Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[NauticalSoup]

@CommissarRotke

I looked at mine and they do indeed have identical grips to the other weapons, so weapon swaps should be easy if you get the alternate weapons.

I think @Dogmantra has a good idea as well, the spear blades are actually pretty big and could be cut down into a short sword if you liked the look of that- might pair well with their smaller shields.

[feadair]

Victorian GT in Australia (58 players), SCE at 5-0 and 4-1. Lists:

[lare2]

Friendship crossbows made me chuckle. 

[Geoffreyvt]

Much of the same lists eveywhere.

Trying to do something a bit different and came up with this one:

 - Army Faction: Stormcast Eternals
     - Army Type: Scions of the Storm
     - Subfaction: Knights Excelsior
     - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
     - Triumph: Inspired
LEADERS
Krondys (600)*
     - Spells: Celestial Blades
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
     - General
     - Command Traits: Shock and Awe
     - Artefacts of Power: Mirrorshield
Knight-Vexillor with Banner of Apotheosis (160)*
BATTLELINE
3 x Annihilators (200)*
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)*
5 x Protectors (225)*
OTHER
2 x Stormdrake Guard (340)*
     - Drakerider’s Lance
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
1 x Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
CORE BATTALIONS
 -  *Battle Regiment
TOTAL POINTS: 2000/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

 

What do you think?

[lare2]

18 hours ago, Geoffreyvt said:

Knight-Vexillor with Banner of Apotheosis (160)

How you planning to run this chap? I never include him and kinda forget he exists. 

[CommissarRotke]

3 hours ago, lare2 said:

How you planning to run this chap? I never include him and kinda forget he exists. 

in this case, to bring back lost paladins since you can do up to 3 wounds

[Dogmantra]

7 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

in this case, to bring back lost paladins since you can do up to 3 wounds

Feels like a big risk to do on paladins though, given you're rolling a d3. You're only guaranteed to get 1 back if you use all three picks on one unit.

[CommissarRotke]

Maybe just to heal them then. Would be cool if we could bring back Paladins at 1 or 2 wounds

[Geoffreyvt]

4 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Feels like a big risk to do on paladins though, given you're rolling a d3. You're only guaranteed to get 1 back if you use all three picks on one unit.

True, but wirh this and Emerald Lifeswarm, it feels a bit more solid. Plan is to keep the Protectors and Annihilators with shield alive, Grandhammers come down to do some hurt. Dragons w lances can also dish out some damage. And krondys is no slouch either.

None of them do high damage, but jointly maybe it can do enough. 

[lare2]

There's not really much mention of the new scoring system here. Just wondering what people's thoughts are relating to SCE. As someone who regularly runs 6 Longstrike, I'm really not too fussed. 

[Dogmantra]

5 hours ago, lare2 said:

There's not really much mention of the new scoring system here. Just wondering what people's thoughts are relating to SCE. As someone who regularly runs 6 Longstrike, I'm really not too fussed. 

I suspect that Longstrikes will still see decent play, although some people will swap over to a block of 10-15 Judicators. It's really down to whether the disadvantages of Judicators are enough to keep people using Longstrikes. The way I see it, Judicators are almost as much of a liability given they're battleline so can give up 2 points for broken ranks, 15 models has a bit of a larger footprint and they're only 24" rather than 30" range which I think combined will make them a little bit harder to screen. Plus a unit of 10 isn't as powerful as 6 longstrikes, and a unit of 15 is 120 points more. My kneejerk reaction is that we'll see a few more people using Judicators but Longstrikes won't disappear.

What I'm more interested in is the Stormdrake Guard. I wonder if this might mean we see less of them. They'll still be good at hitting hard of course, but my experience has been that if you only have 2 they are quite a liability. At least in the limited number of games I've faced SDG, when there have been just 2 in a single unit they've ended up whiffing and just giving me points. 9 wounds on a 3+ isn't the hardest thing in the world to kill, and getting even one model is already 1VP for a monster kill. 2 VPs instead for taking out the unit in one sweep or 3 if you split it across two turns, plus potentially 2 more for a battle tactic might honestly be enough to make people reconsider taking those individual units and either go more all-in on them or ditch them for something else.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Dogmantra

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

My lists are hardly affected by the new battlescroll update.

Longstrike Raptors have absurd firepower, but their fragility is equally absurd.

In fact, I never used Longstrike Raptors since the new SCE tome was released as they are easily wiped out by even the most modest shooting or spells. They are as good as dead as soon as you loose thunderbolt volley on the first turn. I have instead relied on 15 judicators and/or knight-Judicators supported by ballistas.

[umlaut31]

1 hour ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

My lists are hardly affected by the new battlescroll update.

Longstrike Raptors have absurd firepower, but their fragility is equally absurd.

In fact, I never used Longstrike Raptors since the new SCE tome was released as they are easily wiped out by even the most modest shooting or spells. They are as good as dead as soon as you loose thunderbolt volley on the first turn. I have instead relied on 15 judicators and/or knight-Judicators supported by ballistas.

How do you find the damage output of the ballistas, and how many do you use? I have quite a few sat on the shelf and a lord ordinator - love the models but never thought their damage would match up to the equivalent points spent on raptors, so for competitive games always lean towards raptors and thunderbolt volley. But always interested in changing things up!

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

42 minutes ago, umlaut31 said:

How do you find the damage output of the ballistas, and how many do you use? I have quite a few sat on the shelf and a lord ordinator - love the models but never thought their damage would match up to the equivalent points spent on raptors, so for competitive games always lean towards raptors and thunderbolt volley. But always interested in changing things up!

I regularly use 2 knight judicators and 3 ballistas in stormkeep list...for casual games, unfortunately. 

Ballistas' damage output is too unreliable for their cost.

In fact, replacing 3 ballistas with 2 knight judicators is way more efficient use of points. 

If you want to take competitive shooting unit that is also not vanguard raptors, do not take ballistas.

Big block of judicators or even multiple knight judicators would serve you better.

I use multiple ballistas only because I like the model and the lore.

[lare2]

I'd love to run ballista but the odd time I have, that damage is far too swingy for me. Really wish they went the way of 40k and changed it to something like D3+3 damage.

Regarding Longstrike, they are fragile but I've only ever lost a unit of them once since 3rd dropped. I figure that if my opponent's done well enough to kill them then they've already probably won the game anyway. 

[NauticalSoup]

Same issues with ballistas. The warscroll is too undertuned atm, casual games only, especially with the ordinator ballista ball.

[Acid_Nine]

Alright, slowly coming back to AoS because I cannot resist the allure of dragon armies. I know they are very much the meta, but I didn't see a lot of the actual dragons in lists

How do the two Dracoth models fair?

[NauticalSoup]

4 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

Alright, slowly coming back to AoS because I cannot resist the allure of dragon armies. I know they are very much the meta, but I didn't see a lot of the actual dragons in lists

How do the two Dracoth models fair?

The big dragons are pretty overcosted atm so they're hard to fit into a list. They're also a bit fragile for points.

The smaller dragon rider guys are absolutely tearing up the meta and probably in line to get nerfed (again lol)

[Acid_Nine]

1 hour ago, NauticalSoup said:

The big dragons are pretty overcosted atm so they're hard to fit into a list. They're also a bit fragile for points.

The smaller dragon rider guys are absolutely tearing up the meta and probably in line to get nerfed (again lol)

yea, i was afraid of that. I am slowly working up the courage to buy one and turn it into the magic dragon. I plan on using it to keep at a distance and bully small units or something. The other components of this list is x2 squads of dracoth guard, a knight draconis and a seperate guard, and 2 units of prosecutors.

this is super far off, so I may post my in progress list soon.

Edit: whelp, this is my list!

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals -
Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Scions of the Storm) -
Mortal Realm: Chamon -
Grand Strategy: Hold the Line -
Triumphs:
LEADERS Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)
* Lord-Celestant on Dracoth (215)* - General - Command Trait: Envoy of the Heavens - Stormstrike Glaive & Thundershield - Artefact: Drakescale Armour - Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
Lord-Imperatant (175)* - Artefact: Hammer of Might

UNITS
2 x Dracothian Guard Concussors (220)
10 x Vindictors (260)
5 x Vindictors (130)
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)
3 x Annihilators (200)
3 x Praetors (165)
3 x Aetherwings (65)
CORE BATTALIONS *Warlord ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS Artefact

So this list is just the barebones of what I can get / use without purchasing too much. What I would need to get is L-C on dracoth, the warcry box of stormcasts, the concussors,  and second hand aetherwings.

I have no clue what I am doing

 

help!.pdf

Edited March 16, 2022 by Acid_Nine
added a list

[Acid_Nine]

hate to double post but what is the "proper" loadout for the stormdrake guard? and which flavor of dracoth rider is the best usually?

 

[readercolin]

1 hour ago, Acid_Nine said:

hate to double post but what is the "proper" loadout for the stormdrake guard? and which flavor of dracoth rider is the best usually?

 

Lances are better if you are planning to do a lot of charging, swords better for anvils that are going to remain stuck in combat.  Realistically, go with whichever is cooler to you, as they are similar enough to not be a huge deal.

For dracothian guard, fulminators are the best damage wise, concussors are second best, desolators are... Questionable, and tempestors are useful as a solid ranged unit that can also get stuck into melee.  Realistically, unless you are running a ton of them, you get a block of fulminators and call it a day.

Edited March 17, 2022 by readercolin

[NauticalSoup]

It may become worth noting that fulms are better, but now they give up extra vp in a lot of matchups, so uh... I don't know it probably doesn't matter but SCE meta lists are handing over a loooooooooot of extra VP even to their closest matchups now. 

[readercolin]

50 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

It may become worth noting that fulms are better, but now they give up extra vp in a lot of matchups, so uh... I don't know it probably doesn't matter but SCE meta lists are handing over a loooooooooot of extra VP even to their closest matchups now. 

The problem is that when you look at the numbers, fulminators are significantly better than concussors, which are still the second best.  How much so?

Below are the stats for units of just 2 guys, and only looking at melee:

Save	Charging	fulminators	concussors
2+	9.33		4.89		6.67
3+	12.44		6.52		8.22
4+	15.56		8.15		9.78
5+	18.67		9.78		11.33
6+	18.67		9.78		11.33
-	18.67		9.78		11.33

As you can see, concussors do less than 2 more damage than fulminators that aren't charging, but 7 less damage than charging fulminators.  Where this becomes particularly relevant is when you look at some of the various "damage checks" in the game.  A megagargant has a 4+ save and 35 wounds.  A squad of pink horrors is 6+ save and ~50 wounds.  A maw-krusha is 18 wounds on a 3+ save.  Basically, you can look and say that a reinforced squad of fulminators can, on average, meet the DPS check - especially if they can get a buff (all out attack, celestial blades, a triumph, whatever).  A reinforced squad of concussors... can't.  And even in the worst case scenario of your guys get stuck in combat, it takes 5 rounds of being stuck in combat for a unit of concussors to match a unit of fulminators.

Basically, all I'm saying here is that until you reach a points cost where you can take 6 concussors for the same price as 4 fulminators, you likely won't see concussors hit the table outside of "dracothian guard spam" lists - despite them being the second best dracothian guard.  The more likely result of giving up VP's with fulminators is that instead you just won't take them period, and instead switch to a different strategy (ex. stormdrake guard, annihilator lists, etc.).  Alternatively, if they get a warscroll "nudge" that takes them from 3 damage on the charge to 2, they will get reigned in close enough that it may be worth taking concussors sometimes (as they go to 14.22 damage before saves).

All this being said, I will note that this is a significant change for Dracothian Guard vs their second edition book, which was "run concussors if you run any, but you are better running nothing".  So do be aware that these things change, and if there is one "build" that you find cooler than another, then build your guys that way, and one day they may become top meta units.

[NauticalSoup]

Yeah always be mindful when buying and building expensive models specifically to play The List since the metagame is a balace-by-whack-a-mole affair. And the VP thing shows that all our best toys are on their radar for nerfing.

[Acid_Nine]

In all honesty, I just want to run an army of dragons or close to dragons. I was very dissapointed by the lumineth in this regaurd, so I am thinking of just doing storm casts. Meta chasing will always be a thing, And I am more looking at lists surrounding the two true dragons than anything else (while still remaining a threat)