Is this the return of Estalia?

[Ejecutor]

With the focus on the Summer King, the sun and this iconography we are kind of seeing with today's post about the Seneschal, do you think we could see some sort of come back of the Estalian style/ culture such us Myrmidia?

Maybe the new FEC aesthetic/ lore could be a mix of the two colindant factions, Bretonia and Estalia?

There was also a short video where the humans appearing there looked a bit like Estalians. Did you notice any other hint about Estalia?

Let me know your thoughts!

[Tonhel]

I don't know. Lorewise they can tell what they want about FeC, but visually / aesthetics wise I see no connection with Bretonnian or any other Old World culture. But it is still an extremely cool miniature and I can't wait to see the rest of the range! But they could write he is the gatekeeper of somekind of Vampire overlord and that still would look plausible when looking at the miniature.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Tonhel

[Ejecutor]

2 hours ago, Tonhel said:

I don't know. Lorewise they can tell what they want about FeC, but visually / aesthetics wise I see no connection with Bretonnian or any other Old World culture. But it is still an extremely cool miniature and I can't wait to see the rest of the range! But they could write he is the gatekeeper of somekind of Vampire overlord and that still would look plausible when looking at the miniature.

Imo the connection is innegable. The whole delusion screams Bretonnia everywhere, but there's one particular bit that imo is the key. The enless spells.

Chalices, horses, and even the Fleur-de-lis. It cannot be more Bretonnian.

[Beliman]

I think that's a hook for some lore-lovers and just a tool to build rules and sculpts. That means that they can use anything from Bretonia, or nothing at all (the bold part is more important to understand what I'm saying).

The whole concept is still there, a monarchical/feudal society lead by vampires. Take whatever you want that fits that concept and keep rolling. It's just that Bretonia, Strigois, Ghouls, bones and flesh are part of it, and pretty sure that it can be expanded with a lot of things (beasts of burden, Holy/Unholy knights, Crusades, Knights of the oval table, the white/black knight, chivalry orders, etc...).

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I think you can answer the question of how FEC and Bretonnia (or Estalia or other Old World cultures) are related from a few perspectives.

Going by the established lore, I am pretty sure it is never explicity confirmed that Bretonnian souls now inhabit FEC bodies. I am also not aware that there is anything in the books that would imply a continuation of Bretonnian culture into the Mortal Realms, like there is with Sigmar teaching the mortals of the realms his language and customs. I think actually trying to connect FEC with any Old World culture in a substantive way is not backed by the fiction.

In themes, I think, you can make a case that FEC play on what Bretonnia was. Of course that makes sense: Bretonnia was the chivalric faction of the Old World, and FEC is a subversion of chivalric tropes in the mortal realms. For now, I don't think this is reflected in the models at all, however. Maybe the endless spells, but everything else really doesn't use the same visual language as Bretonnia.

Of course, given that AoS is the successor of WHFB, it makes sense to ask "is this connected to Bretonnia?" when a knightly faction appears in the Mortal Realms. But I also think in the Warhammer community, many people have a bit of an impoverished frame of reference when it comes to knights. Remember Thunderstrike being cast as "Bretonnian Stormcast"? Or the new Freeguild-Cavaliers being compared to Bretonnians for no real good reason other than being on a horse? Bretonnia as a faction was always, in my opinion, extremely close to just being a faction from a historical medieval wargame. It is natural that anything that has any relation to knighlty symbolism will evoke them, because they are so close to being "generic knights". I think we should try to move past the kneejerk reaction of calling every Warhammer knight Bretonnian at some point.

EDIT: Because it sums up what I mean perfectly:

Edited November 7, 2023 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Tonhel]

@Neil Arthur Hotep

Well said, a million times better than I tried to explain. 😀 You nailed it!

[Ejecutor]

Well, obvs it is not Bretonnia per se, but inspired by. Anyways, don't forget about Estalia! This was all about Estalia ahahaha

[sandlemad]

The Bretonnian connection is definitely thematic rather than ‘in-universe’ so to speak but it’s definitely there, even if mostly in the form of cheeky references and pretty clear Easter eggs, like those which @Ejecutor shows. I’d also throw in the broken sword on the Arch-Regent’s belt as very similar in style to those in the post-6th ed. Bretonnian range.

That said, I’d agree with @Neil Arthur Hotep re: the background references through the delusions. They’re more general chivalric knightly touchpoints rather than anything too specifically Bretonnian… but as it’s all deliberately campy, effusive, OTT stuff, that does line up well with the deliberately campy, effusive, OTT portrayal of stereotyped medieval France that made up most of the Bretonnian background.

RE: the Estalian link, I don’t think so. Rather I think the bone ruff is more of a general indicator of noble European finery. It’s a bit like how the Royal Beastmaster has some fancy cords/tassels (I think the proper term is aiguillettes) on his chest but fashioned from entrails. Could be a sign of GW trying to widen the breadth of references beyond medieval knights and into a bigger pool of aristocratic cultures, though again they’re pretty clearly just there to be riffed on.

Although if we did have a character called, like, the Infante des Menudencias or something, I’d be here for it!

Edited November 7, 2023 by sandlemad

[JerekKruger]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:52 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Or the new Freeguild-Cavaliers being compared to Bretonnians for no real good reason other than being on a horse?

Wait, really? Their armour is much more similar to later medieval/early modern full plate and therefore is closer to Empire knights than the high medieval aesthetic of Bretonnians. The only thing they gave in common with Bretonnians (other than riding horses) is unique individual heraldry, but even that would have been common among knights of the late medieval era who weren't part of a knightly order (Empire knights are all down as being part of knightly orders rather than being upper class cavalrymen).

As for Estalia: I'm not seeing anything, and I doubt GW have much desire to introduce Estalian influence to AoS. Estalia was (basically) never a tabletop faction, and outside of maybe some WFRP supplements their lore was basically "renaissance Italy with Skaven". AoS is much more fantastical than WFB was, so adding in an Estalian theme would seem... off. The odd call back maybe, not e other than that I don't think they'll run with it.

Edited November 12, 2023 by JerekKruger

[michu]

Estalia was Spain. Tilea was Italy.

[JerekKruger]

23 hours ago, michu said:

Estalia was Spain. Tilea was Italy.

Oh good point, although I think the fact I made that mistake says a lot about how much presence they had in the lore 😄