General's Handbook 2021 - oh, FFS!!!

[Nizrah]

Maybe you should go to the ophthalmologist if you can't read it? 

[Marcvs]

12 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Maybe you should go to the ophthalmologist if you can't read it? 

I would encourage you to read again the OP (and others in the topic in fact) and then maybe retract your comment?

[Christopher Rowe]

29 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Maybe you should go to the ophthalmologist if you can't read it? 

How old are you?

[KrispyXIV]

Me and everyone I know who bought the book thought the form factor and design were excellent - the best version of this sort of book put out yet.  

Rather than assuming malice OR incompetence, I'd assume that this design was intentionally chosen to address market demand - which unfortunately, clearly has issues for a segment of the market which finds it hard to read.  

I'd absolutely reccomend sending feedback to GW, but I'd definitely consider the tone and manner in which it is presented.  It needs to be taken seriously alongside any amount of generally positive feedback they're receiving on the design (which at least locally is a lot), and "extreme negativity and direct accusations of malice and incompetence" feel likely to be ignored to me.  

Best solution IMO would be proper digital releases, but currently we seem to be tracking away from that as well...

[Nizrah]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

I would encourage you to read again the OP (and others in the topic in fact) and then maybe retract your comment?

I know that english isn't my native but the OP have problem with font size, i'm right? So the letters are to small to read which means his eyesight is bad. The right glasses should correct it? Or what im missing? 

[Christopher Rowe]

6 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

I know that english isn't my native but the OP have problem with font size, i'm right? So the letters are to small to read which means his eyesight is bad. The right glasses should correct it? Or what im missing? 

There are a very great many vision problems which glasses only partially correct or don't touch at all. 

[Marcvs]

20 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

I know that english isn't my native but the OP have problem with font size, i'm right? So the letters are to small to read which means his eyesight is bad. The right glasses should correct it? Or what im missing? 

the confused face on the other answer probably means you need to hear this twice: yes, there several types of vision impairements which cannot be corrected by glasses. Before dismissing other people's health conditions in the future, I would suggest to at least consider the issue a bit more seriously.

[PiotrW]

1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

Maybe you should go to the ophthalmologist if you can't read it? 

See, this is exactly the kind of answer I keep hearing whenever this issue comes up. And I find it annoying and, frankly, disrespectful.

Yes, I do have issues with my eyesight and I've been wearing glasses all my life. And there is a possibility that, as I get older, my eyes are getting weaker. Still, my eyesight isn't really that bad and I do know my limits. And I'm pretty sure that, when I have trouble reading the print on the warscroll cards and in GH2021, it's not just because I'm getting poor-sighted, but because that print is objectively too small.

There is an actual science to these things, you know? Talk to any book editor / designer who knows their stuff and they'll tell you that there are recommended limits on font size, fonts known to be easy on the eyes etc. It's not like an average human being can read anything and it's just unfortunate poor-sighted people who have problems. Sometimes, the print is just too small, period.

I invite you to take GH2021, go to a mainstream bookstore and compare the print in GH2021 to the novels there. I'm willing to bet you won't find any novel with such a small print. And there's a reason for that...

42 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Me and everyone I know who bought the book thought the form factor and design were excellent - the best version of this sort of book put out yet. 

Incidentally, I'll agree with that: aside from the font size issue, the design is really cool. I'd be happy to compliment GW for that. It's just... I can't read the darned thing 😵 Similarly, I'd love to use the warscroll cards - instead of printing warscrolls myself. But again, I just can't decipher them due to the font. Good idea, good design, but zero practical usability for me.

And the apps... ack, the apps. If GW implements a zoom feature in them (it wasn't there when I checked and is still not there the last I've heard) or font choice option, I'll subscribe to Warhammer+ immediately. But with the apps being as they are... *sigh* I asked my friend to install them on a tablet - and even there, the font stayed the same as on my phone. If anyone has some idea how to make these apps run with a bigger font, I'll be glad to hear it...

50 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

I'd absolutely reccomend sending feedback to GW, but I'd definitely consider the tone and manner in which it is presented.  It needs to be taken seriously alongside any amount of generally positive feedback they're receiving on the design (which at least locally is a lot), and "extreme negativity and direct accusations of malice and incompetence" feel likely to be ignored to me. 

I took the time today to raise the issue (politely) on GW's online chat. I'll be also sending an e-mail with my feedback to them. I'll definitely try to be polite and constructive - I know how this works, I actually work in customer service and talk to clients. I know that even negative feedback gets treated seriously, if it's not full of... colourful language

55 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Best solution IMO would be proper digital releases, but currently we seem to be tracking away from that as well...

True - and that's a part of the problem... It removes an option from people - and some people *need* such an option to use these products at all.

[EccentricCircle]

55 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

I know that english isn't my native but the OP have problem with font size, i'm right? So the letters are to small to read which means his eyesight is bad. The right glasses should correct it? Or what im missing? 

I'll add to what others have said... Those of us with a visual impairment have generally been going to ophthalmologists on and off for years. I need to regularly get glasses prescribed for general short sightedness, have my retina photographed to make sure there hasn't been any further macula degeneration, and take the eye test to see whether there has been any improvement to the size of letters I can read (which might allow me to drive if I ever pass it).

So even if you meant it in good faith, when you say "why not visit an ophthalmologist", our response is generally going to be *Heavy sarcasm* "Really? You don't think we've already thought of that?"

Disabled people know our disabilities, so suggestions which haven't been thought through comes across as very flippant and disrespectful.

Its not just strangers on the internet though. I've literally had the customer service people for software I use for work say "We don't have accessibility settings, but recommend you change the text size on your computer!" They thought they were offering a useful suggestion, and I'm sure they were just trying to help, but... *Heavy sarcasm* "Well, sure, how do you think I use a computer in the first place!"

[Golub87]

6 hours ago, Marc Wilson said:

I totally agree. I called this out on twitter and playtester-in-chief  @Lhw said my eyesight must be going because of onanism rather than taking the issue seriously. 

I am sorry, is this some sort of an inside joke or is that what actually happened - as in, twitter account related to GW mocked you online for your impairment?!?

[yukishiro1]

It's also not even about whether you can physically read it. Small and difficult to read fonts put greater pressure on the eyes, leading to eye strain. Even if you can physically make it out with the help of glasses, that doesn't mean there's no problem with the chosen font size. 

It's 2021, we know a lot about this stuff now, there's no real reason to be releasing such accessibility-unfriendly stuff. GW's a company worth billions now, if it doesn't understand accessibility itself, its pockets are easily deep enough to dip into to hire a consultant to teach them about it.

 

[Bayul]

1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

Or what im missing? 

It's about typography. Several factors contribute to the readability of a document and font size is a significant one.

 

[KaptainWalrus]

I'm confused what people actually want GW to do here.   Which of these has a greater burden; a company producing multiple different versions of a single book, in multiple languages, with different sized texts for each language; or the reader getting a better pair of glasses, or a magnifying lens?

I have never before heard anyone complain about the size of the text in GW books before.  And it seems rather strange that somehow the burden is on GW here. By that logic, shouldn't all copies of the books also be printed in braille, and all rules text also come with an audio version?

My grandmother has been reading the newspaper for decades.  That has some of the smallest print in the world, and she makes due by keeping a magnifying lens near her reading table.  I've never heard her call and complain at the newspaper company for not making the text bigger.

I'm not trying to disparage or degrade anyone for a deficiency or disability, I just don't see how it's GW's job to take every possible disability into account here, especially when the end user likely has this same issue with any printed publication, and their solution is so much cheaper and easier than any solution GW would have to come up with.

 

[yukishiro1]

If you're still confused, you didn't read the thread (or didn't pay attention to what you were reading), and I don't think anybody is going to be able to dispel your confusion more than they already have. Magnifying glasses and better pairs of glasses are not the issue here, nor the solution. 

The reason nobody's complained about it before (which is not actually true, but we'll go with it) is that they changed the format for GHB2021. It's not the same as it was in GHB2020 or prior GW publications. It's smaller, with smaller margins (well, I don't know if they're actually smaller, but they're more crowded, therefore they don't function as margins as well any more), and smaller text. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Nizrah]

Well, if noone complained about it ealier how would they know thats there is a problem?

[Acrozatarim]

2 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Well, if noone complained about it ealier how would they know thats there is a problem?

User friendliness and accessibility are aspects of product design that GW absolutely should have their layout and style folks focusing on and tackling long before issues reach customers.

[yukishiro1]

4 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Well, if noone complained about it ealier how would they know thats there is a problem?

GW's worth billions. Companies in this value bracket should be sophisticated enough to anticipate the possibility that reducing the size of a book is going to cause accessibility issues for their customers, and to investigate it. 

A lot of people act like GW is still five guys in grandma's basement. It isn't. It's a multinational company worth around 5 billion last time I checked. They should be held to the standards of companies in that bracket. Considering accessibility isn't like being an expert in quantum mechanics, it's standard in the publishing industry and has been for some time. It shouldn't be taking them by surprise that people are having trouble reading the book, and if it is, that shows they need to take the publishing side of things a bit more seriously. 

[Nizrah]

8 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

User friendliness and accessibility are aspects of product design that GW absolutely should have their layout and style folks focusing on and tackling long before issues reach customers.

Why? I bet that 99% of people didin't even notice that font was changed 

[pnkdth]

8 minutes ago, KaptainWalrus said:

I'm confused what people actually want GW to do here.   Which of these has a greater burden; a company producing multiple different versions of a single book, in multiple languages, with different sized texts for each language; or the reader getting a better pair of glasses, or a magnifying lens?

I have never before heard anyone complain about the size of the text in GW books before.  And it seems rather strange that somehow the burden is on GW here. By that logic, shouldn't all copies of the books also be printed in braille, and all rules text also come with an audio version?

My grandmother has been reading the newspaper for decades.  That has some of the smallest print in the world, and she makes due by keeping a magnifying lens near her reading table.  I've never heard her call and complain at the newspaper company for not making the text bigger.

I'm not trying to disparage or degrade anyone for a deficiency or disability, I just don't see how it's GW's job to take every possible disability into account here, especially when the end user likely has this same issue with any printed publication, and their solution is so much cheaper and easier than any solution GW would have to come up with.

 

There are a lot things to consider when creating a document like the GHB21. There are certain colours and typefaces which are better or worse for different purposes. There's a lot you can do with character spacing alone, for example. Most people go past this without thinking, certain text just flows different and is easier to read. 

As for the general design of the GHB, I've heard a lot of good stuff. It is practical, everything is easy to find, and so on. So in terms of additional work, there's isn't much additional work to make it even better (as in easier to read/easier on the eyes). In other words, the changes would not be drastic, it would simply be an improvement which would be felt by all. I mean, who here would say no to better designed books?

[Golub87]

20 minutes ago, KaptainWalrus said:

I'm confused what people actually want GW to do here. 

 

For example, have books in the electronic format where background noise can be turned off and where you can have a font option (not many, just so you can change the font to something that is super crisp) would probably be sufficient.

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, there are people who literally do this - visual design, with a focus on accessibility - for their careers. It's not some weird, arcane, unknown branch of theology. There's a reason that novels don't look like newspapers (and that newspapers today don't generally look like newspapers of 50 or 100 years ago). We've learned a lot about what's easy to read and what isn't. GW doesn't operate in some parallel universe where none of this knowledge is accessible. Asking them to pay a little more attention to making their books easier for people to read doesn't seem unreasonable. 

[PiotrW]

19 minutes ago, KaptainWalrus said:

I'm confused what people actually want GW to do here.   Which of these has a greater burden; a company producing multiple different versions of a single book, in multiple languages, with different sized texts for each language; or the reader getting a better pair of glasses, or a magnifying lens?

Uhm..,. the company's? Because they are making the product and it's both their duty and in their best interest to design products that can be used comfortably by as many customers as possible?

Also, let me rephrase what you just said:

"I'm confused what these wheelchair-bound people want the city council to do. Which of these has a greater burden: a city which has so many services to spend money for already and will have trouble finding funds for adding all that wheelchair-friendly infrastructure - or the wheelchair users who can simply find a wheelchair model that works well in a city enviroment?"

I apologize any wheelchair-bound people who read this: it's not my intent to say my eyesight problems are the same burden as not being able to walk. I'm just trying to show similarities in thinking...

28 minutes ago, KaptainWalrus said:

I have never before heard anyone complain about the size of the text in GW books before.  And it seems rather strange that somehow the burden is on GW here. By that logic, shouldn't all copies of the books also be printed in braille, and all rules text also come with an audio version?

Actually, I noted earlier in this thread that I *could* use earlier GW books. Yeah, I wasn't happy with the font size, but I learned to live with it. The problem with GH2021 is that the font is much, much smaller than in those earlier books. Have you actually seen that book?

As for audiobooks etc... uhm, actually, yes - one of the reasons audiobooks are popular is because blind people can use them. And good publishers think of such stuff.

34 minutes ago, KaptainWalrus said:

I'm not trying to disparage or degrade anyone for a deficiency or disability, I just don't see how it's GW's job to take every possible disability into account here, especially when the end user likely has this same issue with any printed publication, and their solution is so much cheaper and easier than any solution GW would have to come up with.

Taking "every possible disability" into account would probably be impossible. But moving toward that is desirable. Also, not printing books in a font size used for medical leaflets is not "taking every disability into account". It's simply following the common sense and *what is known about human physiology*. Please, read on book design and publishing industry's good practices.

As for "cheaper and easier solution"... riiiiiiiiiiiight. 🤨

[Christopher Rowe]

23 minutes ago, Golub87 said:

For example, have books in the electronic format where background noise can be turned off and where you can have a font option (not many, just so you can change the font to something that is super crisp) would probably be sufficient.

This is absolutely the easiest solution for books already published. They should make all the rules, at the very least, available in a form that allows resizing and font choice. Such books would also be much easier to enable text to speech on.

For what's it worth, I wrote a respectful but clearly worded email to the customer service email provided upthread.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Christopher Rowe

[KaptainWalrus]

49 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

If you're still confused, you didn't read the thread (or didn't pay attention to what you were reading), and I don't think anybody is going to be able to dispel your confusion more than they already have. Magnifying glasses and better pairs of glasses are not the issue here, nor the solution. 

The reason nobody's complained about it before (which is not actually true, but we'll go with it) is that they changed the format for GHB2021. It's not the same as it was in GHB2020 or prior GW publications. It's smaller, with smaller margins (well, I don't know if they're actually smaller, but they're more crowded, therefore they don't function as margins as well any more), and smaller text. 

Perhaps you would do better to read my response?   I'm not confused about the initial complaint.  Rather what GW should do about that.  Since you didn't really address the point I made about the burden involved, I'll assume you have no suggestion.

[KaptainWalrus]

22 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

As for "cheaper and easier solution"... riiiiiiiiiiiight. 🤨

https://www.amazon.com/yueton-Magnifying-Magnifier-Fresnel-Reading/dp/B01KA26RCW/ref=asc_df_B01KA26RCW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198068753909&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13113829632120900181&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9024601&hvtargid=pla-391964536523&psc=1

 

Amazing....a $7 solution for you

 

 

And this is no way comparable to a town adding wheelchair ramps for people who can't walk.  Access to civic buildings and fictional books about toy soldiers, are not equivalent.

Edited July 6, 2021 by KaptainWalrus