Bimli Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 So in the days of old the dwarf bolt thrower was something that I would never consider taking due to it being well poop. I thought it the same in aos until I started working on a competitive list for the dispossessed and a few things stuck out. 120 points, 38", 2 attacks, d3 wounds, rend -1 (special if you roll a 6 to wound it becomes rend -3 double wounds). now on paper this looks meh but you add a engineer + a hurricanum and you got the plain death. Let me explain (Ill probably be running 4 in a 2000 point game) firstly 38" means nothing will be able to hit it turn 1 as it has a threat range of 42" with a engineer you get +1 to wound so your wounding on 2+ and on a 5+ your rending on -3 and doing double damage. with the hurricanum your hitting on 2+ not to mention its still has the dispossessed trait. so 4 of these are cheaper than 3 cannons have higher range and can potentially do similar damage with higher rend. 4 of these are 60 point cheaper than 3 cannons. range with 2+ to hit and 2+ to wound with super damage potential means what ever army your playing against unless they teleport will be taking some pretty heavy damage starting turn 1. and if they do teleport just get those gryph hounds to stay close by for some serious out of turn shooting action. Now I just gotta find 4... or converting will have to take place. if 4 of these shooting something the damage out put could be something like this. 8 shots needed 2+ 7 hit needed 2+ to wounds 6 wounds and 2 should be 5+ so 4 d3 rend -1 and 2 double wound rend -3 can make for some huge damage kill some big monsters in 1 go. What do you guys think... is my math wrong? is the dwarf bolt thrower the best thing since sliced bread for artillery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jabber Tzeentch Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Nope you're right the math is good. They've certainly got potential to do a lot of damage. They still have the same issue as all other artillery though, weak crew. They can be picked off very easily, essentially 12 wounds through on the crew and that's all done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossback Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'm thinking a couple groups of Tree Revenants would be smiling gleefully as they way piped in behind your cannon crews and started dismantling your gun crews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volund Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Yeah, I think that Bolt Throwers might be a hidden gem in the compendium! Of course if you knew the enemey had tree revenants (or any teleporting melee), you would just make a circle with the warriors and then get at least two rounds of shooting between the gryph hound and then your shooting phase. (Because even if they got the double turn, they would have to survive the gryph hound shots with enough damage potential to one-shot your defence line and then charge the artillery in their second turn) I think the only thing they would really he scared of is the same thing that most dwarf lists are scared of. And that is anything that "ignores all rend." Because the most possible to-wounds you could have would be 8 so even a 4+ save could make all of them with a reasonably lucky roll (only needing 4 dice to be "above average" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 24 minutes ago, Mossback said: I'm thinking a couple groups of Tree Revenants would be smiling gleefully as they way piped in behind your cannon crews and started dismantling your gun crews. The gryph hour would make sure they dont survive the trip the combo needed gryph hounds and hurricanum and an engineer for this to work. But as the Tree Revenants pop us the hound screams loud and proud so I get a free shot at you and your teleport in. Unless there is a different wording but I'm sure it says "set up". The crew have 3 wounds a pop yes you kill them and its gg but they are sitting 38" away (42" cause I can move and shoot) meaning you wont reach them turn 1 so if I go first that 2 turns of raining death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 23 minutes ago, Volund said: Yeah, i think that Bolt Throwers might be a hidden gem in the compendium! Of course if you knew the enemey had tree revenants (or any teleporting melee), you would just make a circle with the warriors and then get at least two rounds of shooting between the gryph hound and then your shooting phase. (Because even if they got the double turn, they would have to survive the gryph hound shots with enough damage potential to one-shot your defence line and then charge the artillery in their second turn) I think they only thing they would really he scared of is the same thing that most dwarf lists are scared of. And that is anything at all that "ignores all rend." Because the most possible to-wounds you could have would be 8 so even a 4+ save could make all of them with a reasonably lucky roll (only needing 4 dice to be "above average" the good thing about rend is rune lords can buff this as they are dispossessed so the rend would not be to big a problem and if you roll 5+ to wound that's a huge -3 rend. and I know this is rare but the most possible wounds I can get is 6 per each shot due to the special ability if I roll a 6 or higher I get double damage and rend -3. A bolt thrower does d3 wounds on regular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolstedt Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 A battlemage can give +1 to wound as well by taking the spell Wildform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, tolstedt said: A battlemage can give +1 to wound as well by taking the spell Wildform. dosent a 1 always fail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ao_Death Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Bimli said: dosent a 1 always fail? Yep, but that would bring your 5+ rend -3 double damage to 4+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ao_Death said: Yep, but that would bring your 5+ rend -3 double damage to 4+ oh snap!!! talk about bolt thrower of death!! wait and the warden king can give +1 wound for his leader (attacking a certain enemy unit) ability to a unit. 3+ double damage and rend -3 this just keep getting better and better! Man if you want something dead these can do it so well!... Hello archaoen say hello to my little friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobume Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 18 minutes ago, tolstedt said: A battlemage can give +1 to wound as well by taking the spell Wildform. Wildform only adds +1 to wound in the combat phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Just now, jobume said: Wildform only adds +1 to wound in the combat phase. sigh but still warden king ability! Time for the dispossessed army of death all shooting all day long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobume Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Bimli said: sigh but still warden king ability! Time for the dispossessed army of death all shooting all day long Hehe. Yep! Still a solid find with the bolt throwers. Let us know how they work out for you. I've played with double cannon+engineer+celestial hurricanum in my Freeguild list and it was good, but not excellent. Sometimes it would dish out very good damage, but sometimes the cannons would just bounce off those 3+-heroes like nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volund Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 51 minutes ago, Bimli said: the good thing about rend is rune lords can buff this as they are dispossessed so the rend would not be to big a problem and if you roll 5+ to wound that's a huge -3 rend. and I know this is rare but the most possible wounds I can get is 6 per each shot due to the special ability if I roll a 6 or higher I get double damage and rend -3. A bolt thrower does d3 wounds on regular. Do we have evidence that buffing the war machine like this is generally accepted? Because it would be awesome, but i thought that since the actual machine wasnt "Dispossessed" you would be unable to affect the "profile" of that weapon even if it WAS a dispossessed model that fired it. In my mind, the dispossessed crew would have all of thier profiles increased, but then choose to ignore those profiles and use the, quite separate, profile of the warmachine to make attacks. Sorry, i think i also did not communicate very well. I meant that the bolt throwers might be scared of things like Mournghouls or Spirit Hosts or Bastilidons which have an ability that lets them use their normal save despite whatever rend your attack has. And when i was talking about "to wounds" i meant "the ability to cause an enemy to make a 'to save' roll". So even if you hit a Bastilidon 8 times (the most this could) with a -10 rend, it would still save those attacks on a 3+ and make the world a slightly worse place for having done so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Volund said: Do we have evidence that buffing the war machine like this is generally accepted? Because it would be awesome, but i thought that since the actual machine wasnt "Dispossessed" you would be unable to affect the "profile" of that weapon even if it WAS a dispossessed model that fired it. In my mind, the dispossessed crew would have all of thier profiles increased, but then choose to ignore those profiles and use the, quite separate, profile of the warmachine to make attacks. Sorry, i think i also did not communicate very well. I meant that the bolt throwers might be scared of things like Mournghouls or Spirit Hosts or Bastilidons which have an ability that lets them use their normal save despite whatever rend your attack has. And when i was talking about "to wounds" i meant "the ability to cause an enemy to make a 'to save' roll". So even if you hit a Bastilidon 8 times (the most this could) with a -10 rend, it would still save those attacks on a 3+ and make the world a slightly worse place for having done so. the warmachine and the crew count as one unit. under description it indicated the dwarf bolt thrower consists of the warmachine and 3 duardin crew. so ya you can use the dispossessed abilities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volund Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I think we may have to agree to disagree, because if they were truly one unit then it would not make sense for there to be 2 separate sets of keywords. And more importantly, you would be able to choose how to allocate wounds, rather than the opponent targeting one over the other. I had to double check myself because I think about 99% of the time I see you on forums you are just right, but page 4 of the standard FAQ, third to last question, on the bottom right, uses the specific words " A war machine and its crew are two separare units". Obviously if you and your opponenet both think it makes sense then there is no reason you cant use the buffs, in fact, the only reason I even bring it up is that I know you play pretty competitively and so I worry a TO might try to deny the buffs based on that one FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, Volund said: I think we may have to agree to disagree, because if they were truly one unit then it would not make sense for there to be 2 separate sets of keywords. And more importantly, you would be able to choose how to allocate wounds, rather than the opponent targeting one over the other. I had to double check myself because I think about 99% of the time I see you on forums you are just right, but page 4 of the standard FAQ, third to last question, on the bottom right, uses the specific words " A war machine and its crew are two separare units". Obviously if you and your opponenet both think it makes sense then there is no reason you cant use the buffs, in fact, the only reason I even bring it up is that I know you play pretty competitively and so I worry a TO might try to deny the buffs based on that one FAQ. Hmm I do see your point it's weird by that standing if the crew and the warmachine are seperate units then the crew can man any war machine. so lets says I have 2 cannons 1 cannons crew dies but the other are good and they are 1" within each cannon does that not mean they can control both? To be perfectly honest the FAQ is whats makes a mess of things its supposed to help not make thing worse lol. RAW under description the dwarf bolt thrower consists the war machine (the bolt thrower) and its crew (the 3 dudes) to me that means they are the same unit. The FAQ decides to say Q - with warmachines and crew, how should you allocate wounds. A - A warmachine and its crew are 2 separate units and should be targeted separately So does this mean they are a separate unit in which case they can man any warmachine they can even over lap and man 2 seperate war machines (being 1" away from 2 heck even 3 seperate WM) Or does it mean just for allocating wounds? I play its as when allocating wounds they count as separate (cause of the poopy FAQ) but the unit is counted as 1 unit for rules and control purpose or I can just man any number of warmachines or double/tripple man warmachines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volund Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Yep! I 100% agree with you (the world is back in order, yay!) It is probably, literally, the dumbest mechanic in the entirety of AoS. The only way it could start to make sense would be if the crew were "bound" to a war machine like the gryph-hound, but there are two giant issues with that particular resolution: A) it makes no sense at all thematically B) This is purely me putting words in GWs mouth, because there is no written indication anywhere that this was even the intent. All this little rabbit trail aside, i think the 4 bolt throwers will be very powerful in a tournament setting and unexpected by the opponents and while it may have some weakenessess it has a good chance to win tournament games and i hope to hear how it works out if you end up getting the models together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wilson Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Every time I look at order shooting I always fall back to comparisons to the Prosecutors I could be getting for the same points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volund Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I think that it is supposed to accomplish different things. Because with the prosecutors you can have 30ish attacks with 0 rend. That is definitely a good thing, but if you are attacking a 3+ rerollable save, then the potential for -3 rend from the bolt throwers would be a better choice every time. And honestly, if you just want volume, take 30 quarellers for 60 shots and 360 points. I think that prosecutors definitely have good aspects, but are not necessarily comprable to all other shooting options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 I agree with volund it depends on what your trying to do and the army you want to play. Though I agree those prosecutors are really good I think they play a different role than warmachine. Also dispossessed don't need no stinking prosecutors help! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budebear Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 the bolt thrower doesnt have disposessed keyword so warden king buff wouldnt affect it, only the crew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 27 minutes ago, budebear said: the bolt thrower doesnt have disposessed keyword so warden king buff wouldnt affect it, only the crew Does the bolt thrower and crew count as 1 unit or 2 separate ones? If you go with 2 separate ones then the crew from 1 war machine (3 members) can control multiple war machines. So let's say you have 4 bolt throwers 12 crew members if all but 3 die all war machines still function normally so long as 3 crew members out of the 12 are alive and within 1" of the warmachine correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone2040 Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Sorry mate, but they're two separate warscrolls that work in conjunction with each other so they won't get buffs from the Dispossessed keyword because it's the Bolt Thrower doing the attacking (The crew just enable it to attack), not the Crew themself. Whether or not multiple Crews can benefit the same warmachine seems like a bit of a grey area to me. All references to the crew reference "its" crew. This could indicate the Crew that comes bundled with the war machine, or could reference any crew. GW rules have never been super tight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCharisma Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 While the Bolt Thrower is amazing at 120 points, I'll still run a cannon over it any day. Cannon deals d6 damage with a similar range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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