliance in theory. Would be nice if they could

[Menkeroth]

36 minutes ago, SaJeel said:

What about giants? were they originally chaos? did they retcon them? what was there orignal lore, and what is it now?

No, they were a civilized developed nation known as the Sky Titans. But ogres shattered their domain and scattered those who survived, making them degenerated drunkards they are now. If GW will not rewrite this, of course. 

9 minutes ago, Sehryth7 said:

Beastmen in 8th ed weren't aligned to a God, they worshiped the chaos moon morrisleb, a massive chunk of warpstone that would appear in the sky and incite bloodshed.

Obviously,  there is no morrisleb in the mortal realms so they could be Destruction Alliance in theory. Would be nice if they could

 

Obviously, they are still children of Chaos, are in the Chaos alliance, fight for Nurgle and Tzeentch (plague beastmen and tzaangors respectively) and so on. They simply can't.

[Kaleb Daark]

so... back when i were a lad, beastmen were effectively ripped from Runequest.  In rune quest they were called broo.

GW's beastmen are waaaay tamed down compared to broo, but originally they were not just goats but really anything that could be mutated, but for sake of aesthetic, mostly goats.

They don't curry the favour of chaos like a human but they themselves are creatures of chaos and just carry it's taint irrespective.

They aren't the original children of chaos mind, as in the very early lore it was the fimir who were the first true worshippers of chaos and thus their embittered hatred of all beings, especially as this annoying race called humans evolved and to whom their gods took their favour.  (in this respect I do feel that fimir merit the chaos keyword, not destruction).

but I digress.

To get a real feel of where GW originally took beastmen take a look at the Realm of Chaos; Slaves to Darkness  and Lost and the damned.   After that, they got toned down with each passing edition until they sort of lost their way.

The beastmen were the lurkers in the dark, the eyes in the night, and the wretched deformed creature that you feared would never be born.  

3 hours ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

Beastmen are descended from regular creatures that were warped and mutated by the energies of Chaos in the ancient past. They're known as the 'Children of Chaos' for this reason. Most don't follow a particular Chaos god, but they are creatures of Chaos on the most fundamental level. They are more Chaos than any human cultist or mortal champion will ever be!

In essence this.  Chaos doesn't need to seduce beastmen anymore than it needs to seduce a daemon, they are the stuff of chaos, made mortal flesh, and this is why apart from the few noteworthy characters on the whole the beastmen really have been treated in all the narrative pre and post end times as nothing more than savage beasts with an intellect and awareness.   On more than one occasion it's been noted that the beasts don't want mankind gone out of destructive malice, but really because they are in the way of their own existence.

[awcamawn]

5 hours ago, SaJeel said:

or be like merc able to work destruction and chaos?

While beastmen are certainly chaos through and through, it's worth noting that nothing is stopping you from playing beastmen alongside destruction in open or narrative play. I think you could come up with some interesting fluff behind a beastman and orruk/ogor alliance.

Also might be worth talking to potential opponents in your community, people may be willing to let you mix beatmen with destruction in some very casual matched play, as long as you're up front about it. Especially because they're not considered to be anywhere close to op, as far as I know. If we're all just having fun with our toy soldiers and it's not a highly competitive or tournament setting, why not blur the lines between open/narrative/matched play? Remember the most important rule, and talk it out!

Just a thought, you may be wanting beastmen to gain access to all the destruction allegiance abilities, which may to be harder to convince someone to agree to.

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

Obviously, they are still children of Chaos, are in the Chaos alliance, fight for Nurgle and Tzeentch (plague beastmen and tzaangors respectively) and so on. They simply can't.

Just to be pedantic, the Beastmen that follow and are rewarded by specific Chaos gods are called Khorngor, Pestigor, Tzaangor and Slaangor.

[Menkeroth]

Exactly - I've forgotten that. The rest of them, at least, holds banners with Chaos symbols anyway.

[Nubgan]

God, wouldn't that throw a spanner in the history of old if they decided to go more Bestial with Beastmen and put them in Destruction. Much like humans can serve chaos, I can't see it not being a possibility now that people mention it.

On a side note, threads like this make me sad, theres still a lot of good stuff that needs 'updating' or 'reintroducing', Bretonnia thought they had it bad in 8th!!!

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Nubgan said:

On a side note, threads like this make me sad, theres still a lot of good stuff that needs 'updating' or 'reintroducing', Bretonnia thought they had it bad in 8th!!!

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if GW just decreed that all Brayherd and Warherd units could take Chaos God-specific keywords, it would breathe a whole new lease of life into these factions at a stroke. No need for a big fancy update (although that would be welcome of course).

[Stylus]

18 hours ago, SaJeel said:

Which ones? I havent found any yet, I was thinking because they do seem to fit the destruction theme fairly well, at least from a model perspective, and destruction is fairly lacking and the beastmen kits are very nice, esp the monsters

It's been mentioned already, but they do have the eight-pointed Chaos star on their kits (see this brayhorn's belt buckle)

1 hour ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if GW just decreed that all Brayherd and Warherd units could take Chaos God-specific keywords, it would breathe a whole new lease of life into these factions at a stroke. No need for a big fancy update (although that would be welcome of course).

I agree - it would be great to run mono-god armies that included beastmen (which always seemed appropriate to the way I read the fluff). I'm still holding out hope that, should Nurgle (and even Slaanesh!) eventually get their battletomes, we'll see some Pestigor and Slaangor in there. The Tzaangor kits must surely have been successful enough to encourage more.

[Popisdead]

On 5/8/2017 at 0:36 PM, SaJeel said:

Which ones? I havent found any yet, I was thinking because they do seem to fit the destruction theme fairly well, at least from a model perspective, and destruction is fairly lacking and the beastmen kits are very nice, esp the monsters

Nooo they are chaos.  They are as written "the true children of chaos" in the beginning of the 6th or 7th edition Beast of Chaos/Beastmen book.

 

You should look through some old Lore stuff.  Even in the two Realms of Chaos books (slaves to darkness, lost and the damned) they were chaos and have always been part of chaos.

[Acid_Nine]

8 hours ago, Stylus said:

It's been mentioned already, but they do have the eight-pointed Chaos star on their kits (see this brayhorn's belt buckle)

I agree - it would be great to run mono-god armies that included beastmen (which always seemed appropriate to the way I read the fluff). I'm still holding out hope that, should Nurgle (and even Slaanesh!) eventually get their battletomes, we'll see some Pestigor and Slaangor in there. The Tzaangor kits must surely have been successful enough to encourage more.

I would like to see this as well... it provides some awesome ideas for having a more wild army of chaos that is not vikings in armor, and could open up some fun narrative opportunities.