AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Skreech Verminking]

4 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Excuse me Sir, the correct designation is „Imperial Battle Pidgeon“ 🧐

Just don’t forget the bomb.

And let us hope it doesn’t come back flying 

[JackStreicher]

6 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

Which basing size did you use for the pegasus? I am planning to do the same.

I rebased it. On the picture it’s a 50mm round base. I rebased to a 40mm base since the Freeguild Marshal (next best model they can be played as) is on - 40x70ish oval

[JackStreicher]

Wild and expensive idea:

Convert the Tauralon to a Hippogryph:

- Replace the head mit a Gryph Charger head (or with the Griffon head of the Island of Blood), replace the front hooves with gryph charger claws 🤔

only issue: Too little feathers on the too half

[The Lost Sigmarite]

The new Spearhead box is a good bundle to expand a Cities collection while saving some money, that's why I (and probably you too)'ll eventually buy it. Alongside the army box (if you could grab it but if you're here you probably did) it's one hell of a way to start or expand a collection. That's why I used its content, alongside the army box and a few other minis that I have (designed to be useful but also don't create a hole in your wallet when buying new plastic crack for the army) to create a "2000 pts budget list" that uses all the bundles available (and another idea to save money) to create a balanced 2000 pts list. Here goes :

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Vindicarum
- Grand Strategy: Banners Held High
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Freeguild Cavalier-Marshal (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Divine Champion
- Artefact: Sigmarite Warhammer
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Guidance
Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy (90)
Alchemite Warforger (110)
- Lore of the Collegiate Arcane: Transmutation of Lead
Gotrek Gurnisson (480)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
10 x Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
10 x Freeguild Steelhelms (100)
20 x Freeguild Fusiliers (340)
- Reinforced x 1

Units
5 x Freeguild Cavaliers (180)
5 x Freeguild Cavaliers (180)

Artillery
Ironweld Great Cannon (150)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 480 / 400
Wounds: 103
Drops: 11
 

The full army box and spearhead are used, the only minis not from boxes are the Fusiliers and Gotrek. And ofc, I can mix and match command traits/artifacts/subfactions... I was a bit uninspired so I picked rally in combat and made a mini beatstick out of the Cavalier Marshal, but I'm sure there's better ideas at 2k pts.

Edited February 13 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Lord Krungharr]

At first I was wondering why that list looks so small....then I saw Gotrek

I'm thinking instead of Steelhelms I will put in a unit of Ironbreakers and a Runelord.  At least the Runelord is a priest, so with him the Ironbreakers can be pretty hard to shift. 

I got a Norgrimms Rune Throng last night at my FLGS............they had a Greywater Fastness Start Collecting Box, and while I wouldn't mind another 10 Ironbreakers and the Warden King, the Gyrocopter just seems terrible, but what about the Gyrobomber?  Or should I just convert the Dispossessed I have to Chaos Dwarves for my The Old World army?  

Edited February 13 by Lord Krungharr

[Satyrical Sophist]

3 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

At first I was wondering why that list looks so small....then I saw Gotrek

I'm thinking instead of Steelhelms I will put in a unit of Ironbreakers and a Runelord.  At least the Runelord is a priest, so with him the Ironbreakers can be pretty hard to shift. 

I got a Norgrimms Rune Throng last night at my FLGS............they had a Greywater Fastness Start Collecting Box, and while I wouldn't mind another 10 Ironbreakers and the Warden King, the Gyrocopter just seems terrible, but what about the Gyrobomber?  Or should I just convert the Dispossessed I have to Chaos Dwarves for my The Old World army?  

I think the gyro copters suffer from being in the same book as scourge runner chariots. There is always a use for small fast moving pieces that are relatively cheap though. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

30 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I think the gyro copters suffer from being in the same book as scourge runner chariots. There is always a use for small fast moving pieces that are relatively cheap though. 

I kinda want to run one. The Fusilier list I run often feels very static. A small  fast flyer would be great. Might add it in if points hikes prevent bump out one off my Steelhelm screens.

[Lord Krungharr]

Is a unit of 3 Gyrocopters better than 3 separate ones....or should one aim for a pair of Gyrobombers for the same points?  I see the Copters lost 4" of natural movement for some reason.  But in Misthaven and using Advance Formation, three of them could be going 15-21", which would help drop some bombs on stragglers.  I like the gun on the Bomber better on its own, but getting a Curse off and using 3 Copters with Steam Guns could be spicy.

[Satyrical Sophist]

22 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Is a unit of 3 Gyrocopters better than 3 separate ones....or should one aim for a pair of Gyrobombers for the same points?  I see the Copters lost 4" of natural movement for some reason.  But in Misthaven and using Advance Formation, three of them could be going 15-21", which would help drop some bombs on stragglers.  I like the gun on the Bomber better on its own, but getting a Curse off and using 3 Copters with Steam Guns could be spicy.

Anything focusing on copters is going to kill them, so I think single is probably the best to go for. 
 

Battlescroll changes in for us. Some pretty heavy hits really and the points decreases don’t jump out as massively significant. Thalia going down 40 is a fairly big one. The rules change of the warforger leaves me very unsure of fusiliers. Access to return fire and suppressing fire is still big game, but I’m not sure if there still is a gun line CoS list to build. I’m gonna have a look at expected output again after the changes.

 

LVO winner list went up 40 points but was 1960 and is I think barely effected by the rules changes?

The steam tank runner up goes up 150 and loses flaming weapons on steam tanks though. Fair to say that one was hit much harder.

[Ejecutor]

Fusiliers: "Hello darkness my old friend"



CITIES OF SIGMAR Alchemite Warforger, Blazing Weapons: Change the last sentence to: ‘While a unit has blazing weapons, each unmodified hit roll of 6 for an attack made by that unit with a melee weapon causes 1 mortal wound to the target in addition to any damage it inflicts.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

16 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Anything focusing on copters is going to kill them, so I think single is probably the best to go for. 
 

Battlescroll changes in for us. Some pretty heavy hits really and the points decreases don’t jump out as massively significant. Thalia going down 40 is a fairly big one. The rules change of the warforger leaves me very unsure of fusiliers. Access to return fire and suppressing fire is still big game, but I’m not sure if there still is a gun line CoS list to build. I’m gonna have a look at expected output again after the changes.

 

LVO winner list went up 40 points but was 1960 and is I think barely effected by the rules changes?

The steam tank runner up goes up 150 and loses flaming weapons on steam tanks though. Fair to say that one was hit much harder.

Reasonable changes IMO, although they do completely invalidate my list.

I think the Warforger change is good. Both of his buffs are still strong, but now you need to work much harder to use them and the units that they enable are now very different. What is good about the change, though, is that they make the decision making process much less linear for list buildling. Previously, Fusiliers were just the best unit to buff with Flaming Weapons. And they are a big enough investment that you probably wanted a cast bonus subfaction if you bring them. And the Master of Ballistics trait to make them more dependable. And maybe even the Macroscope to buff their range. Those choices are a lot less clear now, and there is much more reason to run the Alchemite even without a cast bonus or to pair him with other units.

The points increases for Steam Tanks are reasonable. It actually does have an effect. You lose a Tank or an important support piece in the spam list now.

I personally would have liked the Command Corps to be handled differently. All the abusive stuff is still there and they can still be spammed in theory. Double corps is now a lot more expensive, but IMO probably not to the point that we won't see it.

I like other point drops. I think Cannons are more of a real choice now, especially since Fusiliers don't get ranged mortals anymore. Now the best source of ranged pseudo-mortals is probably actually the armour piercing shell. Ogor Warhulk drop is appreciated, too, even though I don't know if it is enough to change anything.

The Tahlia drop is nice. I still think there is a Tahlia+Cavalry+Steelhelm Spam list to be discovered somewhere.

EDIT: What is conspicuously absent are points or rules changes to dwarves and elves. Sad!

Edited February 15 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Satyrical Sophist]

6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Reasonable changes IMO, although they do completely invalidate my list.

I think the Warforger change is good. Both of his buffs are still strong, but now you need to work much harder to use them and the units that they enable are now very different. What is good about the change, though, is that they make the decision making process much less linear for list buildling. Previously, Fusiliers were just the best unit to buff with Flaming Weapons. And they are a big enough investment that you probably wanted a cast bonus subfaction if you bring them. And the Master of Ballistics trait to make them more dependable. And maybe even the Macroscope to buff their range. Those choices are a lot less clear now, and there is much more reason to run the Alchemite even without a cast bonus or to pair him with other units.

The points increases for Steam Tanks are reasonable. It actually does have an effect. You lose a Tank or an important support piece in the spam list now.

I personally would have liked the Command Corps to be handled differently. All the abusive stuff is still there and they can still be spammed in theory. Double corps is now a lot more expensive, but IMO probably not to the point that we won't see it.

I like other point drops. I think Cannons are more of a real choice now, especially since Fusiliers don't get ranged mortals anymore. Now the best source of ranged pseudo-mortals is probably actually the armour piercing shell. Ogor Warhulk drop is appreciated, too, even though I don't know if it is enough to change anything.

The Tahlia drop is nice. I still think there is a Tahlia+Cavalry+Steelhelm Spam list to be discovered somewhere.

EDIT: What is conspicuously absent are points or rules changes to dwarves and elves. Sad!

I think Wildercorps deserve looking at more, assuming they ever get a release on their own. It feels like it’s been an age since the vs box was out. 
 

I’m not surprised on the elves and dwarfs honestly, I’m really curious to see if we see more of them popping up now the flaming weapons change has happened.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I think Wildercorps deserve looking at more, assuming they ever get a release on their own. It feels like it’s been an age since the vs box was out. 
 

I’m not surprised on the elves and dwarfs honestly, I’m really curious to see if we see more of them popping up now the flaming weapons change has happened.

Some elf lists were already doing well competitively. They might now be viewed as better than human goodstuff by some players. I don't see dwarves gaining a lot of stock, though.

Fusilier+Alchemite lists were not dominating in tournaments as far as I know, so I see that change as mainly being aimed at casual play/internal balance/improving the play experience.

[Ejecutor]

16 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

EDIT: What is conspicuously absent are points or rules changes to dwarves and elves. Sad!

They are getting ready to get them out with the index.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

They are getting ready to get them out with the index.

Still at least half a year away. And a bunch of other stuff got random changes, so I don't see it as a valid excuse.

[Satyrical Sophist]

9 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

They are getting ready to get them out with the index.

Even if there are indices coming that doesn’t mean elves and dwarfs are being removed. I don’t even mean that they are necessarily staying, the space marine index had a lot of stuff in it that got removed in the codex shortly afterwards. 
 

If you have some kind of confirmation that indices are coming can you share it, otherwise can you add some kind of “assuming 4th has indices” or “if 4th is a refresh”. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

37 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Even if there are indices coming that doesn’t mean elves and dwarfs are being removed. I don’t even mean that they are necessarily staying, the space marine index had a lot of stuff in it that got removed in the codex shortly afterwards. 

They have to be staying, though. Removing them in the hypothetical index would be maximally evil, considering the advance warning we got about everything else that was removed from Cities.

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

They have to be staying, though. Removing them in the hypothetical index would be maximally evil, considering the advance warning we got about everything else that was removed from Cities.

My hopeful expectation is that they get removed when/if a new cities wave with elves and dwarfs comes in, meaning proxies are possible 

[JackStreicher]

Well rip fusiliers. 170 pts for this is a joke

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

48 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Well rip fusiliers. 170 pts for this is a joke

Should probably have gone back down to 150. Whatever, maybe they get good again when the edition changes in a few months.

None of the castellite units are look especially impressive right now. At the moment, cavalry lists are probably the strongest. So, Cavaliers, Cavalier Marshall, Griffin, Tahlia, with some support stuff.

[Satyrical Sophist]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Should probably have gone back down to 150. Whatever, maybe they get good again when the edition changes in a few months.

None of the castellite units are look especially impressive right now. At the moment, cavalry lists are probably the strongest. So, Cavaliers, Cavalier Marshall, Griffin, Tahlia, with some support stuff.

That list does look nicely thematic at least. I’ve got 20 fusiliers at the moment, working on painting them at some point so I’ll give them a try. I do wonder whether access to suppressing fire and return fire might make them worth trying a bit. Mainly painting elves at the moment though.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

18 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

That list does look nicely thematic at least. I’ve got 20 fusiliers at the moment, working on painting them at some point so I’ll give them a try. I do wonder whether access to suppressing fire and return fire might make them worth trying a bit. Mainly painting elves at the moment though.

I want to do mixed arms, but I wonder if the incentives are really there on the rules level. Kind of feels like running a Tank Commander would be more useful than bringing a Fusilier block plus hero for orders plus screens, since it can both issue and receive its own orders and does not need to be protected.

[Satyrical Sophist]

8 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I want to do mixed arms, but I wonder if the incentives are really there on the rules level. Kind of feels like running a Tank Commander would be more useful than bringing a Fusilier block plus hero for orders plus screens, since it can both issue and receive its own orders and does not need to be protected.

It does feel like fusiliers are over costed without access to flaming weapons, but I could definitely see a place as an unscreened unit if the cost fell a bit.

 

What is sort of funny now is that 10 fusiliers have 22 4/4/-1/1 shots at 170 while 20 corsairs with hand bows have 40 shots at 4/4/-/1 at 180, jumping to 60 shots with all out attack. Nowhere near the same range, but that’s a lot of dice. 

[JackStreicher]

53 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I do wonder whether access to suppressing fire and return fire might make them worth trying a bit.

I‘ve run them half a dozen times without the warforger, but with the +1,+1 Command Trait. They barely did anything and didn’t feel like being worth their points - that was pre-points-increase. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

The command trait doesn’t work with return fire.

change the to wound roll to 3+ and they might be worth 150-160 pts.

Edited February 15 by JackStreicher

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I‘ve run them half a dozen times without the warforger, but with the +1,+1 Command Trait. They barely did anything and didn’t feel like being worth their points - that was pre-points-increase. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

The command trait doesn’t work with return fire.

change the to wound roll to 3+ and they might be worth 150-160 pts.

Running them with their full support (Alchemite, Command trait and screens), they felt like a strong offensive threat, but a weak point defensively. I always had to work quite hard to make sure they survive the first 2 rounds because they are such obvious prime targets. Now, without that offensive presence, they don't feel like they are worth the effort.

I will still finish painting a block of 20. Chances are they get back to a more reasonable place in a year or so. Until then, maybe it's time to check out those great cannons?