AoS 3 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Mutton]

Khinerai losing the bonus rend in this world of save stacking hurts, but I'm excited about the rest of it. I'll take an auto-witchbrew for +1 rite over a 5+ to reroll wounds any day of the week. I'm particularly hyped for a stab snake comeback--a better mortal wound ability and fighting on death sound awesome. I'm really curious how the Bloodwrack Shrine and Ironscale changed.

[Eternalis]

So Morathi is a worse caster than in the first and second book ? What a shame. I hope the Shadow Stone is back to its previous form, otherwise it won't be fun to cast spells.

Is the witchbrew only giving +1 Blood Rites? No more Battleshock and wound rolls bonus?

[KrispyXIV]

Zainthar Kai "fight on death" plus 4+ rally seems like it could be hillarious. 

[Rebluff]

1 hour ago, Mutton said:

Khinerai losing the bonus rend in this world of save stacking hurts, but I'm excited about the rest of it. I'll take an auto-witchbrew for +1 rite over a 5+ to reroll wounds any day of the week. I'm particularly hyped for a stab snake comeback--a better mortal wound ability and fighting on death sound awesome. I'm really curious how the Bloodwrack Shrine and Ironscale changed.

My initial impression is that there needs to be some significant synergistic interaction that hasn't been spoiled or we might be in trouble.

We obviously don't have the whole picture yet and even with the codex in hand it will take a couple of weeks to actually gauge the quality of the book, but this is pretty underwhelming thus far.

Khinerai are even more 'min unit to deepstrike onto objectives and nothing else' than they were before. The fact that they're still 95 points is really sad.

I see now what Chump was talking about as far as 'all will see play' goes. The bonuses are more minor now so it doesn't really matter which one you take. I imagine the teleport will be the most popular but I don't think any of them are standouts.

The Mindrazor change is disappointing but minor. In my experience it only went off once every 3 or 4 games without getting unbound anyway.

Morathi nerfs suck. The CA change is better than I was hoping for but a 20pt bump, losing +1 to cast, AND apparently having a worse damage table isn't great. Maybe hope to get her back under 600 after the next GHB?

Witchbrew is better. I'm not sure you'd take a hag for it though.

Hard to comment on Cauldrons without seeing the updated warscroll but +1 to prayer might be good? I haven't taken a priest in a DoK list since 2nd, but maybe?

Bucklers change is better against shooting, worse against melee because they lost the mortal wound effect. Not sure how that balances out. Should be pretty similar.

Need clarification on the Blood Sister thing works. If it's the same rule but at the end of their activation and a 2=, massive improvement. If the 1" range is per MODEL instead of per unit now, it's slightly better.

The points look a little silly to me. The only warscrolls we know for sure about are WE, Gladiatrix, Morath, and Khinerai and 3 out of 4 of those seem significantly overcosted from the jump.

Again, missing full context here but I'm not seeing anything that really says 'wow this will be cool/fun/strong!'. My first read is just taking Haggnarr and the Bloodrites bonus abilities and stacking them until you can get at least 1 big unit to 5++ turn one. So how it used to work in second but you without immune to battleshock and requiring more setup.

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, Rebluff said:

My initial impression is that there needs to be some significant synergistic interaction that hasn't been spoiled or we might be in trouble.

We obviously don't have the whole picture yet and even with the codex in hand it will take a couple of weeks to actually gauge the quality of the book, but this is pretty underwhelming thus far.

Khinerai are even more 'min unit to deepstrike onto objectives and nothing else' than they were before. The fact that they're still 95 points is really sad.

I see now what Chump was talking about as far as 'all will see play' goes. The bonuses are more minor now so it doesn't really matter which one you take. I imagine the teleport will be the most popular but I don't think any of them are standouts.

The Mindrazor change is disappointing but minor. In my experience it only went off once every 3 or 4 games without getting unbound anyway.

Morathi nerfs suck. The CA change is better than I was hoping for but a 20pt bump, losing +1 to cast, AND apparently having a worse damage table isn't great. Maybe hope to get her back under 600 after the next GHB?

Witchbrew is better. I'm not sure you'd take a hag for it though.

Hard to comment on Cauldrons without seeing the updated warscroll but +1 to prayer might be good? I haven't taken a priest in a DoK list since 2nd, but maybe?

Bucklers change is better against shooting, worse against melee because they lost the mortal wound effect. Not sure how that balances out. Should be pretty similar.

Need clarification on the Blood Sister thing works. If it's the same rule but at the end of their activation and a 2=, massive improvement. If the 1" range is per MODEL instead of per unit now, it's slightly better.

The points look a little silly to me. The only warscrolls we know for sure about are WE, Gladiatrix, Morath, and Khinerai and 3 out of 4 of those seem significantly overcosted from the jump.

Again, missing full context here but I'm not seeing anything that really says 'wow this will be cool/fun/strong!'. My first read is just taking Haggnarr and the Bloodrites bonus abilities and stacking them until you can get at least 1 big unit to 5++ turn one. So how it used to work in second but you without immune to battleshock and requiring more setup.

You sourcing some of that from elsewhere?

I hadn't noticed any changes to Mindrazor, for example. 

[Chumphammer]

From what I saw no changes in MR. Pit of shades went to a 6 and only other spell change was Mirror Dance

Morathi losing +1 to cast is fine as she kept her command ability and now doesnt bracket till 7W, So effective for longer. For 680 shes still a solid piece 

The DOk heroic action gives +2 attacks to non monster hero

We also have a Command ability that basically is catachism

Prayers stayed the same so you do have a immune to battle shock one.

GW seem to be  moving away from stuff that gives immune to BS. Skaven just lost it on the new screaming bell warscroll also. Plus, we got an item that stops rally/Inspiring which is awesome.

The new book is good. It might not be bent or S+ but its defiantly solid

We can give multiple units +1 to rites or pile them all on one and go nuts (Haggnar can give max buffs turn 1)  Hell by turn 3 we can have multiple units maxed out

yeah, we lost some things, but gained more

Heartrenders, Blood Sisters, Witch Alves and Avatars came out stronger imo. Cauldrons got prayers tweeked, give own +1 to prayers and attack profile now D3 not 1 W. SQ lost deathsword)

the rest is still solid. Bar Lifetakers, ever unit can make my lists, and the Subfactions may have lost some of their ompf but you can now pick and Command trait and artifact which is a good trade imo. Crown of Woe and Rally on 4+, ****** yes. 

The fact Morathi and the bowsnakes hasnt been nerfed is good for some people, but that list isnt the best and now we have a lot of options (Inc all Aevles, Stormcast and COS can ally with us) means we have a wealth of options.

Interesting more is the other bonuses. Khelibron with Shadowstalker battle line can have a huge about of movement shinnaigans now

Draichi with extra reinforcements means we can bring bigger units to play

Hagg Nar with "free" Cauldron, ****** yes 2 Cauldrons and 3 avatars.

Its going to be a lot of fun

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Chumphammer

[Rebluff]

10 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

You sourcing some of that from elsewhere?

I hadn't noticed any changes to Mindrazor, for example. 

Some is rumors from the same source that chart is. The Mindrazor thing is me misreading Mirror Dance. Oops. 😬

[Rebluff]

10 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

From what I saw no changes in MR. Pit of shades went to a 6 and only other spell change was Mirror Dance

Morathi losing +1 to cast is fine as she kept her command ability and now doesnt bracket till 7W, So effective for longer. For 680 shes still a solid piece 

The DOk heroic action gives +2 attacks to non monster hero

We also have a Command ability that basically is catachism

Prayers stayed the same so you do have a immune to battle shock one.

GW seem to be  moving away from stuff that gives immune to BS. Skaven just lost it on the new screaming bell warscroll also. Plus, we got an item that stops rally/Inspiring which is awesome.

The new book is good. It might not be bent or S+ but its defiantly solid

We can give multiple units +1 to rites or pile them all on one and go nuts (Haggnar can give max buffs turn 1)  Hell by turn 3 we can have multiple units maxed out

yeah, we lost some things, but gained more

Heartrenders, Blood Sisters, Witch Alves and Avatars came out stronger imo. Cauldrons got prayers tweeked, give own +1 to prayers and attack profile now D3 not 1 W. SQ lost deathsword)

the rest is still solid. Bar Lifetakers, ever unit can make my lists, and the Subfactions may have lost some of their ompf but you can now pick and Command trait and artifact which is a good trade imo. Crown of Woe and Rally on 4+, ****** yes. 

The fact Morathi and the bowsnakes hasnt been nerfed is good for some people, but that list isnt the best and now we have a lot of options (Inc all Aevles, Stormcast and COS can ally with us) means we have a wealth of options.

Interesting more is the other bonuses. Khelibron with Shadowstalker battle line can have a huge about of movement shinnaigans now

Draichi with extra reinforcements means we can bring bigger units to play

Hagg Nar with "free" Cauldron, ****** yes 2 Cauldrons and 3 avatars.

Its going to be a lot of fun

 

Like I said, I'm definitely missing full context and it's different enough that we likely won't see the army reach its potential right away.

I definitely think it offers a broader selection of builds that can all compete with one another. I just hope they'll also be able to compete with everyone else.

[KrispyXIV]

11 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

The DOk heroic action gives +2 attacks to non monster hero

 

Uh... all profiles?

All non-mount profiles?

In a vacuum that's insane for a cauldron. 

 

[Chumphammer]

Just now, KrispyXIV said:

Uh... all profiles?

All non-mount profiles?

In a vacuum that's insane for a cauldron. 

 

Just the hero themselves. But thats still 6 3+/3+ -1 D3 before Rites buffs and other things 

We also have a trait that lets the person attack again at the end of the turn (and would be whole model)

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, Chumphammer said:

Just the hero themselves. But thats still 6 3+/3+ -1 D3 before Rites buffs and other things 

We also have a trait that lets the person attack again at the end of the turn (and would be whole model)

Sad day.  

It sounds to me like both a Catechism CA and that HA seem tailor built to replace All Out Attack and Finest Hour after Blood Rites turn 3 and 4, respectively.  

[Mutton]

 

58 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

The fact Morathi and the bowsnakes hasnt been nerfed is good for some people, but that list isnt the best and now we have a lot of options

I'd argue that the only issue with Morathi/bow snakes was the CA that could be used every turn with impunity. Now that it's only once per game, the issue is largely resolved.

Know if the shrine is about the same? I always include that thing in my lists.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Mutton

[Gokken]

Poor lifetakers, they were so close to having potential

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, Mutton said:

 

I'd argue that the only issue with Morathi/bow snakes was the CA that could be used every turn with impunity. Now that it's only once per game, the issue is largely resolved.

Know if the shrine is about the same? I always include that thing in my lists.

not once per game, just limited to 18"

HQ Cauldron: Lost both its prayers, new prayer does d3 MW to a unit in 3". Gains +1 prayers and D3 damage on HQ attacks. 

Sq cauldron: Lost Deathsword but gained D3 as above on other profile. Gained a prayer that gives it Strike 1st till your next turn. Orgy of slaughter now 18" (As totem) 

Both dont bracket till 7W taken

[Mutton]

1 minute ago, Chumphammer said:

not once per game, just limited to 18"

Oh I see, interesting. I am surprised that combo didn't get hit at all then.
 

4 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

HQ Cauldron: Lost both its prayers, new prayer does d3 MW to a unit in 3". Gains +1 prayers and D3 damage on HQ attacks. 

Sq cauldron: Lost Deathsword but gained D3 as above on other profile. Gained a prayer that gives it Strike 1st till your next turn. Orgy of slaughter now 18" (As totem) 

Both dont bracket till 7W taken

I was asking about the Medusa Shrine, not the priest cauldrons. Appreciate the info though.

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, Mutton said:

Oh I see, interesting. I am surprised that combo didn't get hit at all then.
 

I was asking about the Medusa Shrine, not the priest cauldrons. Appreciate the info though.

Oh they are pretty much the same I think. Only difference I saw was whisper claw is 3+/3+ and no MW on 6's

 

[KrispyXIV]

3 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Oh they are pretty much the same I think. Only difference I saw was whisper claw is 3+/3+ and no MW on 6's

 

Womp wah.  Thats a shame - any rend or bonus damage?

I liked the whisperclaw for sneaking through wounds on tough targets. 

[Rebluff]

So my theorycraft at this point is that not a whole lot is going to change. We'll be doing a lot of what we've already been doing but with a bit of a spin on it. If they don't want to nerf Morathi+BloodStalkers, I guess we can just continue to ride that 55-60% winrate train until it derails.

If I had to build a list I would say something along the lines of:

Hagg Narr: (Upon further reflection I think Hagg Narr is actually even further ahead of the rest of the field than it was. 5++>All)

Morathi(Mindrazor)

Medusa(relevant command trait, The Withering)

Hag Queen (Blessing of Khaine, Relevant Relic)

15 Blood Stalkers

10 Witch Aelves

10 Witch Aelves

10 Shadowstalkers

5 Blood Sisters

Edited May 12, 2022 by Rebluff

[Horizons]

Sisters and Witches in Draichi Ganeth (sp?) seem pretty nice with a Gladiatrix. They'd be going up to rend 3 with Mindrazor. The extra reinforcement could also be nice.

[Jaskier]

I'm loving the changes or lack thereof in some cases, and it does look like build diversity got a big boost. Gladiatrix + Witches in Draichi Ganeth, snakes in Zanthar Kai, or just the ever strong Khelt Nar and Hagg Narr for less specific builds all sound enticing to me - much better than the previous book where I only liked two temples. Draichi Ganeth and the Gladiatrix solve my biggest issue with Witches (anemic damage into high saves) so that's likely what I'll try first, as my Witches have been retired for far too long. 

[Rebluff]

3 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I'm loving the changes or lack thereof in some cases, and it does look like build diversity got a big boost. Gladiatrix + Witches in Draichi Ganeth, snakes in Zanthar Kai, or just the ever strong Khelt Nar and Hagg Narr for less specific builds all sound enticing to me - much better than the previous book where I only liked two temples. Draichi Ganeth and the Gladiatrix solve my biggest issue with Witches (anemic damage into high saves) so that's likely what I'll try first, as my Witches have been retired for far too long. 

Draichi+Gladiatrix was already a thing though, wasn't it? That's the one combo that received almost no changes.

It's interesting that your problem is output because historically, I haven't had any problem killing something once I got stuck in with it, I struggled having more than 4 witch aelves left at the end of my opponent's first shooting phase. 😔

Edited May 12, 2022 by Rebluff

[Jaskier]

9 minutes ago, Rebluff said:

Draichi+Gladiatrix was already a thing though, wasn't it? That's the one combo that received almost no changes.

It's interesting that your problem is output because historically, I haven't had any problem killing something once I got stuck in with it, I struggled having more than 4 witch aelves left at the end of my opponent's first shooting phase. 😔

Huh, it was too 😅 shows how little incentive I had before to swap from Hagg Nar! I guess the big change from the old book is more the Gladiatrix herself, Rend 1 in the current meta is a bit eh but Rend 2 (up to 3 with Mindrazor) is the sweet spot. 

Well they die to shooting anyway, not much can change that, especially now the 5++ bubble is gone (though being able to stack Blood Rite bonuses onto one unit to get that early is nice.) My problem was they bounced right off anything with a 2+ or 3+ save, and after facing three Stormcast lists in my last two-dayer that's a big concern for me - I'm ok with them being glass, but the problem was they weren't really cannons either in my experience. 

[Gokken]

Question is how does the turn 5 effect work with blessing of khaine?

 

[Chumphammer]

56 minutes ago, Gokken said:

Question is how does the turn 5 effect work with blessing of khaine?

 

Same as before, Cast prayer on 1 unit and it gets rerolls to ward save 

[KrispyXIV]

9 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Same as before, Cast prayer on 1 unit and it gets rerolls to ward save 

It's actually kindof shocking that stayed!  Rerolls for life. 

I wonder - do we have ANY bonuses to casting in book now?  Rerolls, bonus artefacts, etc?  Since it sounds like Morathi is no longer +1...

I know Doomfires previously had a +1 to cast, but the Lore for the book being limited to DoK heroes kindof kept them from anything good...