only a personal wishlist of changes for next edition

[Ragest]

- No double turns

- Heroes inside units or lone operatives (like 40k)

- No more ways to score VPs inside faction books

-Hero phase takes ages in some armies, no more heroic abilities, or just the dispelling one or gaining one cp. No more hero phase mechanics in ghb.

- Return rerolls, now most of warscrolls are the same 3+/3+ and 3+ save. We have lost tons of granularity.

- Take off melee range, use ranks.

- Mw just in magic, give different effects to improve damage such auto wound or improving rend, 

- No more magical effects on scenery, just cover, obscuring and difficult terrain. 

- Change all out attack and defense to second edition ones, rr 1s to hit or to save.

[Doko]

9 hours ago, Chikout said:

It's weird that everyone keeps talking about the double turn as if it is a mechanic. The mechanic is the priority roll which gives an option for a player to go first or second in the battleround. The positive of this is that it creates a wide range of different possibilities which in turn lead to a wide variety of tactical desisions a player has to make. It's a mechanic that I think adds a lot to the game and also makes it stand out from other game systems. 

The problem is not that it causes games to be decided by chance but rather that it has a steep learning curve. The top players in the world win 80-90 percent of their games but they certainly don't win that many priority rolls. 

The second problem is that it potentially introduces long periods of downtime. That's why I suggested making the movement phase alternating activation. 

I'm sure a smarter person than me could create a better hybrid of the priority roll and alternating activations to keep the positives of the mechanic while mitigating the negatives. 

double turn dont have nothing positive,only umbalance the game,makes it boring have to way two enemy turns doing nothing etc.

we have the ultimate best balanced game of history:the chess,someone imagine chess with turns for priority? its stupid and makes games won by luck and not skill.

is obvious that you can reduce the effect of double turn if you know play,but even then its only reduce the effect and continue being a handicap of only luck.

was a bad idea at the launch as many others stupids ideas or aos 0,0 as no points etc

but gw cant  or dont want delete it even if it is hated by almost every player and for every non player(its the main reason that many 40k players dont jump to aos) only because they want have one huge mechanic that makes aos and 40k diferent

[Doko]

3 hours ago, Gitzdee said:

Double turn is just no fun for casual gamers and feels bad to new players to the point that they never want to play again. At least that is my experience.

that is the experience of everyone,i have friends running gw store or non ofitial stores and they told the that this double turn is the main factor that every new player use as reason to not play to aos.

also every 40k group,you can ask the main reason to not play to aos and the 90% of players gonna answer you that is for double turn.

in competitive is the same,everyone hate it,competitive players love win games for skill and can claim that you won a tournament because you were the skillest player and not the luckiest. is true that you can reduce the effect but never negate it,and even if you play around reduce the effect then you are doing you list and play less good in normal situations because you must play very defensive around of minimice looses with double turn.

is a bad mechanic that 90% players hate,and gw know it,they have done many nerfs to double turn because they know it.

the problem is that they dont want delete it only to keep it aos diferent to 40k,but this is being detrimental for aos loosing many players and potentials new players

[RyantheFett]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

On the one hand I get it, on the other its mostly because players don't play around the possibility or think of it at all. From their perspective they're playing a game and the double turn just "falls out of the sky" and hands them a loss. HeyWoah's video on this is really good.
Sometimes, if you're behind you need to gamble on that 50% to turn the game around, but if you're just blindly throwing yourself into a position where a dice roll will lose you the game thats a skill issue. If it looks like its going to rain, and you go for a run you might get rained on.
I'm not trying to be dismissive here, but we should really do a better job of explaining it to new players. For tons of outsiders double turns fall from the sky, and the nuance of controlling drops, or even stopping to consider that if you go second you can't get doubled, is lost.

Jokes on you I am a trash player and will always gamble on that roll lol. Almost all the games I play make it to turn 3 and then we roll to see who wins the game. No point even playing at that point!

I just don't really see the pros of keeping that rule, but it does seem to be something that GW will die on the hill for.

I got two casual players in our group who I taught 40k 10ed to, and I doubt they would ever care enough about list building and drops to successfully counter the double turn. They just want to put unpainted models on the table and roll dice.

Personally my bigger gripe is the MW spam and just how deadly everything the game is now. Figure 4th will tone that down enough that maybe something could survive the double turn beat down lol.

Double turns seem more like a huge roadblock for new players to enter the game?

Edited August 24, 2023 by RyantheFett

[Beliman]

13 minutes ago, Doko said:

in competitive is the same,everyone hate it,competitive players love win games for skill and can claim that you won a tournament because you were the skillest player and not the luckiest.

I'm not a fan of the double turn, but this is wrong. I usually see the same people at the top, so, it's not just about luck.

The main issue about the double turn is that you need a lot of games in your belt to know how to play with. When you are losing and get a double turn, that's your "comeback". But when an enemy double turn'd you, that's not enjoyable. That's the reality for most people that play one or two games a month.

Not sure if it's worth, top people are going to still win without it, casual people will have one less result to worry about.

 

[Doko]

3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

usually see the same people at the top, so, it's not just about luck.

that isnt true.

yes you see same people at the top of the same region,because that player is more skilled so they win more even with the luck of double turn.

but if we join the top players of each region that have same skill level then the games gonna be games by the luck of double turn only.

in short: if a player is more skilled than others with double turn have 70/80 % win rate,but if we remove the luck of double turn he would have 95/100 win rate

[Ganigumo]

2 minutes ago, Doko said:

that is the experience of everyone,i have friends running gw store or non ofitial stores and they told the that this double turn is the main factor that every new player use as reason to not play to aos.

also every 40k group,you can ask the main reason to not play to aos and the 90% of players gonna answer you that is for double turn.

in competitive is the same,everyone hate it,competitive players love win games for skill and can claim that you won a tournament because you were the skillest player and not the luckiest. is true that you can reduce the effect but never negate it,and even if you play around reduce the effect then you are doing you list and play less good in normal situations because you must play very defensive around of minimice looses with double turn.

is a bad mechanic that 90% players hate,and gw know it,they have done many nerfs to double turn because they know it.

the problem is that they dont want delete it only to keep it aos diferent to 40k,but this is being detrimental for aos loosing many players and potentials new players

Maybe casual players and 40k players don't like it. But a ton of aos players actually do like it, myself included.

Also if it actually did decide games the general winrates would be much closer to 50%, as winning or losing the game would be a coin flip. Its statistically evident that it isn't the deciding factor in every game, or even most games. Thats even ignoring the fact that some of the best players in the world can still go 5-0 piloting ham sandwiches. Anecdotally I can't remember the last time I won or lost because of a double, usually what happens is I'm already winning or losing pretty badly and the double turn seals it. If you look at the TSN player stats, some players have scores of 30 wins, 0 losses over the last ghb, over 6 GTs. If that isn't a sign that player skill is THE deciding factor I'm not sure what is.

The priority roll exists in large part to negate the first turn advantage, an issue that is prevalent in most turn based games. They provide a bunch of incentives for going second as well, so if anything they've buffed going second, instead of nerfing the double turn, to the point where many players will pass on a double turn to keep the benefits.
40k tends to favor the player going first 60-40, and even Chess favors white somewhere between 52-56%. 

A lot of the issues with the priority roll really come down to experience and how you interact with it. You can't ignore it, it warps the entire game around it, and that's the point. You need to play around it or you're going to have a bad time. You can't just ignore a major mechanic in the game and expect everything to work out fine.

 

3 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

Jokes on you I am a trash player and will always gamble on that roll lol. Almost all the games I play make it to turn 3 and then we roll to see who wins the game. No point even playing at that point!

I just don't really see the pros of keeping that rule, but it does seem to be something that GW will die on the hill for??? I got two casual players in our group who I taught 40k 10ed to, and I doubt they would ever care enough about list building and drops to successfully counter the double turn. They just want to put unpainted models on the table and roll dice.

Personally my bigger gripe is the MW spam and just how deadly everything the game is now. Figure 4th will tone that down enough that maybe something could survive the double turn beat down lol.

priority rolls shift the game away from a t1 advantage in a big way and create way more possible game permutations (32 vs 2). Its also coupled with a way to control it, which is important, since just having one of those things would be disastrous. Imagine 40k if you had a way to always go first (other than toilet dice).

Its definitely a hard hit for casuals who don't think about the rule though, but more important than just the listbuilding part is how you think about it. Just stopping and thinking about holding some of your force back, and not walking into a slaughter is important. 

I highly recommend heywoahs video on this.

 

 

1 minute ago, Doko said:

that isnt true.

yes you see same people at the top of the same region,because that player is more skilled so they win more even with the luck of double turn.

but if we join the top players of each region that have same skill level then the games gonna be games by the luck of double turn only.

in short: if a player is more skilled than others with double turn have 70/80 % win rate,but if we remove the luck of double turn he would have 95/100 win rate

If two people of the same skill level, play at the same skill level, with similarly strong armies, literally the only other possible deciding factor is luck, outside of luck it would just end up as a draw. Also as I mentioned above some players actually do have winrates of 100% last season, and 12 players with winrates of 90% or above mostly over 6 GTs. Also because of the way tournament do pairings, these top players will end up playing against each other in the final rounds of a tournament.

[Beliman]

On 8/24/2023 at 9:49 PM, Doko said:

but if we join the top players of each region that have same skill level then the games gonna be games by the luck of double turn only.

You know that I'm right and AoS TSN team seems to agree. Rob has a video explaining that to Miniac too.

That doesn't mean a lot to me, because I don't have the skill or time to try to master the game. And to be honest, I prefer to lose a bit of skill if we can have a bit more flavour.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Beliman

[Doko]

6 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

If two people of the same skill level, play at the same skill level, with similarly strong armies, literally the only other possible deciding factor is luck, outside of luck it would just end up as a draw. Also as I mentioned above some players actually do have winrates of 100% last season, and 12 players with winrates of 90% or above mostly over 6 GTs. Also because of the way tournament do pairings, these top players will end up playing against each other in the final rounds of a tournament

yep is as you said.

the problem is that we dont have world championships as sports.

so yes maybe in one region we have players with 90% win rate or even 100% but that is because they are more skilled than rivals so the double turn dont matter because he is so much better than the rival.

if we could do tournaments with only the best players around the world then for sure the win rates would be around 50% and only the luck of double turn decide who wins.

double turn is a problem for competitive players that we spend many hours thinking lists,combos,mathammer etc and we have a huge knowledge about every army to maximice our chance of win games,and inside of this equation we only dont can do nothing with double turn and is a huge factor to decide victor and is 100% only luck

casual players usually dont mind double turn,they dont care win or losse and so dont care the double turn for a competitive aspect,but even these players hate it due to must see two turns of rival while they only wait and dont play

[Doko]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

You know that I'm right and AoS TSN team seems to agree. Rob has a video explaining that to Miniac too.

That doesn't mean a lot to me, because I don't have the skill or time to try to learn from them. And to be honesest, I prefer to lose a bit of skill if we can have a bit more flavour.

not you arent rigth and i know. and plz dont use tsn and even worse to rob as examples of competitive players.

this rob and miniac are content creators and must release content every day even if it is fake only to get views and money.

rob is worse even,he almost allways have 0 idea about numbers,and only make up the data to generate controversity and get more coments that bring more views and money.

double turn is a universal and maths facts that is luck,you cant do nothing to change who get double turn, and who get double turn get a advantage,is a fact also,this advantage is lesser for competitive players but is a advantage 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Doko

[Beliman]

@Doko agree to disagree.

Btw, TSN and Rob are not the same team, Rob colaborates but he is a content creator first.TSN only compiles all data in one site.

And no, I didn't use Rob as a competitive player, I used him as someone that explained why it's not just luck when a competitive player wins. That's because he talks and has a bunch of interviews with the top players and one of the usual points to talk about is how to play with and against double turn.

On 8/24/2023 at 10:23 PM, Doko said:

who get double turn get a advantage,is a fact also,this advantage is lesser for competitive players but is a advantage 

That's my point too.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Beliman

[Marcvs]

21 minutes ago, Doko said:

make up the data

Speaking of made up stuff, any proof of this? Because I input tournament data from my region for them, see the excel spreadsheet for other tournaments etc.

Of course opinions and preferences are personal and you can disagree with methodologies or whatever, but that's a demonstrably false accusation. Maybe you should reformulate?

[Doko]

4 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Speaking of made up stuff, any proof of this? Because I input tournament data from my region for them, see the excel spreadsheet for other tournaments etc.

Of course opinions and preferences are personal and you can disagree with methodologies or whatever, but that's a demonstrably false accusation. Maybe you should reformulate?

ok i can be more especific.

the tsn tables are fine(i dont like because they use tournaments of even only 8 players when for me a tournament must have 20+ players to be big enougth to matter in data and also the data is fake in some situations,i know some friends that only for fun makeup a tabletop simulator tournament and create fake names and results and upload it to their web only to get higher or low the win rate of armys that he want)

the problem and who make up the data is their youtuve chanel and rob, want examples? 

-last city of sigmar tierlist,this dude rob who did the tierlist didnt read even the warscrolls of elfs(is a fact that he even said in the video) or put some unit as good as the elf chariot of shooting because  the ark fleetmaster gives them +1 shooting,when the reality is that the fleetmaster give +1 to melle atacks of corsairs and not shooting of charriots. so this dude make up the tier list without even read the full book and only doing random guess of where is each model.

-video about how broken are the dragons,or sharks,or imput random bad unit here,then the facts are that ONE dude have done a 3/2 or 4/1 in one lesser tournament with these units.

-i could write many more examples of how almost every one of their youtuve videos are make up and false only to get views.

 

 

[Leshoyadut]

I will also say that I fit into what I think most people would consider a "casual" player: I get maybe one or two games in a month, sometimes going a month or two without a game, and watch a game on YouTube here and there (mostly Season of War when they play an army I'm interested in). I've never played in a tournament, but think it'd be neat someday, maybe. Learning the implications of the double turn definitely took a little mental effort on my end, but in the end it wasn't that hard and I enjoy the game a lot as a result of meeting it on its terms rather than my expectations going in.

I've also introduced a couple people to the game, and neither of them ended up hating the double turn even when I did it to them. I just made sure to warn them that it was a possibility before we started, because it is a major part of the game, so it was just part of my general explanation of how the game worked.

[Marcvs]

Just now, Doko said:

ok i can be more especific.

the tsn tables are fine(i dont like because they use tournaments of even only 8 players when for me a tournament must have 20+ players to be big enougth to matter in data and also the data is fake in some situations,i know some friends that only for fun makeup a tabletop simulator tournament and create fake names and results and upload it to their web only to get higher or low the win rate of armys that he want)

the problem and who make up the data is their youtuve chanel and rob, want examples? 

-last city of sigmar tierlist,this dude rob who did the tierlist didnt read even the warscrolls of elfs(is a fact that he even said in the video) or put some unit as good as the elf chariot of shooting because  the ark fleetmaster gives them +1 shooting,when the reality is that the fleetmaster give +1 to melle atacks of corsairs and not shooting of charriots. so this dude make up the tier list without even read the full book and only doing random guess of where is each model.

-video about how broken are the dragons,or sharks,or imput random bad unit here,then the facts are that ONE dude have done a 3/2 or 4/1 in one lesser tournament with these units.

-i could write many more examples of how almost every one of their youtuve videos are make up and false only to get views.

 

 

Ok this exchange is pointless. You proved that you don't even know how the tsn data is collected. Fyi, it's not automatically scraped from websites  but filled by hand by volunteers, so your "friends" making up data would have nowhere to upload it. So, you don't know what you're talking about and you should refrain from throwing accusations of 'making up the data".

 

The whole second part is not about the data. For someone using a degree as credentials, you should be able to distinguish between opinions (tier lists, something being broken) and the statement "the data is made up".

But really, no point in continuing this discussion.

 

[Doko]

5 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Ok this exchange is pointless. You proved that you don't even know how the tsn data is collected. Fyi, it's not automatically scraped from websites  but filled by hand by volunteers, so your "friends" making up data would have nowhere to upload it. So, you don't know what you're talking about and you should refrain from throwing accusations of 'making up the data".

 

The whole second part is not about the data. For someone using a degree as credentials, you should be able to distinguish between opinions (tier lists, something being broken) and the statement "the data is made up".

But really, no point in continuing this discussion.

 

seems you are who dont have any idea omg.

even rigth now i could  create a random name for a tabletop simulator tournament,fill the data and get random names of people and random lists,then i make the results as i want(as winner to fyreslayers 5/0 if i want get more win rate for fyreslayers and some 0/5 for stormcast if i want get his winnrate lower) and upload this tournament to best coast pairings,then others people gonna get the data of this web and upload it to tsn.

i am not saying that is tsn fault because this can be done to every other data tournament web,but for sure i can tell you that many of those tournaments in the tsn data are fakes(but i am not saying that they make up those tournaments)

oh also create a tierlist without read even the scrolls isnt make up data?

[CDM]

29 minutes ago, Doko said:

seems you are who dont have any idea omg.

even rigth now i could  create a random name for a tabletop simulator tournament,fill the data and get random names of people and random lists,then i make the results as i want(as winner to fyreslayers 5/0 if i want get more win rate for fyreslayers and some 0/5 for stormcast if i want get his winnrate lower) and upload this tournament to best coast pairings,then others people gonna get the data of this web and upload it to tsn.

i am not saying that is tsn fault because this can be done to every other data tournament web,but for sure i can tell you that many of those tournaments in the tsn data are fakes(but i am not saying that they make up those tournaments)

oh also create a tierlist without read even the scrolls isnt make up data?

Is it you? Are you providing fake data to these people in order to prove a point? Because in reality no one does that , no one thinks about that other than you it seems.  Why would they?

No one has got an agenda to inflate tournament results or skew data, you're barking up some crazy tree it seems. 

You made a statement, people disagree, you throw out your some sort of data economist or some bs, lie to prove asenine points that no one cares about. Do you not get bored of the sound of your own voice? Does anyone ever have fun playing with you? Seek help dude, take some solace in your friends and family and find a hobby that you might actually enjoy because you don't seem to get much enjoyment from this. Just a bit of friendly advice.

For the record I wouldmt be commenting like this to you but I'm sick of your rudeness. Party pooper every time you come on these boards and routinely insult the intelligence of people on here. Not cool

 

[Doko]

36 minutes ago, CDM said:

For the record I wouldmt be commenting like this to you but I'm sick of your rudeness. Party pooper every time you come on these boards and routinely insult the intelligence of people on here. Not cool

for the record is the second time in last days that you do a post naming me and doing a personal attack.

i dont want start a figth and only gonna report you for rude and personal attack and put you on ignore.

oh if you feel that i insult your inteligence for tell you that 1+1 is 2 and not 3 as you think the problem isnt me.......

also if you are sick about me then the best option is add me to ignore as i have done with you and not coming to a topic that it was created by me when you dont want read me lol

Edited August 24, 2023 by Doko

[CDM]

5 minutes ago, Doko said:

for the record is the second time in last days that you do a post naming me and doing a personal attack.

i dont want start a figth and only gonna report you for rude and personal attack and put you on ignore.

oh if you feel that i insult your inteligence for tell you that 1+1 is 2 and not 3 as you think the problem isnt me.......

I'm reacting to your negativity there's a difference. You're rude to people daily on here. I'm calling you out on it. Not a personal attack

[Marcvs]

7 hours ago, Doko said:

even rigth now i could  create a random name for a tabletop simulator tournament,fill the data and get random names of people and random lists,then i make the results as i want

For the rest of the users: Doko is proving once again that he doesn't know what he's talking about (or that he's lying).

The tsn data do not include tournaments on tabletop simulator.

[Bosskelot]

Two main ones:

- Get thee gone double turn. Can lead to one player having to sit through 2 turns of doing nothing (which for a game that already has a lot of downtime really isn't good) and it also leads to highly restrictive and boring listbuilding because if you do want to "play around" the "priority roll" then it massively constrains how your army is built. The fact that GW has had to bolt on so many band-aid fixes to this one mechanic to try and make it work should tell you that it doesn't work.

- Any future GHB/mission packs should just be... missions, and maybe "secondaries" or whatever they might be. All this extra realm stuff with new battalions, enhancements and command abilities is just an extra layer of annoyance and complexity that the game doesn't benefit from. And I say this as someone who is no enemy of complexity.

[Mikosan]

I keep seeing people saying that the double forces a player to sit through two turns of doing nothing, and can't help but honestly wonder if that isn't part of the reason the double is such a problem in these experiences?  In the hero phase you have heroic actions, unbinding and dispelling, moving endless spells in the movement phase you have redeploy, then there is all out defense and all out attack, alternating combat activations, unleash hell, monstrous rampages, inspiring presence, battle shock, rally not to mention the armies that have ways to charge out of turn, shoot(like the gryph hounds warning cry) strike first etc....   There always seems to me to be plenty to think about, decide on, and roll for in my experiences.   The days of literally doing nothing but rolling armour saves and removing models was actually how it was in Fantasy Battles and the IGOUGO system, which is weird because so many folks want to bring elements of that game into AoS, which I would prefer not.  I'm glad the Old World is coming back for those folks though.  

[Marcvs]

37 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

I keep seeing people saying that the double forces a player to sit through two turns of doing nothing, and can't help but honestly wonder if that isn't part of the reason the double is such a problem in these experiences?  In the hero phase you have heroic actions, unbinding and dispelling, moving endless spells in the movement phase you have redeploy, then there is all out defense and all out attack, alternating combat activations, unleash hell, monstrous rampages, inspiring presence, battle shock, rally not to mention the armies that have ways to charge out of turn, shoot(like the gryph hounds warning cry) strike first etc....   There always seems to me to be plenty to think about, decide on, and roll for in my experiences.   The days of literally doing nothing but rolling armour saves and removing models was actually how it was in Fantasy Battles and the IGOUGO system, which is weird because so many folks want to bring elements of that game into AoS, which I would prefer not.  I'm glad the Old World is coming back for those folks though.  

My personal feeling about it is that yes there's a couple of things I do in the opponent's turn, but they are either almost automatic (I did mention having to shake off the letargy to utter "all out defense" in my comment, or the 90% of turn where you use heroic leadership) or just a dice roll which the opponent could do him/herself (for instance unbinding if I have more unbind than spells), akin to armour saves really.

Redeploy is an interesting one, because while I liked the idea at first, I found it makes the movement phase much slower as me and my opponent must stop after every movement eligible for a redeploy and ask "do you want to redeploy?". All that for a super swingy dice roll (1 does nothing, 6 can completely destroy the enemy plan).

All in all, during an opponent turn I am not engaged in anything active more than a couple of minutes. Sure. It could be worse, it could be zero no pushback on that! (But there are games I enjoy where that is true and that's still ok because turns take 20min not 40+)

[Mikosan]

I guess my point is that there are still decisions to make in the opponents turn that tend to keep me engaged is all.  I don't think its on your opponent to ask after every move if you want to redeploy, I can't ever remember someone asking me that anyway.  Like, I'll let you know when I want to redeploy bro lol.

I won't get hung up on this from here on out, always interested in other takes and completely understand that my opinion is just one nerds opinion.  

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Mikosan said:

I guess my point is that there are still decisions to make in the opponents turn that tend to keep me engaged is all.

I like reactions or stuff that you can do on your opponents turn, but it's just that it doesn't have the same level of gameplay as a normal turn. 

And if you are double-turn'ed, you are already making two full reaction-turns in a row. Imo, that's not atractive to play