AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, The_Dudemeister said:

This is something that I also immediately noticed. We essentially play games with what would be around 1650 points lists in the old codex. While there are some potent additional defensive buffs, they do not make up for the many wounds we lost. Especially not against shooting, charge impact hits and getting double turned.

 

What we did get however is much better healing of units that haven't been wiped. That brings us to an interesting conundrum. Wave of Terror wants to shoehorn us into a pure MSU playstyle, while the lethality of the game and our good resurrection clearly ask for reinforced units. There is no good middle ground so we need to find out what is the overall better approach.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of our experimental journey with the new battletome, a unit of 30 Chainrasps becomes one of the tournament-staples that we build around. I kinda hope not as I would like a different playstyle for me personally. And in the old battletome, 30 Chainrasps and 20 Reapers were the core of my builds that virtually never let me down. And those 2 units almost didn't change at all, except that they can be supported, defended and healed even better and do a tad more damage. So I'm hoping more than anything else, that I can play around all the other cool new toys and tricks instead of sticking to the ol' reliable.

 

If I were to guess at it in this early days of the faction, I'd say we're shifting focus away from heroes and on to troops, and may well be using our hero slots for cheap ones to get WoT procs with.

My take on the results coming in so far are pretty much in line with @dmorley21. Though I am more biased against Hammer and Anvil style play, I think he is completely correct that we need a threat unit that's reinforced. Whether we use it as an anvil, or as a distractionary threat unit, we need something that is menacing on the table that can absorb hits. Reapers do seem to be a good pick for this, but so does a unit of Bladegheists in Scarlet Doom.

To fit more troop choices electing for cheaper heroes might be the way to go. If their only purpose is to return models and aid in WoT procs, that might be the meta. Big units like Olynder, Kurdoss, or the Black Coach may or may not be just too big of point sinks unless you're using Olynder with Spirit Tether to be a hyper-aggressive nuisance.

Lastly, between the Processions, right now I am leaning toward Scarlet Doom as our "all comers" candidate. My reasoning here is that Emerald Host is amazing if you happen to roll 4 Emerald Curses, or maybe 3, but it sharply drops off in usefulness with only 2. The reason being is that the Curse only procs at end of the battleround, so at max 5 times and more likely only 3 or 4. And, it only works as long as your cursed targets are alive and you chose good targets, AND can also not proc at all if you roll a 1, AND ALSO your opponent can defeat the whole thing if they can put your target into reserves after the start of the game. Lots of variables. In contrast Scarlet Doom only asks that you load up on Bladegheists, which most of us would want to do anyway, and keep the units in relatively good health for each charge phase. Yes, you could whiff the rolls, but with 3 or 4 units of BGs charging every turn, the option to point those charges at targets of your choosing as the game unfolds, and that the impact damage doesn't care about how many actually can pile in and attack, I think the damage potential might be in favor for Scarlett Doom.

It may just boil down to the opponent army type. If you know or are guessing on facing gods or large single-unit threats, Emerald Host may be the way to go, and in contrast Scarlet Doom for everything else. But, if you are pretty good at misdirection and getting your troops where you want them to be then Scarlet Doom may still be better against those gods and large single-unit threats. Do you want 1-2 mortals spread across the board, or 5-6 focused on a unit or two of your choice (and in range)?

[dmorley21]

Further to @EnixLHQ, it will be really interesting to see what each legion excels at playing. 

Scarlet Doom is the go to right now, because it produces mortals, is an all-comers subfaction, and honestly is the easiest subfaction to play. 

Emerald Host is the second most popular from what I have seen, and can do a little work against anyone. Generally, I think it's the weakest but is still good. 

Quicksilver is overlooked right now, but really good against Nurgle or Cities of Sigmar that feature Phoenix Guard/Phoenixes or maybe even other Nighthaunt lists. If Sylvaneth get wards from Wyldwoods or Overgrown terrain and another ward save faction joins the meta... I could see it having legs. Right now it's a bit too specific. 

Honestly though, I think Grieving Legion is hands down the best subfaction. It's just awful to play and to play against. But as someone who's run into Hosts Duplicitous Tzeentch a few times... that's crazy powerful. It's also one of the main reasons that Krondspine is getting so much attention. With our deployment shenanigans, you can just trap an entire army. I haven't seen anyone run it yet, and it'll be an absolute grind, but darn I think it's got legs. 

 

[Causalis]

Any recommendations as to how we should approach being given the first turn against shooty armies? Just deepstrike as much as we can 9" away and hope to make some charges? Because I just don't see us fairing well against 60 Sentinels or Bowsnakes + Morathi etc. 

What are your thoughts on the Spirit Torment? His healing seems really nice, but is he worth taking on his own, without the Chainghasts? 

As I predicted, we already see that 10-ghost-units are too fragile since we want them to survive in order to bring back models with Lady O etc. But I also think that MSU of Chainrasps can work as screens, speedbumps or to absorb unfavorable charges so that our important units can counter charge. 

For a TAC list I would probably always recommend taking Emerald Host. Soooo many armies rely on small heroes to provide buff-bubbles and synergies and having the chance to kill these by just playing this Legion is huge. I'm thinking Warchanters, Carthallas, Blue Scribes, DoK heroes that aren't Morathi, Knight Incantors and many, many more. 

I also loooove that our close combat heroes like KoS, Lord Executioners etc are actually decent in melee (looking at you, all of my useless Khorne heroes!) AND give the added benefit of stacking WoT charges. So often I find myself grumbling because I would only take those heroes for their buffs but paying points for their perceived "fightyness", even though they almost never see combat. 

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

Further to @EnixLHQ, it will be really interesting to see what each legion excels at playing. 

Scarlet Doom is the go to right now, because it produces mortals, is an all-comers subfaction, and honestly is the easiest subfaction to play. 

Emerald Host is the second most popular from what I have seen, and can do a little work against anyone. Generally, I think it's the weakest but is still good. 

Quicksilver is overlooked right now, but really good against Nurgle or Cities of Sigmar that feature Phoenix Guard/Phoenixes or maybe even other Nighthaunt lists. If Sylvaneth get wards from Wyldwoods or Overgrown terrain and another ward save faction joins the meta... I could see it having legs. Right now it's a bit too specific. 

Honestly though, I think Grieving Legion is hands down the best subfaction. It's just awful to play and to play against. But as someone who's run into Hosts Duplicitous Tzeentch a few times... that's crazy powerful. It's also one of the main reasons that Krondspine is getting so much attention. With our deployment shenanigans, you can just trap an entire army. I haven't seen anyone run it yet, and it'll be an absolute grind, but darn I think it's got legs. 

 

Yeah, Grieving Legion would be our technical/tactical Procession for sure. I'd love to run it against a Cities of Sigmar list, or another army that likes to redeploy or has retreat shenanigans. But I also think it's will likely require a high level of chess-like moves in order to really pull it off. I think with effective use it will be our elite procession, but won't be as plug-n-play as the others.

I do want to see some sweaty IQ9000 plays with the Procession, though.

[Darkrich]

Grieving legion would be great in the mirror

[EnixLHQ]

9 hours ago, Causalis said:

Any recommendations as to how we should approach being given the first turn against shooty armies? Just deepstrike as much as we can 9" away and hope to make some charges? Because I just don't see us fairing well against 60 Sentinels or Bowsnakes + Morathi etc. 

What are your thoughts on the Spirit Torment? His healing seems really nice, but is he worth taking on his own, without the Chainghasts? 

As I predicted, we already see that 10-ghost-units are too fragile since we want them to survive in order to bring back models with Lady O etc. But I also think that MSU of Chainrasps can work as screens, speedbumps or to absorb unfavorable charges so that our important units can counter charge. 

For a TAC list I would probably always recommend taking Emerald Host. Soooo many armies rely on small heroes to provide buff-bubbles and synergies and having the chance to kill these by just playing this Legion is huge. I'm thinking Warchanters, Carthallas, Blue Scribes, DoK heroes that aren't Morathi, Knight Incantors and many, many more. 

I also loooove that our close combat heroes like KoS, Lord Executioners etc are actually decent in melee (looking at you, all of my useless Khorne heroes!) AND give the added benefit of stacking WoT charges. So often I find myself grumbling because I would only take those heroes for their buffs but paying points for their perceived "fightyness", even though they almost never see combat. 

I'll bite.

• How to deal with shooty armies when given the first turn.
  • You'll be able to use Vanishing Phantasms to pick up to 3 units and stash them in reserve. You've got 3 "end of movement phases" to figure out what to do with them. Deploy specifically to bait your opponent to line up their shooty units in response, and then poof those units away and place them somewhere safer.
  • You'll have your Hero phase, so Shademist and Seal of Shyish are mandatory. Discorporate for a command point when a unit is targeted is also pretty much needed. In terms of damage mitigation, Shademist should result in less wounds overall than the 5+ ward, so that would go on your most important unit, and then delegate as you see fit. They can work in tandem, too, so Shademist and 5+ ward on the same unit is fine if you really need it to survive.
  • You'll also have the option to take an endless spell. Prismatic Palisade is still a solid choice to block line of sight from shooty units. Place it as close as possible to the enemy unit to maximize their blocked field of view.
  • Or, if you worry your heroes or tanky units are going to be damaged, getting a Terminexus out and in heal mode will put wounds back into every multi-wound unit in range.
  • You'll have your movement phase. We move 8 almost army-wide, which means a run of 9-14. If you need to run a unit out of your opponent's move and shoot range, I don't see a problem making that choice as long as you're not in full retreat as an army. Remember that the name of the game is capping objectives and then denying your opponent objectives, so you don't need to camp them in firing range. Get them and then get out, but also don't let your opponent take them over.
  • Charge phase is tricky thanks to Unleash Hell and some army's equivalent abilities. As far as Unleash Hell goes, you can shut it down in a couple of ways. First, if you force a Redeploy command on an enemy unit they cannot also shoot with Unleash Hell, per the FAQs. So if you can bait a unit into that via your movement you have some protection. You can also force your opponent into a bad usage of Unleash Hell by charging the shooty enemy unit with a chaff unit first, and then double up by charging with your killy unit after. Unleash Hell can only be used if the unit receiving the command is NOT within 3" of 2+ enemy units, so if they don't use the CA on your chaff they lose the ability to use it at all. And if they do use it on your chaff, they also lost the choice to use it at all anywhere else that phase.
  • Combat phase is pretty self-explanatory, I think. Kill the unit, or kill it enough for battleshock to do the rest.
• I feel like the Spirit Torment is an auto-include. It could be argued he is interchangeable with a Guardian of Souls if you are not bringing Chainghasts as a point tax, but I'd counter-argue that the Spirit Torment is uninterruptable. I'd bring two if I expected a lot of casualties. Or a ST and GoS. Basically, I think we kind of need them.
• I don't agree that MSUs, or minimums in this case, are a bad thing. They are only bad if those units are being focused on, or they are rolling excellently, or you are rolling poorly.  When comparing the other 3.0 books, 10-man units should hold up just fine with an occasional reinforcement. When comparing against 2.0 books is where we start feeling like we need to max our our reinforcements. That being said, if you can purposely draw fire against a specific unit or two of yours, then for sure reinforce those and shove them into the face of your enemy, and then MSU the hell out of everything else. And remember to ABC, always be charging. Even with heroes. Especially with heroes.
• Emerald Host and Scarlet Doom are going to be our "one list-all comers" Processions, as they stand the highest chance of being useful no matter what your opponent brings. However, the other Processions will be more useful if you can tailor them against your opponent or local meta. As always, NH is the techiest of the tech armies. That being said, Emerald Host does chip damage on 2-4 units up to 5 times for 1-3 mortals each or 2-4 if it's a monster. Scarlet Doom, in contrast, will do 0-10+ mortals (depending on unit size) as many times as you can charge, and you can elect new targets for that damage during the course of the game, and you are bringing your native 4attack/3+/3+/-1/1 damage profile along with it.
• Even our non-combat heroes are still great for this. By charging with your heroes first, you have started the ball rolling on the WoT procs. We still want that 10 at least once, so it's good to have more chances, but even if we don't a fair few -hit will make it easier to keep those heroes alive, and if you are lucky enough to get a few -saves, well then that unit will hopefully not be around long enough to damage them too much. Also, attack with the most important units first, be they hero or troop. Good opponents tend to wound the units that still have combats left.

Edited May 17, 2022 by EnixLHQ

[Dogmantra]

6 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

With no time limit on the ambush, you can gauge that safety as you see fit, though obviously a unit in ambush is doing nothing else for you.

Worth remembering that this is because they moved the time limit into the core rules. But even so, you're almost certainly going to find a use for your ambush models before the start of round 4. Rest of the post seems like really solid advice too

[Arzalyn]

Just wanted to add that after 5 games with Emerald Host I agree with what you re saying, when you roll high it is kinda good, but when you roll low it is really worthless. If deathstarts based around small buffing heroes came back to the meta I can imagine it becoming more interesting, but right now I may selling point is if you don't to focus you list around Bladegheists, Harridans or Reinforced Chainrasp/Reaper units. Honestly I even if for a list that take 2x of any on those options the other sub-allegiances already look more interesting.

About the grieving legions, Maybe something like this could work as base list? In composition it fells similar to the lists I used to see in 2.0:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Procession: Grieving Legion
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthisrty

Leaders
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (150)
- General
Spirit Torment (115)
Dreadblade Harrow (145)
Krulghast Cruciator (140)

Battleline
20 x Chainrasp (220)
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Chainrasp  (220)
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Grimghast Reapers (320)
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Grimghast Reapers (320)
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Spirit Hosts (125)

Units
4 x Myrmourn Banshees (105)
2 x Chainghasts (95)

Total: 1955 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 118
Drops: 12
 

I think the 2x 20 Chainrasp and 20 Reapers blocks should be the backbones of the list, as Reapers are our best 20 model "hammer" unit and the chainrasps the cheapest horde. The remaining points could go to Leader and support pieces, which should be choosen based in what you think you will face. I think the Guardian, Torment and Spirit host would be the next "auto include" for a list similar to this, as they give it extra resilience, which this legion favor with its reinforced units.

In particular, the interesting support/tech pieces I think could work for it: The Krulghast and Banshees are both are effective, but they depend on how much damage 2+ and spell casting is present. I like the Chainghasts as a way to give the +1 to hit to the reapers and chairasps, as well as another adding to the WoT as a cheap and small unit. The Dreadblade I imagine can be valuable as a way to give two units the 5+ ward, as well as giving the two reapers units the +1 to hit with the all out attack.

[EnixLHQ]

23 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Worth remembering that this is because they moved the time limit into the core rules. But even so, you're almost certainly going to find a use for your ambush models before the start of round 4. Rest of the post seems like really solid advice too

I always get tripped up by them hiding these in the core book now. I'll edit.

[EnixLHQ]

8 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

Just wanted to add that after 5 games with Emerald Host I agree with what you re saying, when you roll high it is kinda good, but when you roll low it is really worthless. If deathstarts based around small buffing heroes came back to the meta I can imagine it becoming more interesting, but right now I may selling point is if you don't to focus you list around Bladegheists, Harridans or Reinforced Chainrasp/Reaper units. Honestly I even if for a list that take 2x of any on those options the other sub-allegiances already look more interesting.

About the grieving legions, Maybe something like this could work as base list? In composition it fells similar to the lists I used to see in 2.0:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Procession: Grieving Legion
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthisrty

Leaders
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (150)
- General
Spirit Torment (115)
Dreadblade Harrow (145)
Krulghast Cruciator (140)

Battleline
20 x Chainrasp (220)
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Chainrasp  (220)
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Grimghast Reapers (320)
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Grimghast Reapers (320)
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Spirit Hosts (125)

Units
4 x Myrmourn Banshees (105)
2 x Chainghasts (95)

Total: 1955 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 118
Drops: 12
 

I think the 2x 20 Chainrasp and 20 Reapers blocks should be the backbones of the list, as Reapers are our best 20 model "hammer" unit and the chainrasps the cheapest horde. The remaining points could go to Leader and support pieces, which should be choosen based in what you think you will face. I think the Guardian, Torment and Spirit host would be the next "auto include" for a list similar to this, as they give it extra resilience, which this legion favor with its reinforced units.

In particular, the interesting support/tech pieces I think could work for it: The Krulghast and Banshees are both are effective, but they depend on how much damage 2+ and spell casting is present. I like the Chainghasts as a way to give the +1 to hit to the reapers and chairasps, as well as another adding to the WoT as a cheap and small unit. The Dreadblade I imagine can be valuable as a way to give two units the 5+ ward, as well as giving the two reapers units the +1 to hit with the all out attack.

If I know I'm going to go up against an army that is wholly dependant on their heroes like we were in our last book, I'd go Emerald Host every time, with a Scriptor Mortis as a cherry on top. Can you imagine what 3.0 Nighthaunt would do to 2.0 Nighthaunt like that?

But then again, Quicksilver Dead would dismantle 2.0 Nighthaunt, too. So would Grieving Legion. Well, I mean, 3.0 NH would table 2.0 NH without any Procession at all and a stiff wind, so I guess that's not a great example.

[Neck-Romantic]

Hoo boy.

Assembling a Krulghast is a mite scary for those of us with large hands that sometimes shake. 

Trying to trim moldlines on his hands and fiddly bits with an exacto had me sweatin bullets

[That Guy]

14 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I do want to see some sweaty IQ9000 plays with the Procession, though.

And we have so much options to explore to do this too. I feel in the end the Dreadblade Harrows might play a big role into this, although I think they might get FAQ'd. Right now you can just spam dreadblade harrows and get an infinite amount of discorporate, death incarnate, boat teleports, redeploys and all out attacks, etc. For the cost of a dreadblade harrow, who in its own is not half bad in combat and can teleport shenanigan constantly. Being able to echo for no CP is incredibly strong when used correctly. The biggest weakness of this is your general dying, so if you do this, play it with Olynder/Nagash and an unnamed general, so that you have 2 generals to count on. 

Another interesting one is literally being the most annoying player when it comes to CP control. You can play Olynder, Kurdoss and a Tomb Banshee. This could in turn mean that Kurdoss could steal CP at the start of the turn, Olynder has a chance to shut down command abilities issued, while it states that it will still cost CP, this is where the tomb banshee comes in, basically having a chance to make command abilities cost 2CP. If you also play grieving legion, you can tie down an entire army and there's a good chance they'll get to use limited command abilities, while occassionally you get to use more, because you steal CP. I think it might be one of our most obnoxious builds to play against.

I still haven't seen many people try to make a burst damage build, I think I might try to after next weekend. We actually have a few options to get a high cast off like with the midnight tome and reikenors candles. Combine it with Olynder and perhaps a scriptor mortis under the emerald host and you might just be able to setup a giant nuke of mortal wounds with the terminatus nexus. Add in a black coach, some hexwraiths. and mortals will flow left and right. 

I saw the mention of the pallisade, which remembers me of how I once absolutely destroyed a Behemat army once with my ossiarch. We played a scenerio with a bunch of chokepoints, and he wanted to engage me, so I dropped the pallisade about 3" away from me inside the chokepoint. While gargants can manoeuvre over them they can't end their move on them. Same goes for other units of course. We are ghosts can we can flank easily and get to places easily, so doing these things won't hinder us too much. Using Awlrach in this case could then pull your unit away next turn, while you made him waste a potential 2 turns of movements. We have so much movement shenanigans, the bamboozle factor is turned to 11 if you play it well. Combo it with perhaps a KoS and you can redeploy as well, if they find an angle.

I think this book will be one of the most interesting to solve and I don't know if we'll get that done as fast as most other factions. But the fact we have such a big toolbox means our skill ceiling is a lot higher too. I'm sure for the first couple of tournaments some unga bunga builds will reign supreme, but I think eventually we might see some interesting gimmicky lists show up. The potential.... is crazy. We might not be Beastclaw raiders in terms of straight up damage potential, but boy, we are the main protagonist of a FromSoftware title as a faction. Master it and we can topple any of the top lists I would say:

All you guys: 

There's a reason why we have these hand poses on some of our units: 

Spoiler

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by That Guy

[Gitzdee]

25 minutes ago, That Guy said:

There's a reason why we have these hand poses on some of our units: 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

[NotWhiteFang]

Feels like you either have a focus on mass troops with fewer heroes, or you go hero hammer with loads of buff pieces so everything is on 2s/2s. 

The true power in Emerald Host is the flexibility when it comes to list building. Toss random units together and you just grab Emerald Host. The other 3 are forcing you down a certain path. You dont *have* to spam Harridans in QSD but you certainly want a couple of units. Same with SD, you certainly want to max out on the impact benefits. 

GG in 20s are looking kinda hot with their 2" reach and a focus on battleline/hordes in GHB22. I could see myself running 20 BGR + 20 BGR + 20 GG in SD.

[Rors]

@That Guy
I just tried out a list with 4 dreadblades and even though I lost my general early oh boy are they good. I deep struck Reikenor then teleported 4 of them up on one flank. My general issued charge reroll on himself on the other flank then one harrow handed it to Reikenor and the others used it on themselves. Caught the other player off guard and punched a hole in a flank he thought was safe. Four is overkill but spamming CP is so good. It's not just how effective the extra CP is either, repeating a command breaks core rules in a very powerful way.

I think a unit that's flying under the radar currently might be the executioner. He's got an okay profile and more importantly, he gives out -1 to wound at the start of the combat phase. Outside our own GoS +1 to wound is a lot harder to find then +1 to hit, it's a great defense tool, especially since it work in every combat phase. Buddy him with another combat character and some spirit host and you'll probably get a lot of milage.

 

[That Guy]

18 minutes ago, Rors said:

@That Guy
I just tried out a list with 4 dreadblades and even though I lost my general early oh boy are they good. I deep struck Reikenor then teleported 4 of them up on one flank. My general issued charge reroll on himself on the other flank then one harrow handed it to Reikenor and the others used it on themselves. Caught the other player off guard and punched a hole in a flank he thought was safe. Four is overkill but spamming CP is so good. It's not just how effective the extra CP is either, repeating a command breaks core rules in a very powerful way.

I think a unit that's flying under the radar currently might be the executioner. He's got an okay profile and more importantly, he gives out -1 to wound at the start of the combat phase. Outside our own GoS +1 to wound is a lot harder to find then +1 to hit, it's a great defense tool, especially since it work in every combat phase. Buddy him with another combat character and some spirit host and you'll probably get a lot of milage.

 

You can have a whole bunch of -1 to wound and some -1 to hit (through WoT). The to wound debuff can originate from Shademist spell, Harridans or the Lord executioner. You can combine them all and get a crazy debuff army. The Lord executioner is probably best against combat heroes / monsters. Its improved ward including the debuff can keep him save. If you would charge say a frostlord on stonehorn, you can combo it with several WoT charges and perhaps reduce save by 1-2 and strike first. Than he will chunk people down. It's too bad his debuff can only target a single unit, it once again implies that it wants to focus down a single target, but for those points, i'd rather have seen something like a harridan deathshriek on him without the charge needed. We already know from the Frostheart Phoenix that a -1 to wound aura can be rather powerful. This would've solidified his position, but as of now...  he has a very niche use. He is right inbetween characters like Reikenor, Awlrach, Even Kurdoss, Guardian of Souls and on the low side KoS and Spirit Torment. In many cases the added value of the utility those other units offer, is just much more desired. BUT! He is probably our lowest point hammer hero with a very solid combat statline, he tries to make sure he survives himself rather well, but the debuff can benefit other units you bring with him. I think he might have surprising value against god tier characters for example. If you can get a petrify off or a Soul cage, you can charge him in together with a unit of bladegheist for example. You fight and can absolutely chunk them down, with your all around 3+ 3+ statline on both those units(which you'll buff further... right?) Meanwhile you absolutely smack through those high save values with your sweet rend and stun results and when they get to hit back... hopefully dropped them the sweet -1 to hit and -1 to wound. This is wishful thinking though. Another thing about his debuff. It's probably the most reliable source of -1 to wound. Dreadscythe Harridans require you to charge( we are good at that but we can get charged first and suffer a cripple), Shademist requires a succesful not unbound spellcast, while with the lord executioner? You need to try to make sure he's within 3" range at the beginning of a combat phase. You can even have him chill next to a screen and make him act like a counter to charges on you. You always get to use his ability with a guaranteed trigger(unless they can shutdown abilities like this) if he can get into combat range. There's some value in that especially vs combat heavy armies/alpha strike armies.

[theophaniel]

13 minutes ago, That Guy said:

It's probably the most reliable source of -1 to wound.

I feel you forget about pendant of the fell wind, I feel it's one of our best items. Combined on a KoSoEs with say cloaked in shadow I feel it makes any unit a huge pain and even better at spreading that -1 to wound. I deals less damage but it is much trickier, with the free command point for All out Attack. You can clip both side of a unit with the KoSoEs and some chaff  and with the pile in in both direction they wont be able to effectively hit anything.

Edited May 17, 2022 by theophaniel

[That Guy]

2 hours ago, theophaniel said:

I feel you forget about pendant of the fell wind, I feel it's one of our best items. Combined on a KoSoEs with say cloaked in shadow I feel it makes any unit a huge pain and even better at spreading that -1 to wound. I deals less damage but it is much trickier, with the free command point for All out Attack. You can clip both side of a unit with the KoSoEs and some chaff  and with the pile in in both direction they wont be able to effectively hit anything.

Indeed i forgot it for a moment and it probably is by far our most reliable source of -1 to wound. Sadly it also costs an artefact slot and with our strong lore, often an arcane tome is much desired. With the combo of trait and artefact you showed though a KoS or KoSoEs will indeed be crazy durable especially with the option to heal and increase wounds characteristic. I think especially the KoSoEs is the perfect target for the pendant because of its footprint. Doesn’t take away that the Lord Executioner got a counter vs a charging unit built in though.

[dmorley21]

It's worth considering the replication of buffs and debuffs that we have available as an army. I feel like ones that appear multiple ways are likely ones that the rules writers planned on us taking advantage of - so it's something to keep in mind. 

-1 to Wound Rolls for Enemies

Shademist - a spell that makes a single unit of yours -1 to wound when targeted and lasts until your next hero phase. 

Harridans - make an enemy unit -1 to wound on the charge

Lord Executioner - make an enemy unit -1 to wound on the charge

Pendant of the Fell Wind - an artefact that provides a 3" aura of -1 to wound rolls for enemies

-1 to Hit Rolls

Wave of Terror - on a 4-7, but effectively on a 4+ if you want the -1 to hit effect

Grief-Stricken - Lady Olynder's warscroll spell that targets an enemy unit within 18". 

+1 to Hit Rolls

All-Out Attack - a generic command point, that is freely issued by Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed and can be replicated by a Dreadblade Harrow

Chainghasts - a unit that provides a wholly within 12" bubble of +1 to hit in melee as long as there's a Spirit Torment on the board

Grief-Stricken - Lady Olynder's warscroll spell that targets an enemy unit within 18". 

5+ Ward Saves

Discorporate - a faction command ability that changes ward saves from a 6+ to a 5+

Seal of Shyish - a spell that grants a unit a 5+ ward save wholly within 12" until the next hero phase

Nagash's Command Ability - adds 1 to ward rolls, effectively making generic NH ward rolls a 5+. Worth noting this can also work on the Lord Executioner, Lady Olynder, or the Black Coach to make them tankier. 

[Kadeton]

11 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

If I know I'm going to go up against an army that is wholly dependant on their heroes like we were in our last book, I'd go Emerald Host every time, with a Scriptor Mortis as a cherry on top. Can you imagine what 3.0 Nighthaunt would do to 2.0 Nighthaunt like that?

Sadly, we know exactly what a Scriptor Mortis would do to 2.0 Nighthaunt - absolutely nothing, because they're Death units.

[Benlisted]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

It's worth considering the replication of buffs and debuffs that we have available as an army. I feel like ones that appear multiple ways are likely ones that the rules writers planned on us taking advantage of - so it's something to keep in mind. 

Spoiler

-1 to Wound Rolls for Enemies

Shademist - a spell that makes a single unit of yours -1 to wound when targeted and lasts until your next hero phase. 

Harridans - make an enemy unit -1 to wound on the charge

Lord Executioner - make an enemy unit -1 to wound on the charge

Pendant of the Fell Wind - an artefact that provides a 3" aura of -1 to wound rolls for enemies

-1 to Hit Rolls

Wave of Terror - on a 4-7, but effectively on a 4+ if you want the -1 to hit effect

Grief-Stricken - Lady Olynder's warscroll spell that targets an enemy unit within 18". 

+1 to Hit Rolls

All-Out Attack - a generic command point, that is freely issued by Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed and can be replicated by a Dreadblade Harrow

Chainghasts - a unit that provides a wholly within 12" bubble of +1 to hit in melee as long as there's a Spirit Torment on the board

Grief-Stricken - Lady Olynder's warscroll spell that targets an enemy unit within 18". 

5+ Ward Saves

Discorporate - a faction command ability that changes ward saves from a 6+ to a 5+

Seal of Shyish - a spell that grants a unit a 5+ ward save wholly within 12" until the next hero phase

Nagash's Command Ability - adds 1 to ward rolls, effectively making generic NH ward rolls a 5+. Worth noting this can also work on the Lord Executioner, Lady Olynder, or the Black Coach to make them tankier. 

There's a few more actually though specific to units - Harridans get +1 to hit on their warscroll, coaches can give themselves a 5+ ward.  Discorporate can be replicated by a harrow too.

In terms of + to wound you have GoS, chainrasps charging, and harridans vs wounded enemies.

In terms of + to attack you have lightshard, and reapers and dreadblades on their warscrolls.

In terms of -1 damage, just the KC.

In terms of -1 save, just wave of terror.

[EnixLHQ]

50 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Sadly, we know exactly what a Scriptor Mortis would do to 2.0 Nighthaunt - absolutely nothing, because they're Death units.

And he'd still kick their ass. Dat quill tho

[Neck-Romantic]

I still say the Scriptor was supposed to be our first Priest

[Rors]

So our most common buff in the book is actually -1 to wound? That's interesting given how fragile this army is to getting double turned. So maybe the designers want a army that plays hyper aggressive with most of the list tech actually geared towards being evasive while doing so.

An overlapping field of -1 wound and 5+ wards would certainly go a long way to solving how much this armies special rules only benefit us in our own turn.

[aylien119]

Hi all,

First up, thanks to everyone for the thoughts and mini battle reports! It's been very helpful with brainstorming ghost lists, especially when covid makes it hard to actually play.

I had a question re: Bladegheists and Grimghast Reapers.

Why do some seem to prefer BG over GR?

I was trying to do some back of the napkin math to see how a unit of 10 BG compares against 10 GR VS a single model unit (ie, GR do NOT get their Reaped like Corn +1 attack)

BG

• BG have 1"range, 3 attacks on the charge, for a total of 15 attacks
• Of those 15
  • attack roll of 3 to 5 -> 15/2 successful hits
  • attack roll of 6 -> 15/6 auto wound
• Of the 15/2 hits
  • wound roll of 3 to 6 -> 15/2 * 2/3
    • 5 successful wound rolls
• Therefore total successful wounds for 10 BG ->
  • 15/6 + 5
  • 7.5 total successful wounds

GR

• GR have 2" range, 2 attacks each, for a total of 20 attacks
• of those 20
  • attack roll of 4 to 5 -> 20/3 successful hit
  • attack roll of 6 -> 20/6 auto wound
• of the 20/3 successful hits
  • wound roll of 3 to 6 -> 20/3 * 2/3
    • 40/9
    • 4 and 4/9  successful wounds
• therefore total successful wounds for 10 GR
  • 20/6 + 40/9
  • 30/9 + 40/9
  • 70/9
  • 7 and 7/9

So since 7 and 7/9 is greater than 7.5, wouldn't 10 GR be better than 10 BR?

Or am I missing something?

Thanks for reading all this!