AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Lord Krungharr]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It's all good. The ruling is slightly unintuitive. But it does mean that healing 3d3 wounds on a Steam Tank is, in fact, legal.

The timing restriction is important, though: Healing at the end of the hero phase means overpressuring the boiler is still risky.

Gotta say, I'm considering getting at least 1 more Command Corps.  18 wound unit that does a variety of useful things and can actually somewhat fight!

[Satyrical Sophist]

16 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Gotta say, I'm considering getting at least 1 more Command Corps.  18 wound unit that does a variety of useful things and can actually somewhat fight!

I would wait a little bit, with an expected balance slate so soon. The command corps are probably too cheap with what they do. I think ideally points overall come down for CoS, but Corps feel a bit too good in comparison to some other options. 
 

Speaking of the balance data slate, what are people hoping for? It feels like we could do with something, but it might not need too big a change for it to become problematic. I kind of wanted Iron Drakes to get the benefit from march and count as remain stationary, but that might make them too efficient too easily. 

[Doko]

59 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I would wait a little bit, with an expected balance slate so soon. The command corps are probably too cheap with what they do. I think ideally points overall come down for CoS, but Corps feel a bit too good in comparison to some other options. 
 

Speaking of the balance data slate, what are people hoping for? It feels like we could do with something, but it might not need too big a change for it to become problematic. I kind of wanted Iron Drakes to get the benefit from march and count as remain stationary, but that might make them too efficient too easily. 

yes,i have sent multiples email to aos rules team to balance irondrakes because rigth now they are useless.

i sent them many options and one is as you said add them to the order of move and dont count as moved.

oh and they wont be too efficient because they even with that buff they are 160 points for 8'8 rend1 damage at 16" when reavers for same 160 points do same damage but at 24" and slanes archers also same damage and point but at 30" 

we have had city for some months allready and we havent won any tournament so far,so we need buffs and not nerfs.

but im sure that as allways fusilers,zelestra and comand corps gonna be nerfed because many persons are crying about that build even if it havent won any tournament.

pretty sure that they gonna faq comand corps to not can use the revive d3 models on same unit and cant use the cancel cp of multiple comand corps on same cp.

also more increases to fusilers points and zenestra.

while ignoring how bad are dwarfs and monsters

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

yes,i have sent multiples email to aos rules team to balance irondrakes because rigth now they are useless.

i sent them many options and one is as you said add them to the order of move and dont count as moved.

oh and they wont be too efficient because they even with that buff they are 160 points for 8'8 rend1 damage at 16" when reavers for same 160 points do same damage but at 24" and slanes archers also same damage and point but at 30" 

we have had city for some months allready and we havent won any tournament so far,so we need buffs and not nerfs.

but im sure that as allways fusilers,zelestra and comand corps gonna be nerfed because many persons are crying about that build even if it havent won any tournament.

pretty sure that they gonna faq comand corps to not can use the revive d3 models on same unit and cant use the cancel cp of multiple comand corps on same cp.

also more increases to fusilers points and zenestra.

while ignoring how bad are dwarfs and monsters

I’m pretty sure the AoS rules team aren’t going to take your feedback on that, despite your passion. 
 

Cities have been out in full for about 11 weeks, which included Christmas and stuff, and are an army that isn’t the fastest to paint. I’m not surprised that they aren’t winning a bunch of tournaments, though I have seen a number of 4-1s. I’d honestly be a bit worried if they had won a bunch. I do agree that I have they were relatively conservatively pointed, and feel they could use a helping hand, but I think you have an inaccurate view of how much help they need.

On the iron drakes, I’ve seen you post the 8’8 rend 1 damage thing on multiple forums and still have no idea what you mean by that. It also ignores that the grudgehammer is rend 2.

The iron drakes damage output is already competitive with most stuff in the game. I agree that the no movement thing is a major downside, but you let the march order benefit them then they end up being move 7, high damage shooting with a pretty good armour save. I really like iron drakes, but I think you might need to increase points if you gave them that. Personally it might be a bit too specific, but allowing Iron  Drakes to choose between counting as stationary for the order OR getting 3” movement might be enough? They’d still be slow, but able to move somewhat.

You already can’t try to use multiple whisperblades on the same command, that’s not a rule change it’s just the rule.

I think in terms of rules changes I wouldn’t mind a change to Warforger spell, making it either target or maybe even only effect melee. If you made the spell melee only I think it would open up a potential big points drop to fusiliers.

Otherwise I think general minor points drops would be nice, potentially bigger ones to our monsters. 

A big overall concern is shooting getting too good, we don’t want leaf blower lists. It’s not fun, it’s not good for balance and it gets you nerfed hard.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

The iron drakes damage output is already competitive with most stuff in the game. I agree that the no movement thing is a major downside, but you let the march order benefit them then they end up being move 7, high damage shooting with a pretty good armour save. I really like iron drakes, but I think you might need to increase points if you gave them that. Personally it might be a bit too specific, but allowing Iron  Drakes to choose between counting as stationary for the order OR getting 3” movement might be enough? They’d still be slow, but able to move somewhat.

In my opinion, letting Irondrakes actually have a role even if points need to go up would be an improvement. I think even with their good shooting profile and defenses, they are balanced vs Fusiliers by their shorter range and not getting to counter-fire or suppressive fire.

[Rachmani]

13 hours ago, Doko said:

yes,i have sent multiples email to aos rules team to balance irondrakes because rigth now they are useless.

i sent them many options and one is as you said add them to the order of move and dont count as moved.

I'm not sure if that's the right strategy to achieve anything, though.

[Doko]

17 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I’m pretty sure the AoS rules team aren’t going to take your feedback on that, despite your passion. 
 

Cities have been out in full for about 11 weeks, which included Christmas and stuff, and are an army that isn’t the fastest to paint. I’m not surprised that they aren’t winning a bunch of tournaments, though I have seen a number of 4-1s. I’d honestly be a bit worried if they had won a bunch. I do agree that I have they were relatively conservatively pointed, and feel they could use a helping hand, but I think you have an inaccurate view of how much help they need.

On the iron drakes, I’ve seen you post the 8’8 rend 1 damage thing on multiple forums and still have no idea what you mean by that. It also ignores that the grudgehammer is rend 2.

The iron drakes damage output is already competitive with most stuff in the game. I agree that the no movement thing is a major downside, but you let the march order benefit them then they end up being move 7, high damage shooting with a pretty good armour save. I really like iron drakes, but I think you might need to increase points if you gave them that. Personally it might be a bit too specific, but allowing Iron  Drakes to choose between counting as stationary for the order OR getting 3” movement might be enough? They’d still be slow, but able to move somewhat.

You already can’t try to use multiple whisperblades on the same command, that’s not a rule change it’s just the rule.

I think in terms of rules changes I wouldn’t mind a change to Warforger spell, making it either target or maybe even only effect melee. If you made the spell melee only I think it would open up a potential big points drop to fusiliers.

Otherwise I think general minor points drops would be nice, potentially bigger ones to our monsters. 

A big overall concern is shooting getting too good, we don’t want leaf blower lists. It’s not fun, it’s not good for balance and it gets you nerfed hard.

the 8'8 number is the damage median that irondrakes make

its a unit with 10 models doing 20 shoots at 3 to hit and 3 to wound,if you calculate the 66% of 20 and then the 66% again,then you get that irondrakes damage is 8'8

and is easy to see  he irondrakes are bad rigth now if we see entire data with treathrange that is the range of the weapon+move of the model,so how far really he can shoot.

 

only to compare i gonna add the two best shooting units of the game(reavers and blisbarbs)

reavers 160(or 150i dont remember) for 8'8 damage rend 1 with at 24" or 10 damage at 9"

blisbarbs archers 170 for 8'8 rend 1 damage  at 30" 

 

irondrakes 160 for 4'4 rend 1 damage at 19" or  8'8  rend 1 at 15"

 

so i think is easy to see that these 3 units cost the same(10 points more or less) but irondrakes have same damage with HALF treathrange or HALF damage with betwen 5 and 11" less range.

how is that balanced? 

if they give us the order to can move and ignore this useless penalty then irondrakes MUST spend one order of one hero to have same damage,similar treathrange and similar cost that these 2 units.

even with this change irodrakes would be worse than these two units......

also is true that irondrakes have 1 better save than these two units, but in case of blisbarb archers is the same tankiness,because more or less +1 save if 16% less damage and blisbarbs have 11 wounds that is a 10% more than dwarfs,so both units have same tankiness per point.

also note as irondrakes have ABSOLUTELY 0 buffs in this new book to their damage or rend while per example blisbarbs have multiples buffs availables.

in short irondrakes are useless and umplayables rigth now,and even with this change they would be worse than other books similar units,but could be playables

[Doko]

6 hours ago, Rachmani said:

I'm not sure if that's the right strategy to achieve anything, though.

im open to other options to send feedback to gw.

im not joking,i usually send feedback to the faq aos team because it is where they tell us to send it in their facebook when someone send one feedback.

but if we have any better channel i would be happy to know

[Satyrical Sophist]

2 hours ago, Doko said:

the 8'8 number is the damage median that irondrakes make

its a unit with 10 models doing 20 shoots at 3 to hit and 3 to wound,if you calculate the 66% of 20 and then the 66% again,then you get that irondrakes damage is 8'8

and is easy to see  he irondrakes are bad rigth now if we see entire data with treathrange that is the range of the weapon+move of the model,so how far really he can shoot.

 

only to compare i gonna add the two best shooting units of the game(reavers and blisbarbs)

reavers 160(or 150i dont remember) for 8'8 damage rend 1 with at 24" or 10 damage at 9"

blisbarbs archers 170 for 8'8 rend 1 damage  at 30" 

 

irondrakes 160 for 4'4 rend 1 damage at 19" or  8'8  rend 1 at 15"

 

so i think is easy to see that these 3 units cost the same(10 points more or less) but irondrakes have same damage with HALF treathrange or HALF damage with betwen 5 and 11" less range.

how is that balanced? 

if they give us the order to can move and ignore this useless penalty then irondrakes MUST spend one order of one hero to have same damage,similar treathrange and similar cost that these 2 units.

even with this change irodrakes would be worse than these two units......

also is true that irondrakes have 1 better save than these two units, but in case of blisbarb archers is the same tankiness,because more or less +1 save if 16% less damage and blisbarbs have 11 wounds that is a 10% more than dwarfs,so both units have same tankiness per point.

also note as irondrakes have ABSOLUTELY 0 buffs in this new book to their damage or rend while per example blisbarbs have multiples buffs availables.

in short irondrakes are useless and umplayables rigth now,and even with this change they would be worse than other books similar units,but could be playables

Is there a reason you use apostrophes for decimal places by the way? I've of commas being used in spanish, but I keep thinking you mean feet and inches.

On an extremely petty note, by that standard it should be 8.9, since its 8.8 recurring. On a less petty note, that damage number is wrong unless you are choosing not to take the champion weapon. Under that, you get 9.8 damage at at least AP 1, ( Its 8 at rend 1 and 1.8 at rend 2), so 10% higher damage . Not moving its obviously half that. 

Blissbarbs have a 6+ save by the way, that is a LOT more fragile. 

 

I do think that Dwarfs need some help, I just think its way less than one might expect. Hammerer damage is already kind of nutty (Its actually pretty much the highest in the book, the only things rivalling it are Engage the Foe Cavaliers and Engage the Foe Relic Griffons, and those have less damage at the high rend numbers). Its weirdly easy to get rend -4 hammerers (counter charge and runelord do it). 

Cities as a whole has a 49% win rate by Woehammer's combined winrates, same for its RTT/Casual, and 50% for its GT winrate. We kind of look like we are doing OK. 

 

 

Honest Wargamer has a lot of cities good results this week by the way. Reasonably varied, some aelf focused, some more human focused. Lot of Griffons and even a Black dragon showing up. Duarden didn't make any appearances that I saw

[Doko]

hnn i dont know what u mean with comas and apostrofes,but is true i dont know because i use ' and not ,

i said 8,8 ignoring the thorpedo why usually everyone ignore captain when calculate the damage of a unit because is easier,per example if we ignore captain we can say 10 models make 8,8. then 20 models double and etc but if we count captain then the damage of the captain reduce with more models(or the % of increase in damage of the captain to the unit), so usually everyone ignore captains when calculate damage of units.

oh is true blisbarbs have only save6 but they have easily ward5 so it is 11 wounds 6+ 5++ that is so much better than 10 w save4.

and yes i have said maaaany times that hammerers are great,the best unit of the book and i allways play 40 in every game(two units of 20) and they allways are my mvp. but i dont know because nobody use them.

by the way i never said citys are in bad spot,they are balanced in external balance, but monsters,copters,irondrakes and ironbreakers need buffs

[Rachmani]

3 hours ago, Doko said:

im open to other options to send feedback to gw.

im not joking,i usually send feedback to the faq aos team because it is where they tell us to send it in their facebook when someone send one feedback.

but if we have any better channel i would be happy to know

Feedback is good, solutions in general are not. Even if they'd be good, they would get drowned besides others that would not be. 

The best feedback one can probably give is detailed, specific and shows all the problems with a unit or a combination of units.
Even specifics, like, how points drops of X would enable a specific build or a specific type of build etc. can be super valuable.

That way the devs get all the information they need in an understandable way and can do their work.

If you send them some feedback on why a unit isn't good, probably without specifics and then add tons of solutions (maybe even across multiple emails) you're just very likely to get ignored. Not out of malice, but because your feedback would have to be deciphered - and usually there is no time for that.

[Lord Krungharr]

Hammerers vs Executioners, which is a better investment, assuming they both have the support they need to be their best?  Both get the MW on 6s to hit don't they?  Executioners can get Tenebrael Shards going with them.  Guess that potential rend -4 though on the Hammerers is basically all MW on most armor saves...but they lack speed and the strike-first possibility of Executioners.

Who runs both?!?

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Hammerers vs Executioners, which is a better investment, assuming they both have the support they need to be their best?  Both get the MW on 6s to hit don't they?  Executioners can get Tenebrael Shards going with them.  Guess that potential rend -4 though on the Hammerers is basically all MW on most armor saves...but they lack speed and the strike-first possibility of Executioners.

Who runs both?!?

Hammerers do not have mortal wounds, they just have the -2 rend by default. Executioners are -1 but have 6s turn to mortal wounds (and attack sequence ends). I’ve only seen executioners in lists, but I suspect that’s due to them being elf based lists. I was gonna give you the damage numbers for executioners in comparison but I noticed that I’ve accidentally given them MW on 6s to wound in my calculation, so I’ll have to fix that in the morning. I need to do some updates anyhow. I want to see what the command corps expected melee output is. I think it might be higher than I expected. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Is there a reason you use apostrophes for decimal places by the way? I've of commas being used in spanish, but I keep thinking you mean feet and inches.

On an extremely petty note, by that standard it should be 8.9, since its 8.8 recurring. On a less petty note, that damage number is wrong unless you are choosing not to take the champion weapon. Under that, you get 9.8 damage at at least AP 1, ( Its 8 at rend 1 and 1.8 at rend 2), so 10% higher damage . Not moving its obviously half that. 

Blissbarbs have a 6+ save by the way, that is a LOT more fragile.

I don't even think we need to compare Irondrakes to the best shooting in the game. The best thing in the game should not generally be the measure of whether or not something is reasonable/viable/balanced.

The reason why I think Irondrakes could use some kind of buff is because I figure out their role. This is also why I think they need something other than a point drop, ideally. On paper, their stats are reasonable: Their shooting profile is fine if they don't move, their save is OK and they make good use of the 5+ ward order.

But how do they actually help you win games? Since they are short-ranged shooting (can't usually shoot into the opponent's deployment zone from yours), they will need to move into position turn 1. Naturally, I think you would want them to advance into the middle of the board with your objective capturing units and provide fire support. Turn 1, they will probably get half damage or not shoot at all, which is bad because the first two turns of AoS games are crucial.

To have reasonable play, these guys will probably need to be a unit of 20 with a hero for orders. A Runelord with 20 Irondrakes is 420 points (is this why they get the "Blaze Away" ability?). That puts them into the same ball park as 20 Fusiliers with an Alchemite (450), which just seem way easier to use. Or a Steam Tank Commander and Command Corps (440). I find that hard to justify.

 

9 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Honest Wargamer has a lot of cities good results this week by the way. Reasonably varied, some aelf focused, some more human focused. Lot of Griffons and even a Black dragon showing up. Duarden didn't make any appearances that I saw

Probably because Duardin are the weakest subfaction in the book, all things considered. Not unplayable, but I think Humans and Elves have a lot more obvious play. This further hurts the viability of Irondrakes, IMO, because the book encourages you to build around only one or two races at once. Unless you are already all-in on Dwarves for the theme, I think a much more natural small unit inclusion is something like a Sorceress and some Black Guard for that sweet Tenebrael Blades combo.

Although, since running multiple units of Fusiliers is pretty bad, I could imagine a mixed human and dwarf shooting list that runs one Fusilier block and one block of Irondrakes. This would be very locked into the shooting-castle build, but would be reasonably playable. Until you run into Kruleboyz or Deepkin or that one anti-shooting battleplan, that is.

[Doko]

11 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Hammerers vs Executioners, which is a better investment, assuming they both have the support they need to be their best?  Both get the MW on 6s to hit don't they?  Executioners can get Tenebrael Shards going with them.  Guess that potential rend -4 though on the Hammerers is basically all MW on most armor saves...but they lack speed and the strike-first possibility of Executioners.

Who runs both?!?

i have tried both and executioners are best.

the damage per point is more or less the same(hammerers are a bit better).

but:

executioner have 50% more move(4 vs 6), have mortals that hammerers not,can attack first allways when charge that hammerers not,can have a ignore save buffs  that hammerers not,in general their support piece(sorcerer) is great and is a must have even if we dont bring elfs but the dwarf heroes are useless and we only bring them if we want use the dwarfs orders(that again dwarfs orders are useless and the worst of entire book).

in short,hammerers are great but executioners are even better because they have better orders and buffs available

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

26 minutes ago, Doko said:

their support piece(sorcerer) is great and is a must have even if we dont bring elfs

What does the Sorceress do in a list that doesn't bring elves?

[Doko]

14 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

What does the Sorceress do in a list that doesn't bring elves?

a mage with +2 to cast(+3 in settler gain) with a great inbuilt spell of d3 mortals AND -1 hit to enemys and with a +6 to their range of spells(with the enhacement of elfs)

and you can choose if you preffer hoarfrost or blizard,i usually choose blizard in case some enemy come close.

i allways play one and many times even two,usually dreadspears as sacrifice but sometimes i even use black guards.

maybe not the most competitive option,but in my store the combo of black dragon doing mortals to enemy with each miss+roar+sorceres 24" spell to put -1 hit to enemys have been umbeatable so far(granted we dont do 30+ tournaments of 5 rounds and we usually the best are 14 people with 3 rounds)

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

36 minutes ago, Doko said:

a mage with +2 to cast(+3 in settler gain) with a great inbuilt spell of d3 mortals AND -1 hit to enemys and with a +6 to their range of spells(with the enhacement of elfs)

and you can choose if you preffer hoarfrost or blizard,i usually choose blizard in case some enemy come close.

i allways play one and many times even two,usually dreadspears as sacrifice but sometimes i even use black guards.

maybe not the most competitive option,but in my store the combo of black dragon doing mortals to enemy with each miss+roar+sorceres 24" spell to put -1 hit to enemys have been umbeatable so far(granted we dont do 30+ tournaments of 5 rounds and we usually the best are 14 people with 3 rounds)

 

All that stuff relies on running other elves, though.

I already understand the Sorceress is good if you have other elves, I was just confused by you saying she's an auto-include even in list without elves.

[JackStreicher]

Well,

 

had a game yesterday after 1,5 months or so of a break.

The Nurgle Player played very well (I did not XD) and I was massacred.
Thalia Vedra melted to two Nurgle Snail things and 3 Blissbarb Nosebears within one turn of fighting. I was sad

 

 

 

Edited January 17 by JackStreicher

[Satyrical Sophist]

56 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

All that stuff relies on running other elves, though.

I already understand the Sorceress is good if you have other elves, I was just confused by you saying she's an auto-include even in list without elves.

I suspect people are baking in a single unit of dread spears entirely as sorcerer fodder, without considering it as other elves. It’s a pretty minimal investment that gives a battle line and screen, if you are going for two sorceresses then it’s not a lot of points each. It might also be that if you are taking anklet for the extra range on blizzard, though a battlemage might be better for that.

 

Executioners are higher damage than hammerers unless the target has a 5+ save, in which case hammerers are the same (executioners better vs 6+) as well. Hammerers are more efficient points wise against some targets, since they are 20 points cheaper. Specifically Hammerers edge out Executioners in efficiency unless the target has a 2+ or better save. Executioners are amazingly efficient vs insane save stacking, since so much of their output is MW based. If you put tenebrael blades on them the output is insane even on a per point basis,  expecting to put out 26 unsaved wound for 10 elves.  That said, if you are putting TB on a unit, that unit is going to do nutty things. Black Guard are a bit behind (they have the same profile without the mortal wounds, which aren’t as good with TB) with about 23, are 30 points cheaper, have 2 inch range and are very likely to have a 4+ ward. 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Well,

 

had a game yesterday after 1,5 months or so of a break.

The Nurgle Player played very well (I did not XD) and I was massacred.
Thalia Vedra melted to two Nurgle Snail things and 3 Blissbarb Nosebears within one turn of fighting. I was sad

Sucks, but I guess Tahlia is kind of squishy like that. After I finish all the models in my current list, I want to look into getting her and Karl Franz for a monster heavy list that focusses on counter charging. See how that works out.

 

7 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I suspect people are baking in a single unit of dread spears entirely as sorcerer fodder, without considering it as other elves. It’s a pretty minimal investment that gives a battle line and screen, if you are going for two sorceresses then it’s not a lot of points each. It might also be that if you are taking anklet for the extra range on blizzard, though a battlemage might be better for that.

She's definitely a good pick, but personally if I was just slotting her into a list without focussing on elves, I would be doing so for Tenebrael Blades. And then I would definitely want a unit that makes better use of the spell than 10 Dreadspears (can actually get or survive a charge). That's why I would consider the Sorceress + 20 Blackguard the basic package, which runs a good bit more expensive.

I think if you are planning on getting off Blades anyway, it does not matter that much that the damage output is technically lower than it could be. Whatever you hit will die anyway.

[JackStreicher]

Just now, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Sucks, but I guess Tahlia is kind of squishy like that. After I finish all the models in my current list, I want to look into getting her and Karl Franz for a monster heavy list that focusses on counter charging. See how that works out.

Yes! I plan on doing a pure cavalry list at some point

[Lord Krungharr]

Guess I was remembering the old Hammerers with the MW on 6s somehow.  Rend-2/2dmg is pretty decent though.  As cool as they look...Executioners look way cooler.

Almost time to start painting my S'tanks.  But first I have to figure out if I'm going to use oil paints on the big panels.  I want them to look like Bob Ross landscapes, but of the Mortal Realms.  

[Eucalyptus]

I've been running into some issues in my group with new Cities and just can't seem to win a game. Playing Dark Aelves and some Duardin without humans just feels so punishing. 

I can never score anything without being forced to spread out too much because of how awful battle tactics feel to play with in half the battleplans, and everything besides dwarf blobs blows over to a gust of wind with your own offense being entirely reliant on a couple GHB spells and Tenebrael Blades to be at all threatening.

Drakespawn feel good on paper but 3/4s is awful in practice and without access to a good shooting unit that won't cost me 100 bucks for 240 points it feels like they're just not doing much besides struggling desperately to score me positional battle tactics.

Orders in general feel clunky and are either awkward to use or just pretty good. They slow down the game even more and aren't impactful enough to be worth the annoyance of 3" range and rolling for priority only to go "Oh shoot my Orders!"

Counter-Charge is great on paper but is really telegraphed and awkward to use in practice. 

Shield Wall is a great tool that, annoyingly, only works in the enemy combat phase. Ironbreakers are amazing anvil with it but otherwise feel overcosted.

Strike First is great but often forces you to hang a foot Hero in the open to grant it, and on a max of 3 units that are all universally worse than the equivalents in Idoneth feels kind of bad. 

My main problem in playing them is how they do very little without buffs and all of the buffs they benefit best from target single units, which isn't the case for human units who seem to just have an abundance of impressive AOS buff pieces and actual shooting that isn't chariot spam.

In conclusion. I'm probably just not meshing with the book. I have seen lists see success but they all use at least a couple Human units to enable scoring and outside of that they feel like they score poorly and have too little impact even when they get their buffs off, while being paper thin and surprisingly expensive for the units you get.

I have played against: Stormcast (0-4), Ironjawz (0-3), KO (0-3), Slaves (1-0), Sylvaneth (0-1), and Seraphon (1-0)

[Doko]

yes i agree with you.

orders in general are bad designer,bad balanced and only delay the game as the battle tactics do.

dwarfs orders are useless,the mortals back is ******(2 mortals for each 12 died and we must waste one hero and that is our army skills?), and the shieldwall as i have sent multiples feedback to gw is useless,only work in enemy combat phase and the magic,shooting,charges or our combat phase is a 0. 

they must change shieldwall to be for a full turn untill our next turn or change forever but you loose it if you charge.

also i have said many times that ironbreakers are overcosted and a unit with 6'6 damage and 0 rend being slow must cost around 100 points(the save3 dont worth it as 10w save3 is worse than per example clanrats 20w save 5 for 100 points)

also dwarfs lost every buffs posible,the old +1 wounds of longbeards gone,the +1 attack of king gone again,the +1 hit of hurricanum gone,the +1 rend of runelord gone also(for ramged deleted and for melle nerfed into useless going from 2+ to casting it to 4+)

in general dwarfs dont have any support and is as you must play them. forget ironbreakers and irondrakes that are overcosted by 30%+ and only play hammerers without support and lomgbeard as msu units to fill the batleline tax.

is ironic but the better support that dwarfs have are the humans,have a human close and fusillers make the hammerers inmune to shooting or the enemy gonna give you a free shooting to your humans.

elfs are in better place,the retreat order is ******,but the attack first order is very strongth,, also the velociraptors are great for their cost,they are fast and 10 w with s3 for that cost is our best tank unit(only compare to ironbreakers for same cost)

also the drakespawn ryders have 2", have you tried a unit of 10? that gonna do ok damage for only 260 points and 20w with s3 is great,also some melle charriot doing mortals together is good.

but i can agree with you,city is only competitive in actual meta with humans and with the very posible incoming nerf this can even change too.

i am not a big tournament player and im fine with the balance of dwarfs and elfs,for sure they need some support from humans to work and as i said some units are umplayables as irondrakes or ironbreakers but in general isnposible play lists with 70% being dwarfs and elfs and win games