AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Any thoughts on what base size Pontifex Zenestra will be ?

Looking at the model I dont think its neither a 120mm nor 60mm oval.

Could be 75mm as Demis, but I have a strong inkling its gonna be the 90mm one.

120mm is definitely too large. I would guess 105 x 70mm.

[JackStreicher]

59 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

120mm is definitely too large. I would guess 105 x 70mm.

Yup I‘d guess it’s a corpse cart size base.

[Shoshuro]

@The Lost Sigmarite

Oh yeah its a little too much

Then can aim for :

5 Cavalier + marshall (300)

Hero + relic envoy (90)

Alchemist (90)

Fusilier x3 (300)

Stealhelm x2 (200)

Total : 980

 

@Neil Arthur Hotep

If i go magic i like the +1d6 option more, maybe making a list with 2 alchemist and 2 battlemage, those spell seem diverse and nice. Maybe using the heal from the medic that heal 1d3 to 3 human.

But yeah i think i'd go Greywater. Nice to know tank could be use even before they upgrade them. It gives me hope. Plan would be to stay in front of my army, all out attack + suppressing fire + charge from tank

[Myrdin]

What do you guys think about the two special units ?

Haskal Hexbane warband and the Ven Denst Duo ?

 

Ven Densts family seems like a solid "auto inlcude" for many builds.

While Galen isnt as impressive, he is a basic infantry hero, that can do generic infantry hero stuff, while also having the super niche ability to one shot Endless spells, and maybe make a hybrid combat-wizard enemy hero slightly more worried.

His daughter though... oh yeah Doralia is where its at. 2 shots at 24" with 3+ 3+ -2 2 is already pretty solid. If you Have a Hurricanum in your army, being a single infantry sized hero she can easily hug it tight while not being in the way for your other units thus enjoying that crispy 2+ To Hit.

Both are joining you at 160pts, and while I would love to be able to take just Doralia, even if she was more slightly more expensive, considering its 80pts for one very scary sniper hero and 80 for a generic infantry hero with little bit more niche, its not a bad deal at all.

 

On the other hand the Haskal Hexbane group... yeah I am not sold on that one. Other than the one funny model with the Crossbow Launcher (who named this ? I keep imagining a bazooka shooting regular sized crossbows, that then fire bolts while flying in the air xd) with the D6 dmg, and the ability to smack someone with a torch and deal D3 mortal wounds they bring little to the table.

If their Witch Hunting ability made all other units attacking the target deal more damage I would consider it a pretty cool gimmick. Calling it a gimmick because you cant target focus the ability if there is a enemy wizard present. But since it affects only Haskel and his group, and they do very little beside this, and its not as if they were especially tough or fast either so .... eh ?

*Nitpick: Also the fact Heskel has a 5+ Ward while miss Big girl general on Manticore has just a 6+ is just.... Who gave her a 6+ and didnt think twice about how stupid it looks. A unique named character in that price range should be expected to have at least 5+ for Sigmars sake!*

[Lord Krungharr]

2 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Any thoughts on what base size Pontifex Zenestra will be ?

Looking at the model I dont think its neither a 120mm nor 60mm oval.

Could be 75mm as Demis, but I have a strong inkling its gonna be the 90mm one.

Yeah I think it'll be at least the 90mm to accommodate the big robed guys.  Kinda wish it was more scenic on the base too but oh well.

 For the mechanized theme army, I'd probably go with Stank Commander/3 Stanks, 2 Warforgers (1 for the save 1 for the MW thing), allied Lord Ordinator and a KO Gunhauler (can you fit 2?), and some Gyrobombers on the flanks.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Lord Krungharr

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

What do you guys think about the two special units ?

Haskal Hexbane warband and the Ven Denst Duo ?

WHU bands have always been terrible in AoS except for Grinkrak and his loons (and the Khorne ones to farm blood tithe).

Though you have sold me on the wholesome father/daughter witch hunter duo. It's a nicesafeguard against many armies (endless spells will happen at 2000 pts), and picking off expensive high wound models (think Brutes, Chaos Warriors) over the time of a game can add up !

[Lord Krungharr]

No way, man, Slynk Skittershank's Clawpack is THE BEST warband!

[JackStreicher]

This narrative battle report (CoS VS Soulblight) was amazing:

https://youtu.be/3F4zRc8tql4?si=Cq5zoh_7MoY9pt1k

[Satyrical Sophist]

I'm going through some of the rules and wondering how some effects work exactly. I realise that this is the kind of thing where I imagine the FAQ and Errata will probably answer but I have some unusual things.

 

• The way Advance in Formation is worded I don't think there is anything stopping you starting a Castelite unit next to one hero with this order, then moving next to a different hero with this order and fortifying there, leaving the first hero behind.
• Counter charge is an interesting one. I don't know how it interacts with Unleash Hell. Given Counter-Charge is End of the Charge Phase, I don't THINK you can unleash hell. The other one is monstrous rampages. I THINK you get around them. Both Monstrous Rampages and Counter charge are end of the charge phase. According to 1.6.2 if you have multiple simultaneous effects then the player whose turn it is would apply all their end of the charge effects before you apply yours, and you can then counter charge. I don't know how this works for your monstrous actions. I've seen a lot of people doing all monstrous actions together with the active player choosing first, but I can't find anything to say that you have to. If you don't have to then you could get a monster in with counter charge and still get a monstrous rampage.
• Return Fire. This one is probably more obvious, but this one is waaaay more flexible than it sounds. The unit that got shot does not need to be the unit that returns fire. You do not need to shoot at the triggering unit with your unit either. Also, this one doesn't actually say it triggers in the shooting phase, only when something of yours gets shot. I THINK you could respond to an unleash hell with this. It'd require some fairly specific stuff to happen, but I can't see anything stopping it. It would just need a hero sandwich, where a unit charges past a hero, but stays within 3, triggers unleash hell, then the hero gives an order back to a shooting unit. Also, I think in the mirror you can volley back and forth shooting if there are multiple Return fires. Other notes are that the SHOT unit doesn't need to be a Human, but the order giving hero and shooting unit DO.
• I have more but need to check wording. 

[Skreech Verminking]

4 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

WHU bands have always been terrible in AoS except for Grinkrak and his loons (and the Khorne ones to farm blood tithe).

Though you have sold me on the wholesome father/daughter witch hunter duo. It's a nicesafeguard against many armies (endless spells will happen at 2000 pts), and picking off expensive high wound models (think Brutes, Chaos Warriors) over the time of a game can add up !

 

2 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

No way, man, Slynk Skittershank's Clawpack is THE BEST warband!

Funnily enough, the two newer skaven whu warbands have been amazingly good.

but tjen again, that is probably because the rest of the book is currently just awful😂

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I'm going through some of the rules and wondering how some effects work exactly. I realise that this is the kind of thing where I imagine the FAQ and Errata will probably answer but I have some unusual things.

 

• The way Advance in Formation is worded I don't think there is anything stopping you starting a Castelite unit next to one hero with this order, then moving next to a different hero with this order and fortifying there, leaving the first hero behind.
• Counter charge is an interesting one. I don't know how it interacts with Unleash Hell. Given Counter-Charge is End of the Charge Phase, I don't THINK you can unleash hell. The other one is monstrous rampages. I THINK you get around them. Both Monstrous Rampages and Counter charge are end of the charge phase. According to 1.6.2 if you have multiple simultaneous effects then the player whose turn it is would apply all their end of the charge effects before you apply yours, and you can then counter charge. I don't know how this works for your monstrous actions. I've seen a lot of people doing all monstrous actions together with the active player choosing first, but I can't find anything to say that you have to. If you don't have to then you could get a monster in with counter charge and still get a monstrous rampage.
• Return Fire. This one is probably more obvious, but this one is waaaay more flexible than it sounds. The unit that got shot does not need to be the unit that returns fire. You do not need to shoot at the triggering unit with your unit either. Also, this one doesn't actually say it triggers in the shooting phase, only when something of yours gets shot. I THINK you could respond to an unleash hell with this. It'd require some fairly specific stuff to happen, but I can't see anything stopping it. It would just need a hero sandwich, where a unit charges past a hero, but stays within 3, triggers unleash hell, then the hero gives an order back to a shooting unit. Also, I think in the mirror you can volley back and forth shooting if there are multiple Return fires. Other notes are that the SHOT unit doesn't need to be a Human, but the order giving hero and shooting unit DO.
• I have more but need to check wording. 

Good post! I am still wrapping my mind around the exact mechanics of orders, what they can do and who they affect.

Just a few things I have thought about in this context, with no particular point:

• Orders are not Command Abilities, so there is no limit on how many orders a unit can be affected by at once. You don't have to choose. And you can also command them on top of that. The unit that benefits from an order can be identical to the hero that uses it, as well.
• Counter charge allows for some shennenigans. A Freeguild Cavalier-Marshall can counter-charge, gain strikes first, and give a nearby unit of Cavaliers strikes first as well, potentially majorly swinging a combat out of nowhere.
• Flying units like the Marshall on Griffon have the potential to order themselves to counter-charge over a screen. Especially the Griffon-Marshall, who gets double orders, and can be kitted out into a pretty devestating melee guy.
• The Steam Tank Commander can pull a bunch of fun tricks with order, like giving itself strikes-first with Suppressing Fire, letting itself counter-charge and deal mortals, or responding to Unleash Hell with Return Fire. Personally, I find that kind of flexibility pretty valuable, and it justifies the hybrid shooting/melee profiles for me (which would ordinarily be a downside).

[The Lost Sigmarite]

14 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

This narrative battle report (CoS VS Soulblight) was amazing:

https://youtu.be/3F4zRc8tql4?si=Cq5zoh_7MoY9pt1k

It also really showcases how strong Vindicarum's rally in combat is. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, The Lost Sigmarite said:

It also really showcases how strong Vindicarum's rally in combat is. 

Rally in combat is super strong. Soulblight has been on top of the meta since the new book came out in part because their healing can be done in combat. Vindicarum is just currently flying under the radar for non-competitive players because dealing big damage is and casting at +4 is more immediately exciting. The same applies to Tahlia Vedra, I think.

[Shoshuro]

I was surprised they use vindicarium's without flagelants in this video, is it really that strong since its only on 6 ?

If you lose 18 miniatures in a unit you bring back 3 ?

I'd prefer medic from command corp or Tahlia if i want heal in my army.

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Good post! I am still wrapping my mind around the exact mechanics of orders, what they can do and who they affect.

Just a few things I have thought about in this context, with no particular point:

• Orders are not Command Abilities, so there is no limit on how many orders a unit can be affected by at once. You don't have to choose. And you can also command them on top of that. The unit that benefits from an order can be identical to the hero that uses it, as well.
• Counter charge allows for some shennenigans. A Freeguild Cavalier-Marshall can counter-charge, gain strikes first, and give a nearby unit of Cavaliers strikes first as well, potentially majorly swinging a combat out of nowhere.
• Flying units like the Marshall on Griffon have the potential to order themselves to counter-charge over a screen. Especially the Griffon-Marshall, who gets double orders, and can be kitted out into a pretty devestating melee guy.
• The Steam Tank Commander can pull a bunch of fun tricks with order, like giving itself strikes-first with Suppressing Fire, letting itself counter-charge and deal mortals, or responding to Unleash Hell with Return Fire. Personally, I find that kind of flexibility pretty valuable, and it justifies the hybrid shooting/melee profiles for me (which would ordinarily be a downside).

These are some great ideas!

Counter shooting steamtank lol
Enemies: "Feel the sting of our arrows filthy human!"

Steam tank: Turns around with malicious intent.

I am a huge fan of the Marshall on Gryffon, always liked the unit and hes been a dependable staple of the previous book. Throw in Counter Charge and Engage the Foe orders and.... oh boy. Thats one angry oversized chicken!

Edited August 30, 2023 by Myrdin

[JackStreicher]

46 minutes ago, Shoshuro said:

I was surprised they use vindicarium's without flagelants in this video, is it really that strong since its only on 6 ?

If you lose 18 miniatures in a unit you bring back 3 ?

I'd prefer medic from command corp or Tahlia if i want heal in my army.

On average sure. Usually one doesn't roll average it's spiking high, low and sometimes average.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Tahlia Vedra

Imo her ability is bonkers. I'll definately add her to my army (although I am playing Misthavn)

[Myrdin]

Do units taken as allies inherit the specific City bonus ?

For example does Greywater city ability work on a allied ranged unit ?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Do units taken as allies inherit the specific City bonus ?

For example does Greywater city ability work on a allied ranged unit ?

In general, allies don't get to benefit from allegiance abilities unless otherwise stated.

In the case of Greywater, though, it's not the units that get free commands. You, the player, get the ability to use All-Out Attack three times in the shooting phase, and you can use it on whatever units you like, including allies.

EDIT: Was a bit quick: You get to use All-Out Attack three times regardless of ally or not, but you only get to do it without spending command points if you use it on GREYWATER units the first two times.

So command your allies last, I guess, or just pay extra.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Rally in combat is super strong. Soulblight has been on top of the meta since the new book came out in part because their healing can be done in combat. Vindicarum is just currently flying under the radar for non-competitive players because dealing big damage is and casting at +4 is more immediately exciting. The same applies to Tahlia Vedra, I think.

Anything that lets you bypass an universal rule (here being you normally can't rally in combat) is always super strong. I think Vindicarum is top 3 strongest subfactions in the BT, period. Especially in smaller points games with less minis. Tahlia I don't know, unlike Vindicarum allegiance ability she isn't free and she's still weirdly fragile/stuck in Hammerhal Aqsha, one of my least favourite cities. 

Also I think Flagellants are a trap in Vindicarum. Yes you rally on 5+ but the warscroll is meh, I prefer to rally on a 6+ on a better unit. 

[Shoshuro]

What would be top 3 competitive subfaction in your opinion ?

What factions people here intend to build around ?

Greywater seems strong to me.

Excelcis seems nice if you play a cavalry army but i want to focus more on shooting.

Hallowheart attract me because i like magic (with command corp to heal those mages maybe), allowing to take something else than +1 to cast on battlemage like the +6 range or +1 to dispell. Maybe stronger when this season ends i was told.

Misthavn to help charge, get objectives fast, but 1d6 move seems is not so reliable ?

The hammerall that gives you 10 bravery and can help old the line but a little boring and lot of mini to paint.

Lethis, i like the colors, but it seems bad. You get a prayer that you pass 50% of the time with low range. If you fail you can't try again with an other priest right ? Maybe being priest does something else to your heroes too ? Do they get some other basic prayers ?

Other subfactions didn't interest me.

[JackStreicher]

7 minutes ago, Shoshuro said:

Misthavn to help charge, get objectives fast, but 1d6 move seems is not so reliable ?

Move your gunline into position.

Excelsis is a trap imo - you will usually smash anything you want to charge into to pieces. Sprinkling the shattered corpses with Mortal Wounds seems an odd waste of efficiency.

Greywater is straight forward, judging the quality of our shooting however I am not sure if it's that much of a force multiplier (a Hurricanum does the same trick and more)

Lethis is a wild card - could be great

Hammerhals: They are fine and great for combined orders: Advance in formation + Engage the Foe for Cavalry and all that while only needing one hero to do so.

Vindicarum: Very strong recursion of horde units

Settler's gain/Hollowheart: Pick you poison, both are viable though HH will need a command corpse for healing (as AoS Coach talked about in his latest show)

Living City is strong.

Tempest's eye (my fomer favourite) is useless - at least it has the least impactful of abilities. I've got to double check since cycle-charging with Cavaliers could be how it will work in reality + cherry picking the best KO support.

Edited August 30, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Shoshuro]

About tempest's eye i heard some use could be that someone could throw a little flying or fast unit and engage your big buffed fusilier unit. Now you have to waste your shooting phase shooting at that. With Tempest's eye you can retreat and shoot something else

I'm not sure its useless but it doesn't look good yeah.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

I'd say best subfactions are Greywater, Misthavn and Vindicarum. I feel like Vindicarum does better hordes than Hammerhal Ghyra, yeah Bravery 10 is nice but Rally in combat - come on, that's so much better. And it's great on anything, not just hordes. A 5 man squad of Cavaliers can really benefit from it for instance.

For the magic Cities... they're both good. I was wondering, if you play Settler's Gain, which Lumineth wizard would you ally with ?

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Tempest's eye (my fomer favourite) is useless - at least it has the least impactful of abilities. I've got to double check since cycle-charging with Cavaliers could be how it will work in reality + cherry picking the best KO support.

Same here.

Bunch of Pistollers and Shadow Warriors were my mainstay for almost every list especially in Tempest Eye.

The removal of pistollers is just odd. They would fit this new book well, the playstyle, looks, lore. Hell the commands, orders and even some of the cities, mianly Tempest Eye here would fit them perfectly. TE is pretty meh outside of some very janky plays.

For example a mechanized army with bunch of Gyrocopters in units might be able to make use of it, since the new copter and bombers all have 3+ save thus making them more durable and maybe more viable to throw at the enemy, retreat and then still shoot... hmm that might be fun actualy, though to really use it well you`d probably needs some Duardin hero support in there just in case.

Yes Living City is still going strong I think. Dreadlord on BD and Marshall on Gryffon have both access to an AoE charge reroll. Taking a Wildform Wizard with the Chicken lord would result in a pretty scary charge possibilities....

*Yet another nitpick: really hate how spells are also race keyword restrictive. So magic became racist now lol ? So stupid, sigh...*

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Myrdin