WoollyMammoth Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 @Davariel Nagash is not death exactly. He has a great will over most of them, but not utter control over all. Much happens with death that he does not know about. Mannfred is always plotting in secret behind his back. His power is greatly drained since the destruction of his pyramid, and the fact that Sigmar is stealing the most powerful souls for his own army is greatly diminishing Nagash's power. In the Flesh Eater Courts book, they talk about many courts that work independently. The original Abhorrent in fact is an affront to Nagash's will and the great necromancer is hunting him. When Nagash shows up to the party, however, no undead can resist him and he pretty much just takes over. @Russellbogentoff Yeah its tough. Elf players mostly rage quit. People are still going to have to wait a long time for particular factions to get new models. Most people have just filled in the gaps by starting an army with an easy point of entry like Stormcast or Bloodbound. I got into Stormcast, Seraphon and Deamons since the start of AoS. Death is my favorite but I have many large armies. If you played a neglected faction, you can still fill in your army with tons of awesome new models. Lets say you play Empire, you can support some of your favorite old models with Sylvaneth, Stormcast or Fyreslayers. If you play Death there is nothing. I already had multiple boxes of everything in Vampire Counts before AoS even started. Sorry but my disappointment peaked when the generals handbook came out with no death, and now its half a year later and there is still not even a whisper on the wind of even a random death hero in a board game or something. I know one day there will be new death but I didn't think an entire alliance was going to have to wait half this long for new models of any kind. I should appreciate the time I have to paint I guess. Maybe things will get crazy and there will be a ton of death releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russellbogentoff Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 What kind of things would you like to see if their eventual release? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I think I completely understand where most people are coming from on this. Order has, so far received the largest number of new releases and originally contained the vast majority of factions to begin with. From where I'm sat, I can see the logic of this from a storyline perspective - it hooks into the pretty major win Order received in the Seeds of Hope event and continues Sigmar's plan of unleashing his armies. I can also see the logic of this from a business perspective - to coin Alan Sugar's oft-used phrase you "smell what sells" and then follow it. Sadly I do think that leaves us as players/hobbiests in a bit of a conundrum. I'm fairly convinced that the "unloved" GA's and factions are likely on a master plan that may be some three or four (plus) years in the future. Releases need to work with the storyline, which currently is cities and towns springing up and the machinations of Tzeentch. GW have heavily pushed that it's Order in ascendancy which isn't likely to change any time soon, so we're going to have to get used to the fact that Order are going to receive the lions share of releases for a while yet. As a Bloodbound/Death player it is somewhat galling to see Stormcast having new units that add in new play styles and fill in gaps in their repertoire, especially when the armies I collect feel neglected or missing parts. However, the nature of AoS means that it's not a lot of work for people to have armies from more than one GA to keep things interesting. Amongst the people I regularly play against, we've four Chaos, three Order, three Death and one destruction army. The only double is actually Nurgle Though situations will vary depending upon who you play. TL:DR - Yes, I'd love there to be some Death releases and some missing Bloodbound bits - however I can understand that it wouldn't fit into the storyline quite yet so will continue keeping my fingers crossed for something in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I think it's was a case of massaging the narrative to have Order win in the summer campaign. Which was quite important in how the story developed (given all the "we want normal people in cities" comments) and to be fair all the order releases did make sure that happened. Also could be that GW is waiting on a bit of inspiration on how to fit the older stuff into the current narrative without it just being the old fluff shoe horned into AoS. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsmith Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 13 minutes ago, RuneBrush said: Sadly I do think that leaves us as players/hobbiests in a bit of a conundrum. I'm fairly convinced that the "unloved" GA's and factions are likely on a master plan that may be some three or four (plus) years in the future. Releases need to work with the storyline, which currently is cities and towns springing up and the machinations of Tzeentch. GW have heavily pushed that it's Order in ascendancy which isn't likely to change any time soon, so we're going to have to get used to the fact that Order are going to receive the lions share of releases for a while yet. But why must that equal order/stormcast being given rules preference keeping them at the top? I don't see when they stop ascending in fluff other armies being given counters to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Those noting that the release follow the fluff don't realise that's actually the reverse of how GW operates, as explained on their Twitch channel. GW produce a concept in the Design Studio, then progress it to a prototype model that gets handed over to the rules writers. From there, fluff and rules are written around that prototype model. Order are prioritised because Order sell, and the fluff simply supports their releases. As a Death player, yeah, I feel very left out a lot of the time. I hope we get a Disciples of Tzeentch style release, but I've seen Sisters of Battle players waiting Ad Infinitum for GW love, so I'm not holding out hope. Sadly Death don't really live up to what I hoped for in a lot of ways: model variety, functional factions, and the lore having it all be basically one character's pet faction. Personally I'd love to see a Deathrattle/Nighthaunt/Soulblight Death release in a similar vein to DoT's Arcanites/Daemons/Tzaangors setup, to give the three largest factions some legs to stand on, at least. I'd then love a Settra return, rising as a power to threaten Nagash' hold over the power of Death, because Settra is an awesome character, reimagined Tomb Kings could look baws, and it'd be a great fluff shake-up that could leave Nagash very imperiled in his current weakened state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Their design process and release schedule are two different things. Stuff will be designed and waiting to be released at what GW deems to be the best time for them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 5 minutes ago, Soulsmith said: But why must that equal order/stormcast being given rules preference keeping them at the top? I don't see when they stop ascending in fluff other armies being given counters to them. I think that it was likely always the plan to have lots of Stormcast rules and models (plus they sell well). Please don't think that this is me approving of Stormcast receiving rules and models when others don't, simply me accepting that it's not somebody picking on me for not playing them. 3 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said: Those noting that the release follow the fluff don't realise that's actually the reverse of how GW operates, as explained on their Twitch channel. GW produce a concept in the Design Studio, then progress it to a prototype model that gets handed over to the rules writers. From there, fluff and rules are written around that prototype model. Order are prioritised because Order sell, and the fluff simply supports their releases. I've spoken to quite a few staff at various Open Days during 2016 and the process isn't entirely set in stone. Sometimes a sculptor will have a really good idea and be allowed to run with it, othertimes it'll come from design and another time it may come from management (bypassing design entirely). The concepts that are sculpted come from all over the place - Black Library, conversions the sculptor has seen, films, sketch books etc. As you say the rules normally come about once something has been sculpted, they may receive something complete or a very rough 3d-print but it'll be enough for them to produce rules for it. And @Ollie Grimwood is completely correct, when something gets released is a different matter entirely! This is why I say I'm interested to see the date on the new sprues because it's entirely possible something like the Gryph Hounds were done a year ago. The Imperial Knight wasn't released for over 18 months for example and I'm sure there are more models that sit in a warehouse for months that we're not aware of. I'm still fairly positive that there is a heavy fluff bias to AoS of which parts are communicated to each team involved. We know models are done ~2 years in advance so why can't the fluff be written in advance too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 23 minutes ago, RuneBrush said: I'm still fairly positive that there is a heavy fluff bias to AoS of which parts are communicated to each team involved. We know models are done ~2 years in advance so why can't the fluff be written in advance too? Writing a book it's a lengthy process. Probably harder than creating models. The content of the books is likely done using excisting models as reference points, inspiration and as part of the story. So while the models may have been made they require them in order to build a good solid story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nubgan Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I think the big problem they have with Death is that its hard to distinguish the units currently in the Death range from things in other fantasty universes. We have seen a rebrand on a lot of stuff to make it not 'replicate' any other franchises elsewhere. But what can you really add to Death without 'ripping off' another setting. Personally I would love to see Vampires and Werewolves utilised in some way, not just as heroes, but as units with behomoths and artilery pieces to suit. But the issue most people have aluded too already is that they are trying hard to get a story and setting to accompany the release and something like a random Death release with no story context probably doesn't fit in the plan too fantastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayniac Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Nubgan said: I think the big problem they have with Death is that its hard to distinguish the units currently in the Death range from things in other fantasty universes. We have seen a rebrand on a lot of stuff to make it not 'replicate' any other franchises elsewhere. But what can you really add to Death without 'ripping off' another setting. Personally I would love to see Vampires and Werewolves utilised in some way, not just as heroes, but as units with behomoths and artilery pieces to suit. But the issue most people have aluded too already is that they are trying hard to get a story and setting to accompany the release and something like a random Death release with no story context probably doesn't fit in the plan too fantastically. The issue is that Death was one faction that got split into multiple; Order is many factions that got combined into one. There's a fundamental disconnect with that because Death is stretched super thin due to being split up, without the different subfactions being fleshed out enough to stand alone. The Death GA is basically just the old Undead army book, so it's still a single faction that has many different parts that don't really work on their own. Also, this is what I was afraid of with how GW operates: Order will get the lion's share of everything because they A) Have the most factions so would get more releases just by that alone, and B) Tend to have a lot of the more popular factions in them; in fact Order has most of the Old World factions anyways, so around 75% of WHFB is in one grouping! Which now suffers from the same problem the Imperium does in 40k. And also gives the finger to narrative gamers because it's pretty hard to justify Order vs. Order in a lot of cases (it can be done, but nowhere near as easily as with Chaos or Destruction, for example). The Grand Alliance concept is nice, but it should have been something like: Humans: Stormcast, Empire, Bretonnia Duardin: Fyreslayers and forthcoming Steamhead Aelves: High Elves and Sylvaneth, Wood Elves included as part of Sylvaneth Chaos: As now plus Dark Elves (go back to their roots as Slaaneshi cult) Death: Still in the same situation it is now, but could be fleshed out, also Tomb Kings as Deathrattle Destruction: Orcs, goblins, ogors Each with their own goals/ambitions, so maybe Humans/Aelves/Duardin ally against Chaos, but they aren't really "allies" and can clash over things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanatos Ares Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Each with their own goals/ambitions, so maybe Humans/Aelves/Duardin ally against Chaos, but they aren't really "allies" and can clash over things. Surely this is the case already? Despite them all being 'order' though? And has always been the case?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanatos Ares Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Damn my edit skills are bad, sorry [emoji23]Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayniac Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 13 minutes ago, Thanatos Ares said: Surely this is the case already? Despite them all being 'order' though? And has always been the case? Not that I've seen. Other than Fyreslayers who are mercenaries, and as a result might have some reason to go after Stormcast or Sylvaneth, I can't think of a reason that isn't lame and contrived why Stormcast would fight Sylvaneth or Freeguild or why Aelves would fight Seraphon (although Seraphon being Seraphon, they might do odd things because that's how they roll). It seems to be similar to the Imperium stuff in 40k; there are very rare circumstances where AdMech would fight Marines or Guard, but without contrived situations it's an extremely rare thing to happen since they are on the same side. This is also kinda where I think GW drops the ball too; they should explain that just because Order are united against Chaos, there are reasons why they can fight each other and give actual examples of it to start the gears turning, because for all intents and purposes it seems like they are all allied and would not reasonably wage war with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I think part of the problem is that they are basing what new stuff to bring out on what people are buying, but people are buying based on what new stuff GW are bringing out. For example, is it any wonder that Order win campaigns when “Order” encompasses more than half the armies out there? Is it surprising that Death isn't selling when Death hadn't had any new releases? Maybe more people want to play Order than Death, and would do so even if both ranges were equal, but right now it's hard to tell, because these campaign results are creating a feedback loop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayniac Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 25 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said: I think part of the problem is that they are basing what new stuff to bring out on what people are buying, but people are buying based on what new stuff GW are bringing out. For example, is it any wonder that Order win campaigns when “Order” encompasses more than half the armies out there? Is it surprising that Death isn't selling when Death hadn't had any new releases? Maybe more people want to play Order than Death, and would do so even if both ranges were equal, but right now it's hard to tell, because these campaign results are creating a feedback loop. That's how GW always does things, though. They don't care about the game at all, they care about selling product. So what sells gets more releases, so it sells more because new shiny/actually supported, so GW sees that it sells more, and puts more effort into it. They are completely unwilling to take risks and update something that COULD sell well, because they don't KNOW it sells well. You see it in 40k all the time. Imperium (Marines specifically) get the most releases because they have the most support and sell the most, so they continue to sell the most because people gravitate towards what actually gets releases, because otherwise who knows when you'll get updates. So factions like Orks or Chaos for the most part get shafted because people see they don't get updates and go play Marines instead. Same thing here. Death got barely any updates, so people don't want to play them, so GW sees "Death isn't selling, let's ignore them for now and push more Stormcast/Sylvaneth that people buy" so those factions get more people to buy them. It's ridiculous from a game point of view, and IMHO shows how little GW actually gives a damn about the actual game, as long as people buy whatever new shiny comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasshpit Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 This is pure speculation but perhaps another factor into why death has received the least amount of love is because GW are planning a massive overhaul update to the product line and wants to give it a chance to get rid of what's left first. Let's use the Deathrattle faction as an example. Now the existing models are great but not on par with siz and dynamic posing of recent releases. So maybe they're just biding their time and letting some old stock sell off before they dump a massive overhaul to a large amount of the whole existing grand alliance. Or I could just be wishlisting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I'm going to have to say no to your claim GW don't take risks. For example, the Genestealer Cult release last year was them banking on the concept grabbing a lot more attention than it had in its previous incarnation. Given that it's a subset of a weak faction, it was a big risk that seemed to pay off, (it helped that the models are fantastic conversion fodder.) Not to mention the General's Handbook, which was an attempt to court new players that also results in a thread on here every week or so about how Matched Play is the devil. I think the Grand Alliances were a stopgap measure, just like the Compendium Warscrolls. We're still in the transitory period between games while the foundations get laid out for the big players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Matched play is the Devil though [emoji13]*I think it's a little bit of a misnomer to say that GW doesn't care about the game. Yes they are a model company in that's now they make their money but they do realise the importance of having a game to make that happen. Given the investment they've put into Warhammer Tv I'd suggest they believe it to be very important. I think that Grand Alliances will stay but the factions contained within them will change they may even swap factions between them depending on how the story goes. *unless I'm playing it, in which case it's brilliant. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoollyMammoth Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 @Russellbogentoff@Nubgan There are endless things you could do. Zombie ironjaws or ogors. Skeletal Dracoth or Stardrakes (or some kind of monster we have never seen yet). Mummified Skaven. They could take literally anything and make it dead and put it in Death. Nothing escapes death (except stormcasts I guess). There is limitless ideas they could do and they all tie into a completly unique IP. @RuneBrush They organized into 4 groups for a reason. There is no way death has to wait 4 years, thats insane. I can understand a faction like free peoples or Aelves, but not an entire alliance. Also the lore follows the models, not vice versa One issue is with all the order releases, the game is becoming "good guys" vs "good guys". The books may be nurgle vs stormcast or sylaneth vs Ironjaws, but the scene is becoming mostly order vs order! @Ollie Grimwood@wayniac This is what is upsetting about the summer campaign and the blatant issue with balance. They release Stormcast, Fyreslayers and Sylvaneth, then have a campaign to see what people like and its 50% order, so this must mean people want MORE order right? No it means Order is way too dominant and we need something different. They could have easily released 3 new death armies and death would have won for sure. As for your point about spiriting into 6 factions, i said the same thing earlier. @Arkiham Yes a book is lengthy, but these are kind of power writers whos plot outline is laid out for them and they just have to fill it in. I think Gav said they get a contract for 6 months to write. They could simply get artists renditions of future models in order to work with, while the models are still in production. For production they have to fully design then build some of the most advanced molds in the world, then produce package and ship them, which likely takes a lot longer than publishing a book (through their own publishing company). Regardless, in all examples, the models lead the narrative not the other way around. Warhammer is first and foremost a tabletop game not a publishing company. @Vasshpit On a large scale they will probably replace everything, but probably over 30 years. there is no reason to sell off merchandise that is selling well. Ghouls and Skeletons are still popular and there is no reason to dump them. They could drop a new undead faction without having to kill any old models. For example Fyreslayers did not discontinue the Dispossessed. Simply encourage awesome new IPs so more people play them instead of old easy to copy IPs. Tomb Kings were most likely discontinued because they were predominantly ugly resin models, just not enough there to salvage. Meanwhile they likely have a new "mummy" faction that will be among the first new Death to drop, so these 'old' mummies kind of conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I honestly suspect Tomb Kings were, at least in part, killed off by their 8th edition army book. GW made them basically unplayable in a competitive environment, which killed sales, but at the same time refused to acknowledge any correlation between game balance and sales, blaming it on TK just being“unpopular” instead. I really don't think ugly resin was to blame. Not with the Sphinx kit, the Snakes, the plastic chariots and skeletons. Sure, there were some old models, but I think the main reason people associate TK with ugly resin is that the cool new plastics they got were completely new units, which didn't exist in 6th and 7th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russellbogentoff Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 @WoollyMammoth I'd like to see more undead races, like the old cursed company for Dogs of War. I can see them releasing humans and undead at a similar point in the timeline, with mortals battling for their souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nubgan Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 @WoollyMammoth Wasn't there a lore snippet dropped somewhere about a more mummified Undead still poking around in the backgroun somewhere. Would be funny if they knocked it out of the park with some sort of Mummy release. Like you say, the models for the most part were ugly old things and the entire range pretty much needed re-doing anyway. Maybe we will see Settra ride again on a Slaanesh style chariot again, would be fantastic if Death could have that high mobility, long range shooting thing filled out again. Would even be pretty whack if they did some human fanatics of some sort too with Egyptian god masks for infantry units (akin to Tzeentchs new range). Wish people would stop coming up with fantastic ideas. Want to buy these ideas already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorPenguin Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 If there are no death models this year - I'm OK with that - but if we could have a supplement release to bide us over - what we're really lacking is any formations; lore and spells. A book with a battalions; spells and alliance abilities would really give a boost without having to release much more. That and some repointing - playing Sylvaneth last night pointed out the ridiculousness of Mannfred costing 460 points with a 4+ save - or the Morghasts essentially being the same as Kurnoth Hunters at double the cost. Hopefully this will come with the GHB - as long as they are getting enough feedback from Death players, which they may not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Models wise I'd say it's probably Aelfs/Humans that are in greatest need of some new stuff, Death had some tasty releases in the Endtimes (which were AoS design with hindsight) but I'd don't think the Pansies and Oomies have had anything since before then. I might be wrong though kind of a lot has happened since then. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.