Let's chat : Maggotkin of Nurgle

[sal4m4nd3r]

3 hours ago, Locien83 said:

Thanks for all the help yesterday back again after considering a few options to move forward.

 

What are your thoughts on this:

Allegiance: Nurgle
The Glottkin (420)
- General
- Lore of Foulness: Plague Squall
Gutrot Spume (140)
Festus The Leechlord (140)
- Lore of Malignance: Gift of Contagion
Bloab Rotspawned (260)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
Lord of Afflictions (220)
- Artefact: Rustfang 
28 x Chaos Marauders (180)
- Axes
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
2 x Pusgoyle Blightlords (220)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
Plaguetouched Warband (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000

I agree with poltron.. somewhat. I dont think its to character heavy. Any rotbringers army will be. But  I think you either need more kings of more pusgoyles. My advice is more organizational than substantive.

Also give glotkin the blades of putrefaction spell.. as he is going to be casting on the marauders anyway (fleshy abundance). Give Festus the plague squall spell so he has the option of a damage spell or a debuff spell depending on scenario.  Also make sure he is ALWAYS within 1" of glotkin for additional healing. And give gift of contagion to bloab (if you keep him in the list) which synergizes with his deamon flies ability. 

[Niedzwiedz]

On 2/19/2018 at 3:01 PM, Locien83 said:

 

It is a shame that I really don't like the marauder models as they would seem to plug that gap but I just think they are rather ugly and not particularly nurgle looking!

I was considering the same thing recently, and was looking at Poxwalkers too, but had the same impression, that someone've mentioned - they did not look "AoSy" enough for me.

I've tried to find something as close to marauders as possible, and in the end - in my opinion Bloodreavers are great. They do not look like followers of Nurgle, but as hughwyeth mentioned - according to old fluff they don't have too (I guess they are just marauders, "junior" followers, not earned a lot of gifts yet). You just need to remove Khorne symbols, cut the weapons from left hands, and get some shields for them - and will look perfect (unlike marauders, they are really great models).

[Locien83]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

I agree with poltron.. somewhat. I dont think its to character heavy. Any rotbringers army will be. But  I think you either need more kings of more pusgoyles. My advice is more organizational than substantive.

Also give glotkin the blades of putrefaction spell.. as he is going to be casting on the marauders anyway (fleshy abundance). Give Festus the plague squall spell so he has the option of a damage spell or a debuff spell depending on scenario.  Also make sure he is ALWAYS within 1" of glotkin for additional healing. And give gift of contagion to bloab (if you keep him in the list) which synergizes with his deamon flies ability. 

 

1 hour ago, Poltron said:

It seems solid, but I wonder if it's too character heavy? I dont know which character I would move out, either Bload or Lord of Affliction, although he's your only not-named character, so let's try to remove Bloab.

It opens up the door to buff your Pusgoyles to 4, making them the hammer they want to be (or 2 units of 2 if you prefer, with Glottkin it doesnt matter as much, but for Blades it's better 4), and you can boost your marauder to 35 for 20 points. leaving you 20.

Whatever you choose to remove, I would buff the pusgoyle and the marauders, 35 at double wounds and mystic shield will go a long way, and it's the only unit you have that will dish out mortal wounds when wound on 6. And make sure to put axe and shield, and both banners in it, they'll need it.

 

Thanks for the advice, that is really helpful and definitely gives me something to think about.

 

A lot of the list design there was based around getting characters I love coupled with being somewhat competitive.  I have a lotf of the stuff already so would only need the big boys (glottkin, bloab and whatever i decide to do for marauders).

 

I may get some more Blightkings and some more Pusgoyles anyway to give myself options once I finally get everything and start testing. 

[Locien83]

56 minutes ago, Niedzwiedz said:

I was considering the same thing recently, and was looking at Poxwalkers too, but had the same impression, that someone've mentioned - they did not look "AoSy" enough for me.

I've tried to find something as close to marauders as possible, and in the end - in my opinion Bloodreavers are great. They do not look like followers of Nurgle, but as hughwyeth mentioned - according to old fluff they don't have too (I guess they are just marauders, "junior" followers, not earned a lot of gifts yet). You just need to remove Khorne symbols, cut the weapons from left hands, and get some shields for them - and will look perfect (unlike marauders, they are really great models).

I have been looking at maybe just using converted Gors instead as marauder proxies, I know it probably wouldn't be accepted at a lot of tournaments but I like the Gor models and they fit the current AoS fluff as a lot of the books have Rotbringer armies supported by beastmen.

[LordRogalDorn]

1 hour ago, Niedzwiedz said:

I've tried to find something as close to marauders as possible, and in the end - in my opinion Bloodreavers are great. They do not look like followers of Nurgle, but as hughwyeth mentioned - according to old fluff they don't have too (I guess they are just marauders, "junior" followers, not earned a lot of gifts yet). You just need to remove Khorne symbols, cut the weapons from left hands, and get some shields for them - and will look perfect (unlike marauders, they are really great models).

Just be careful with base sizes if that matters to you. Blood reavers are on 32mm and mauraders are on 25mm.

[hughwyeth]

16 minutes ago, LordRogalDorn said:

Just be careful with base sizes if that matters to you. Blood reavers are on 32mm and mauraders are on 25mm.

Important point. 25mm is big boon for marauders. Second row can always attack with bases that small!

[Sigmalthus]

I really dislike the old marauder models as well. But find myself always have enough points left to fit a unit in as a cheap backfield objective holder. I "AOS-ified" some poxwalkers. Shields from the Skeleton kit, and small weapon converts. I think they'll do their job!

[Spiky Norman]

6 hours ago, Locien83 said:

Thanks for all the help yesterday back again after considering a few options to move forward.

What are your thoughts on this:

Allegiance: Nurgle
The Glottkin (420)
- General
- Lore of Foulness: Plague Squall
Gutrot Spume (140)
Festus The Leechlord (140)
- Lore of Malignance: Gift of Contagion
Bloab Rotspawned (260)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
Lord of Afflictions (220)
- Artefact: Rustfang 
28 x Chaos Marauders (180)
- Axes
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
2 x Pusgoyle Blightlords (220)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
Plaguetouched Warband (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000

The Plaguetouched Warband consists of 1 hero and 7 units, so wouldn't that mean that you have one too many units in your army, making it 2-drop and having one not benefit from the Battalion?

Of course it is easily solved, if you want to bring 10 Blightkings with Gutrot, but as others have mentioned, perhaps a bit of rearranging might make it even sharper.

[annarborhawk]

Ran some numbers on  the various ways to buff Blight Kings' damage output.

Bottom line: (1)  I don't think either of the Cyst Battalions is worth it as far as damage output goes, unless you are running  30 or more Kings; (2)  Both Lord of Blights and Lord of Plagues basically have the same effect on damage output; (3)  Most cost-effective in terms of pure damage output is to run a single unit of 20x Kings buffed by either Lord with a Sorcerer casting Blades of Putrification; (4) If you are only running 10 Kings, it's better to add 5 more, than to buff the unit of 10 in anyway.

The numbers:

[(x/y/z) where x is expect damage vs. soft target (avg 6+ save); y is exp. damg vs. med. target (avg 4+ save); z is exp. dmg. vs. hard target (avg 3+ save)]:

 

Small formations:

Unit(s) totalling 15x Kings [480 pts] =(27/16.5/10.5)

Unit 10x Kings + either Lord [460 pts] =(21/13/8)

Unit 10x Kings + Blades  of Put.  (sorcerer)[440 pts] = (20.5/13.5/9.5)

 

Larger formations:

Unit(s) totalling 30x Kings [960 pts] =(54/33/21)

Unitof 20x kings + either lord + sorcerer [840 points] = (59/33/23)

5x Kings + 5x Kings + 10x Kings + either lord + cyst  [1000 pts] =(48/28/20)

5x Kings + 5x Kings + 5x Kings + Lord + cyst + Blades [960 pts] = (35/20/14)

 

 

EDIT: I  forgot to figure-in probability of failure to cast blades - updated numbers to reflect that.

[Poltron]

7 minutes ago, annarborhawk said:

Bottom line: (1)  I don't think either of the Cyst Battalions is worth it as far as damage output goes, unless you are running  30 or more Kings; (2)  Both Lord of Blights and Lord of Plagues basically have the same effect on damage output; (3)  Most cost-effective in terms of pure damage output is to run a single unit of 20x Kings buffed by either Lord with a Sorcerer casting Blades of Putrification; (4) If you are only running 10 Kings, it's better to add 5 more, than to buff the unit of 10 in anyway.

Hum I wouldnt put the -1 rend Cyst out of the window though. I play against Stormcast alot, and even when ganking a priest with 5 kings (almost the max you can attack him with), he managed to pass all 24 wounds, without a scratch. A -1 rend would have helped that 5 man bk unit kill him instead. A unit of 15 would have the same result, the other 10 bk would stare and eat a counter charge.

At 15 bk, you normally cant manage to bring them all in combat, so a buff is usually better. If you can always bring 15 bk in CC, something is wrong in your opponent strategy.

 

Not that big units of BK are bad, more wounds is good, but they normally wouldnt be able to attack at the same time every time.

 

[annarborhawk]

6 minutes ago, Poltron said:

Hum I wouldnt put the -1 rend Cyst out of the window though. I play against Stormcast alot, and even when ganking a priest with 5 kings (almost the max you can attack him with), he managed to pass all 24 wounds, without a scratch. A -1 rend would have helped that 5 man bk unit kill him instead. A unit of 15 would have the same result, the other 10 bk would stare and eat a counter charge.

At 15 bk, you normally cant manage to bring them all in combat, so a buff is usually better. If you can always bring 15 bk in CC, something is wrong in your opponent strategy.

 

Not that big units of BK are bad, more wounds is good, but they normally wouldnt be able to attack at the same time every time.

 

I agree.  Realistically, it's tough to get one big unit all into combat. Especially with 40mm bases and 1" range. Nevertheless, based on the numbers it looks like the Battalions are a bit overpriced. 

[Poltron]

Yeah most Maggotkin batallions, while good for one drops and +1 artifacts, seems overpriced  for games = or below 2000.

My friend who play Slayers have batallions that doubles their shooting attack and allow for 6" pile in, for 80 points. You could fit 2 batallions in a 2000 games at that price if you wanted.

It's actually hard to price because of the one drop and artifact benefit, but for the rules alone, it doesnt seem worth it when playing 1k or 2k games.

[shadowgra]

add to the 220 of the cyst the 140 of a fairly useless lord of  blights and you start understanding that cyst isn't really that strong (unless you make him the general, but then you lose better generals).

it's a shame that everything in our book is so expensive. i often  run out of points when making lists, expecially with cyst or daemons in. plaguetouched is the cheapest and strongest batallion we have by far

[annarborhawk]

17 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

add to the 220 of the cyst the 140 of a fairly useless lord of  blights and you start understanding that cyst isn't really that strong (unless you make him the general, but then you lose better generals).

it's a shame that everything in our book is so expensive. i often  run out of points when making lists, expecially with cyst or daemons in. plaguetouched is the cheapest and strongest batallion we have by far

I included the points for the cyst and the lord in the analysis. 

[sal4m4nd3r]

1 hour ago, annarborhawk said:

Ran some numbers on  the various ways to buff Blight Kings' damage output.

Bottom line: (1)  I don't think either of the Cyst Battalions is worth it as far as damage output goes, unless you are running  30 or more Kings; (2)  Both Lord of Blights and Lord of Plagues basically have the same effect on damage output; (3)  Most cost-effective in terms of pure damage output is to run a single unit of 20x Kings buffed by either Lord with a Sorcerer casting Blades of Putrification; (4) If you are only running 10 Kings, it's better to add 5 more, than to buff the unit of 10 in anyway.

The numbers:

[(x/y/z) where x is expect damage vs. soft target (avg 6+ save); y is exp. damg vs. med. target (avg 4+ save); z is exp. dmg. vs. hard target (avg 3+ save)]:

 

Small formations:

Unit(s) totalling 15x Kings [480 pts] =(27/16.5/10.5)

Unit 10x Kings + either Lord [460 pts] =(21/13/8)

Unit 10x Kings + Blades  of Put.  (sorcerer)[440 pts] = (20.5/13.5/9.5)

 

Larger formations:

Unit(s) totalling 30x Kings [960 pts] =(54/33/21)

Unitof 20x kings + either lord + sorcerer [840 points] = (59/33/23)

5x Kings + 5x Kings + 10x Kings + either lord + cyst  [1000 pts] =(48/28/20)

5x Kings + 5x Kings + 5x Kings + Lord + cyst + Blades [960 pts] = (35/20/14)

 

 

EDIT: I  forgot to figure-in probability of failure to cast blades - updated numbers to reflect that.

Thank you for your contribution! That is very helpful and adds a lot to our discussions! As others have said.. for me the battalions are two rich for my blood (or..err pus). With three ways to reduce saves in the army book that I can think of (rustfang, festus and gift of contagion).. its simply to much for me. Also with death and seraphon (two very popular armies) having resistance to rend --1 weapons.. its dicey to take a blight cyst to a tournament. Weird because someone just went #2 with a blight cyst at CanCon in Aussie...

David Kerr – Maggotkin of Nurgle

Leaders 
The Glottkin (420)
– General (Big Daddy D the dope OG)
Lord of Blights (140)
– Rustfang
Gutrot Spume (140)
Poxbringer (120)
– Tome Of A Thousand Poxes

Battleline
30 Plaguebearers (320)
10 Blight Kings (320)
5 Blight Kings (160)
5 Blight Kings (160)

Battalions
Blight Cyst (220)

Total 2000/2000

[sal4m4nd3r]

1 hour ago, Sigmalthus said:

I really dislike the old marauder models as well. But find myself always have enough points left to fit a unit in as a cheap backfield objective holder. I "AOS-ified" some poxwalkers. Shields from the Skeleton kit, and small weapon converts. I think they'll do their job!

This is SO PERFECTLY timed for me. THANK YOU!!! I just heard back from adepticon that they will approve pox walkers as marauders as long as there isnt any tech bits (masks, chem tanks etc) and they are all WYSIWYG with regards to shields and command. I have a buddy who is a big big death player and probably has loads of these. Might try to make it easier on me and greenstuff the boney arm (i can greenstuff some flesh onto it) and shield protruding from somewhere on the model as opposed to trying to fit it into a hand or tentacle!

[Sigmalthus]

3 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

This is SO PERFECTLY timed for me. THANK YOU!!! I just heard back from adepticon that they will approve pox walkers as marauders as long as there isnt any tech bits (masks, chem tanks etc) and they are all WYSIWYG with regards to shields and command. I have a buddy who is a big big death player and probably has loads of these. Might try to make it easier on me and greenstuff the boney arm (i can greenstuff some flesh onto it) and shield protruding from somewhere on the model as opposed to trying to fit it into a hand or tentacle!

Oh nice! Yeah I just went and cut off as much of the 40k bits as I could. I like em. I dislike the older models so much I would intentionally write lists to avoid them as I use mainly Kings. But so often I just find myself with 60-100 points left that theres no GOOD reason not to include them.

[NurglesFirstChosen]

@sal4m4nd3r do you think plague squal is any good? From what I’ve seen it’s generally pretty poor - hard to cast and when it does go off it can be inconsistent. Maybe cloying quagmire instead would be a decent option? Especially coupled with festus save characteristic debuff? 

You’re far more experienced than me and I’d be interested read your thoughts on this.  

*just re read the festus spell and I see it’s -1 to save rolls not save characteristic - without the battletome in front of me I’m not sure if that’d impact on the quagmire spell. 

[shadowgra]

9 hours ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

@sal4m4nd3r do you think plague squal is any good? From what I’ve seen it’s generally pretty poor - hard to cast and when it does go off it can be inconsistent. Maybe cloying quagmire instead would be a decent option? Especially coupled with festus save characteristic debuff? 

You’re far more experienced than me and I’d be interested read your thoughts on this.  

*just re read the festus spell and I see it’s -1 to save rolls not save characteristic - without the battletome in front of me I’m not sure if that’d impact on the quagmire spell. 

Quagmire works on the number on the scroll regardless of modifiers

I think that quagmire is way overrated. You have to cast the spell, then you have to roll a second die and also it is situational and based on your opponent army choices. Also is a 14" spell, and between this and festus one i know which one i want to cast 100% of the times.

Our wizards lack ranged option, it's not unusual to spend a couple of turns before using 14" spells. So the option i really consider for our wizards are: blades (if you play a blade list), buboes (good overall spell) and squall.

Squall in my games was pretty consistent and 6 is not hard to cast. It dealt averagely 3d3 mortals in 2 turns so i have been satisfied with my choice

[NurglesFirstChosen]

1 minute ago, shadowgra said:

Quagmire works on the number on the scroll regardless of modifiers

I think that quagmire is way overrated. You have to cast the spell, then you have to roll a second die and also it is situational and based on your opponent army choices. Also is a 14" spell, and between this and festus one i know which one i want to cast 100% of the times.

Our wizards lack ranged option, it's not unusual to spend a couple of turns before using 14" spells. So the option i really consider for our wizards are: blades (if you play a blade list), buboes (good overall spell) and squall.

Squall in my games was pretty consistent and 6 is not hard to cast. It dealt averagely 3d3 mortals in 2 turns so i have been satisfied with my choice

Fair point about the range - needing one for distances and one for close up. 

Ah yeah I forgot it’s only 6 to cast, I was thinking it’s a 7 like most our spells haha.

About the damage average of squall however I’m still not convinced from what I’ve seen in the 3 games I’ve taken squall. That being said 3 games is only 3 games. Sure you ain’t playing with wiegthed dice if it’s that’s your average? 6’s out of 7 dice doesn’t seem that consistent to me. I might give it another go however. 

[hughwyeth]

So I just had a great, challenging game against Seraphon. 2k, Scorched earth. This is a little bit the nightmare scenario for me- a force that can pop up anywhere thanks to teleportation, in a scenario where you want to burn the other's objectives and don't need to hold them. I took my ever-developing, but nearly decided GT list:

Allegiance: Nurgle

Leaders
The Glottkin (420)
- General
-Plague Squall
Sorcerer (120)
-Blades of Putrefaction
Gutrot Spume (140)
Daemon Prince of Nurgle (160)
-Nurgle's Nail

Battleline
10 x Putrid Blightkings (320)
- Nurgle Battleline
30 x Plaguebearers (320)
30 x Plaguebearers (320)

Units
3 x Plague Drones (200)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 154

He had a carnosaur, bastilodon, 20 saurus guard, starmaster, 30 saurus warriors, 20 skinks, astrolith bearer, starpriest, eternity warden and an old blood (I'm about 90% sure this was the list, might be a few things wrong!)

I'm sure you guys know, Seraphon's strength is the crazy buffs from characters and their magic. Ideally, taking out their characters is the first thing to do but wasn't really possible due to his deployment. IN addition, it was unlikely i would get more than 1 or 2 spells off the whole game due to the 3 unbinds (with unlimited range) at +1 or +2 depending on buffs. WIth that in mind, i thought my offensive capability was limited to blightkings and drones/DP. The plaguebearers stayed on my 3 objectives, with the glottkin supporting holding the central one. The plaguebearers, sorcerer and GLottkin basically didn't move the whole game except for some slight re-arranging to deny teleportation behind my line and to maintain the bubble buff range from the glottkin.  

I gave him the first turn in round 1 because I needed to be reactive considering his teleportation ability. Not much happened for him turn 1 except setting up dozens and dozens off buffs! I deep striked Gutrot and the 10BKs near the carnosaur which was garding one of his objectives. They managed to both successfully charge and reduce it to 2 wounds and burn the objective turn 1! The drones cautiously moved forward but didn't engage. My strategy was then to move the BKs, Gutrot, the drones and the DP across the table on his side and slowly try to reach and burn the next objective. Ultimately the got bogged down by some saurus warriors with -1 to hit (thus the BKs hit rolls of 6 ->d6 never happened), but the drones managed to hassle near the middle objective on his side and distract him from confronting the plaguebearers, who saw zero combat until the end of turn 4. The BKs were really the star of the show (my first time seeing them have much success!). They managed to take out the carnosaur, all 30 warriors and even the Bastilodon! It had 2+ save, re-rolling 1s for half the game, but a combination of some mortal wounds from spells/nurgle allegiance abilities and an overwhelming number of wounds from BKs' exploding 6s in a turn it wasn't buffed meant it finally went in turn 4. 

The game ended 16-12 to me and I felt like I finally played my list correctly, which is weird because the glottkin didn't really do anything. It successfully cast plague squall (which i love because of the unlimited range and lower casting cost, but is pretty unreliable) once, rolling 3 6s and managed to cast the spell to give +1 wound to some plaguebearers for turn 4, and in turn 5, when I knew I had won, charged the saurus guard and took out 5 of them, only to be taken down to 4 wounds in the same turn.

I took nurgle's nail on the DP which was the wrong choice but I hadn't had time to decide beforehand so had to quickly choose as we were setting up the scenario. Not sure what artefact would work in this list- I'm thinking the carrion dirge for -2 bravery?

[shadowgra]

1 hour ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

Fair point about the range - needing one for distances and one for close up. 

Ah yeah I forgot it’s only 6 to cast, I was thinking it’s a 7 like most our spells haha.

About the damage average of squall however I’m still not convinced from what I’ve seen in the 3 games I’ve taken squall. That being said 3 games is only 3 games. Sure you ain’t playing with wiegthed dice if it’s that’s your average? 6’s out of 7 dice doesn’t seem that consistent to me. I might give it another go however. 

Ha ha dunno about weighted dice, i have the Nurgle death guard dice.

However 3 6s out of 14 dice is slightly above average

[Vomikron Noxis]

Have you tried the Witherstave on that DP? Seems a solid choice. Or even Endless Gift to keep him alive.

[hughwyeth]

30 minutes ago, Vomikron Noxis said:

Have you tried the Witherstave on that DP? Seems a solid choice. Or even Endless Gift to keep him alive.

Endless gift is probably the one. He's such a target with the locus on the drones almost doubling their attacks. 

[Vomikron Noxis]

37 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

Endless gift is probably the one. He's such a target with the locus on the drones almost doubling their attacks. 

Yeh I find keeping my DP alive is a bit of a nightmare. Part of the reason I’m also running Slimux as a back up locus provider (running every turn, plus the bonus move from the bell, means he can more or less keep up if I need him to).