Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Chumphammer said: So there's no way to get the 5++ on your opponent's turn before turn 4? RIP. They did exactly what I hoped they wouldn't do. They buffed the army's output 20% without fixing the greater systemic issues relating to durability and utility. At least Morathi+Bow Snakes is still around. Edited May 13, 2022 by Rebluff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutton Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) These Blood Rites abilities are tied to YOUR turn, so they don't carry over into the opponent's turn. A little disappointing. Means our troops will be markedly weaker throughout half of the game. It's actually a substantial nerf to Witchbrew, all things considered. But hey, if it means we're wiping out units left and right during the charge, it'll be worth taking the extra beating on the off-turn. We'll have to see. Edited May 13, 2022 by Mutton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrispyXIV Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, Mutton said: These Blood Rites abilities are tied to YOUR turn, so they don't carry over into the opponent's turn. A little disappointing. Means our troops will be markedly weaker throughout half of the game. It's actually a substantial nerf to Witchbrew, all things considered. But hey, if it means we're wiping out units left and right during the charge, it'll be worth taking the extra beating on the off-turn. We'll have to see. Yeah, it massively hurts my dreams of buffing up a big anvil unit to receive a charge. Army is very, very agro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 17 minutes ago, Mutton said: These Blood Rites abilities are tied to YOUR turn, so they don't carry over into the opponent's turn. A little disappointing. Means our troops will be markedly weaker throughout half of the game. It's actually a substantial nerf to Witchbrew, all things considered. But hey, if it means we're wiping out units left and right during the charge, it'll be worth taking the extra beating on the off-turn. We'll have to see. The problem is turn 1 shooting phase. Melee DoK lists didn't work in 3.0 because you'd lose half your Witch Aelves before you got to move against a lot of armies. Now it's something like 3/4ths. 6 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said: Yeah, it massively hurts my dreams of buffing up a big anvil unit to receive a charge. Army is very, very agro. We more or less don't have army rules unless we're charging. And Morathi+Bow snakes is STILL probably our best list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnholyRevenant Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) Shadowqueen warscroll leaked. Found the Morathi Nerf. They changed the last sentence of the first paragraph on the ShadowQueen's warscroll from 'any further wounds and mortal wounds that would be allocated to this model are ignored and have no effect.' to 'any further wounds and mortal wounds that would be allocated to this model are NEGATED. This means that wounds that come from Morathi-Khaine, which cannot be negated, ignore the Ironheart of Khaine rule now. So any army with decent spellcasting/shooting that can target out Morathi-Khaine can now kill Morathi in 1 turn. Maybe. The wording is goofy. Edited May 13, 2022 by Rebluff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrispyXIV Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Rebluff said: Shadowqueen warscroll leaked. Found the Morathi Nerf. They changed the last sentence of the first paragraph on the ShadowQueen's warscroll from 'any further wounds and mortal wounds that would be allocated to this model are ignored and have no effect.' to 'any further wounds and mortal wounds that would be allocated to this model are NEGATED. This means that wounds that come from Morathi-Khaine, which cannot be negated, ignore the Ironheart of Khaine rule now. So any army with decent spellcasting/shooting that can target out Morathi-Khaine can now kill Morathi in 1 turn. NGL folks, this book is even worse than the last one. I wonder if that's intended or an oversight. Definitely creates a weird situation where the order the models are damaged in matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrispyXIV Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Rebluff said: Shadowqueen warscroll leaked. Found the Morathi Nerf. They changed the last sentence of the first paragraph on the ShadowQueen's warscroll from 'any further wounds and mortal wounds that would be allocated to this model are ignored and have no effect.' to 'any further wounds and mortal wounds that would be allocated to this model are NEGATED. This means that wounds that come from Morathi-Khaine, which cannot be negated, ignore the Ironheart of Khaine rule now. So any army with decent spellcasting/shooting that can target out Morathi-Khaine can now kill Morathi in 1 turn. NGL folks, this book is even worse than the last one. Counterpoint - the first line of Iron Heart of Khaine says explicitly that no more than 3 wounds per turn can be allocated to her per turn, full stop. This needs an FAQ. Edited May 13, 2022 by KrispyXIV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 1 minute ago, KrispyXIV said: Counterpoint - the first line of Iron Heart of Khaine says explicitly that no more than 3 wounds per turn can be allocated to her per turn, full stop. This needs an FAQ. The old rule was written in a really dumb way too, but because it says wounds beyond the 3 were ignored, it bypassed rules that ignored rule negation so it couldn't possibly create any issues. Now it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrispyXIV Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Just now, Rebluff said: The old rule was written in a really dumb way too, but because it says wounds beyond the 3 were ignored, it bypassed rules that ignored rule negation so it couldn't possibly create any issues. Now it does. I agree the old wording was more clear. But it would appear that the first line still prevents more than 3 wounds being allocated in one turn, in any case. It seems like it should play the same as previous until a FAQ clarifies one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, KrispyXIV said: I agree the old wording was more clear. But it would appear that the first line still prevents more than 3 wounds being allocated in one turn, in any case. It seems like it should play the same as previous until a FAQ clarifies one way or the other. They completely unnecessarily changed one word in the rule and completely F-ed up it's interpretation. Also, with the changes to the way Ward Saves are worded now, they could have dropped everything beyond 'only 3 wounds can be allocated to this model' the OLD rule was to deal with non-uniform ward rules preventing wounds after being allocated. Edited May 13, 2022 by Rebluff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Artifacts and traits seems really good. I can see some combos and diferent styles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutton Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 It's pretty clear that no more than 3 wounds can be allocated. Works the same as before with slightly more befuddling wording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, Mutton said: It's pretty clear that no more than 3 wounds can be allocated. Works the same as before with slightly more befuddling wording. Which I don't doubt, it's just classic GW to ****** up a copy paste. Remember the Shadow Queen's Schrodinger's Rend-2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 So just staple Zealous Orator to your general then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrispyXIV Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Rebluff said: So just staple Zealous Orator to your general then? It seems like a common pick, assuming you have a big chonky unit that can afford to not be engaged at the start of a turn. Most of the others aren't bad or unplayable though - many of them are pretty good even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumphammer Posted May 13, 2022 Author Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) Only buffs from melusi are in your combat phase, witch brew, Sacrament and hagg nar buffs are in both. So turn 2 you can have a 5++ in enemy turn on a unit Zealous orator makes up for losing hagg nar 5++. Regroup on 4+ on any unit is solid **re read and yeah witchbrew is turn, huh Edited May 13, 2022 by Chumphammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumphammer Posted May 13, 2022 Author Share Posted May 13, 2022 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrispyXIV Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Chumphammer said: Only buffs from melusi are in your combat phase, witch brew, Sacrament and hagg nar buffs are in both. So turn 2 you can have a 5++ in enemy turn on a unit Zealous orator makes up for losing hagg nar 5++. Regroup on 4+ on any unit is solid The snip you shared previously from Witch Brew says it lasts until the end of the turn. Melusai Kin is also "your combat phase". So while you can have a 5++ on your turn 2, it's still a lot of exposure where you can't have it on opponents 2. Edited May 13, 2022 by KrispyXIV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmani Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said: The snip you shared previously from Witch Brew says it lasts until the end of the turn. Melusai Kin is also "your combat phase". So while you can have a 5++ on your turn 2, it's still a lot of exposure where you can't have it on opponents 2. I don't want to judge its strength, but I do have to say I love the implications. The whole rule basically forces DoK to play aggressive. Let's hope the rest of the book is finely tuned. Edited May 13, 2022 by Rachmani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said: It seems like a common pick, assuming you have a big chonky unit that can afford to not be engaged at the start of a turn. Most of the others aren't bad or unplayable though - many of them are pretty good even. I mean, against most armies you'll be losing a moderate number of models before combat really starts. Rallying back a handful of bowsnakes when going second seems pretty great. I'm not a huge fan of anything that revolves around your Non-Morathi character's personal combat efficacy. With Artefacts I usually stop reading after 'pick one of the bearer's melee weapons'. Arcane Mastery seems unnecessary unless there's an easy way to get more spell casts(Master of Magic is probably better), Bathed in blood is fine but unless you have a Cauldron General it doesn't really do much. Fueled by rage is good but in a snake list I would say Zealous is probably better in most cases. Master of Poisons is a meme. True Believer is kind of whatever. I guess if you're doing like an Aggro frontline cauldron it's decent. Sacrificial Overseer could be good. I'm not 100% sure how that works with the mount rules now, but fighting twice is almost always solid. Would probably rather still have a force multiplier ability though. Edited May 13, 2022 by Rebluff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Rachmani said: I don't want to judge its strength, but I do have to say I love the implications. The whole rule basically forces DoK to play aggressive. Let's hope the rest of the book is finely tuned. As of right now it looks like the rest of the book is copy paste, rather than finely tuned. Our secondaries are pretty good though. We basically start the game with 3VP because of how easy Bloodthirsty Zealots is to score. Clash of Arms is easy, Tide of Blades is easy, Hatred of Chaos is easy for HaggNarr in that matchup. Unexpected attack is easy to get if you brought shadowstalkers. The other two exist. Edited May 13, 2022 by Rebluff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrispyXIV Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 On the subject of tuning - 4+ rally prevents double shooting. Trade offs like that make me think they were considering the big picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutton Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Where are you guys seeing the command traits/artifacts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebluff Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 26 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said: On the subject of tuning - 4+ rally prevents double shooting. Trade offs like that make me think they were considering the big picture. How so? As far as I can tell you just have to rally first. Did I miss something in the wording? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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