Soulblight Gravelords News, Rumours and Speculation

[Grimoriano]

11 minutes ago, Elmir said:

I'm actually quite curious how the interaction will be between those models getting ressed vs how many will count for the inevitable battleshock that follows. 

The wording of the AoS3 battleshock will matter a lot on having to take those resurrected casualties into account or not for your final battleshock test. 

They solve it in a faq(2019), if 20 were killed and you resurrect 10, in the battleshock phase you add 20 to the roll. But in the same case with dance macabre, you roll 20 dice to resurrect the first time to get 10 of them back, and the second time roll again 20!, so with dance, you recover 100% of them, but sure, add 20 to the roll and the battleshock, or pay 1 cp to save all the unit

[Sception]

3 minutes ago, Elmir said:

Then try to argue  for the fact that getting a worse tanking unit in skeletons is somehow the smarter choice compared to just getting the tankier, faster and harder hitting Blood knights instead? If a tanky unit is what you are after...

 

Oh, I can argue this one, and I'm not even convinced skeletons are any good.

Skeletons count as 20 models for objectives for 170 points, blood knights are only 5 models for objectives at 195.

[Elmir]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

 

So, to me the difference is: Zombies want to charge, skeletons want to be charged. Both are valuable roles.

I don't want to charge even with zombies... I would much rather have them shamble out of 3" into combat due to their 6" move, giving me a lot more control over target selection instead of being forced to have to strike last before their abilities are "useful".

[Aren73]

4 minutes ago, Elmir said:

Then try to argue  for the fact that getting a worse tanking unit in skeletons is somehow the smarter choice compared to just getting the tankier, faster and harder hitting Blood knights instead? If a tanky unit is what you are after...

Skeletons lose out in damage and flexibilty/tricks compared to zombies for your battle line, and with the mega fast blood knights being one of the tankiest units in the game, they kind of also lose out against those too in that department. I just don't see a place for the humble skelly in this book. 

 

Because I want bodies on objectives and not 5-10 blood knights sitting there camping. 

I want my blood knight pushing up, onto enemy objectives, taking them and then being unkillable. But on home objectives, or mid objectives I want the skeletons. 

Zombies have a place, they're better at damage and they can really get going when you stack the buffs, but they need at least two layers of buffs before they're scary. 
Look, I'm with you that Zombies are cool, you can really do some fun stuff with them. But they're not the be all and end all, sometimes skellies are just better. 

[Izotzuhure]

47 minutes ago, Nightseer2012 said:

What about a Vrykos Vengorian Lord w/ Driven by Deathsteanch?  Deep strike the Gravegaurd, move up to support with Vengorian general w/ DbDs, both the Grave Guard and the Vengorian Lord get a reroll on charges?

That sounds really interesting and you could make Belladama cast cogs to ensure they charge. If both charge the same target, or the Vengorian lord is close enough, they would still be getting +1 to Wound and +1 to save (if the enemy has any rend). Throw in rerolling 1s to hit and it would be like the Coven Throne CA without risking the Guard. 

[Boar]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Skeletons, meanwhile, I like for sitting squarely on an objective in a tight pack. Minimize the opponent's area of attack, get charged and then regenerate to surround him. Regeneration is before they attack or pile in, so you will generally be able to bring at least 15 skeletons in to attack if even one of them survives

You now need to set up returned models one by one within 1" of model that wasn't returned earlier in that phase. That severly limits chance of surrounding or one skeleton unit returning in large quantitites

[Grimoriano]

3 minutes ago, Boar said:

You now need to set up returned models one by one within 1" of model that wasn't returned earlier in that phase. That severly limits chance of surrounding or one skeleton unit returning in large quantitites

You can surround 1 skelli by 18 returned. Is 1" w not ww, and their base is less than 1" 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 minutes ago, Elmir said:

I don't want to charge even with zombies... I would much rather have them shamble out of 3" into combat due to their 6" move, giving me a lot more control over target selection instead of being forced to have to strike last before their abilities are "useful".

The thing is, striking last is not even bad with skeletons since their healing is done before they attack.

[Boar]

3 minutes ago, Grimoriano said:

You can surround 1 skelli by 18 returned. Is 1" w not ww, and their base is less than 1" 

Well if in melee where it matters most there will be much less space, and still surounding is out of question. Also if you don't have model in combat you cannot place resurected models into combat

Edited May 15, 2021 by Boar

[Aren73]

I find it funny how heated the skellies vs zombies thing got. 

If nothing else, it's showing that they are comparable in durability, each is better in different scenarios. If nothing else it's proof that skellies aren't terrible, they have their place - it's just not as a damage dealing unit.

If you want to go with a zombie themed army you go for it, I'll be taking the unit choice that doesn't force me to build around it. 

[Grimoriano]

1 minute ago, Boar said:

Well if in melee where it matters most there will be much less space, and still sorounding is out of question. Also if you don't have model in combat you cannot place resurected models into combat

Just leave the last one from the 3° line, at 2" from enemy. 

[Grimoriano]

Just now, Aren73 said:

I find it funny how heated the skellies vs zombies thing got. 

If nothing else, it's showing that they are comparable in durability, each is better in different scenarios. If nothing else it's proof that skellies aren't terrible, they have their place - it's just not as a damage dealing unit.

If you want to go with a zombie themed army you go for it, I'll be taking the unit choice that doesn't force me to build around it. 

To me both are very goods, and have their own space in my army.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 minutes ago, Grimoriano said:

They solve it in a faq(2019), if 20 were killed and you resurrect 10, in the battleshock phase you add 20 to the roll. But in the same case with dance macabre, you roll 20 dice to resurrect the first time to get 10 of them back, and the second time roll again 20!, so with dance, you recover 100% of them, but sure, add 20 to the roll and the battleshock, or pay 1 cp to save all the unit

I wonder if battleshock will get an overhaul in AoS 3. It's hard to say if we would benefit or be hurt by Inspiring Presence going away, for example. If it sticks around and CP becomes more plentiful, they might as well get rid of battleshock all together.

[Boar]

3 minutes ago, Grimoriano said:

Just leave the last one from the 3° line, at 2" from enemy. 

Yup, just bringing various limitations to attention before people get wild ideas

[Aren73]

1 minute ago, Grimoriano said:

To me both are very goods, and have their own space in my army.

Yeah, I agree. 

My whole thing was just to show that zombies aren't always the best option. Sometimes they are, other times they're not, they are not better i every scenerio, not even in the greater majority of scenarios, I see it as a healthy 50:50 or 60:40 (though not sure which way the advantage is there...yet).

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Aren73 said:

If nothing else it's proof that skellies aren't terrible, they have their place - it's just not as a damage dealing unit.

Honestly, that was not their job in LoN either. Piling three buffs on them to give them 400 attacks was always a bad strategy. Maybe that's why I feel pretty comfortable with the new skeletons: Even in my old list, Warriors were just there to capture and tarpit, any damage was incidental.

[Aren73]

20 minutes ago, Grimoriano said:

They solve it in a faq(2019), if 20 were killed and you resurrect 10, in the battleshock phase you add 20 to the roll. But in the same case with dance macabre, you roll 20 dice to resurrect the first time to get 10 of them back, and the second time roll again 20!, so with dance, you recover 100% of them, but sure, add 20 to the roll and the battleshock, or pay 1 cp to save all the unit

This the one?

[Elmir]

1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I wonder if battleshock will get an overhaul in AoS 3. It's hard to say if we would benefit or be hurt by Inspiring Presence going away, for example. If it sticks around and CP becomes more plentiful, they might as well get rid of battleshock all together.

This why I'm really curious to see what happens with both CP generation, what generals do and what generic CAs still remain. 

Insane bravery going away is something I'm a strong proponent of... It already makes the battleshock phase a nothing burger, even with limited amounts of CP. 

And now, they really seem to suggest you get more CP... If CP generation is somehow tied to your general still being alive (and that is a strong hunch I'm getting, as they seem to get inspiration from Ossiarch RDP), I could see Vyrkos getting kinda insane. 

[Boar]

If rumored changes to mystic shield (+1 sav), and charge reaction (again +1sv) are true that could give another point for Skellies in some situations, as the more armor you have the more valuable is another point, as some posters shown earlier.

[Aren73]

1 minute ago, Boar said:

If rumored changes to mystic shield (+1 sav), and charge reaction (again +1sv) are true that could give another point for Skellies in some situations, as the more armor you have the more valuable is another point, as some posters shown earlier.

If that's true then 100% save modifiers will be capped at +/-1. Otherwise it would be so easy to have multiple 2+ save units.

 

4 minutes ago, Elmir said:

 I could see Vyrkos getting kinda insane. 

Same, can't wait, the Coven Throne is already amazing with the trait that lets it use a CA without paying. If we get more CP then a whole chunk of the army could be rolling with +1 Hit, wound and save. Makes Blood Knight, Coven Throne armies nuts. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

11 minutes ago, Boar said:

If rumored changes to mystic shield (+1 sav), and charge reaction (again +1sv) are true that could give another point for Skellies in some situations, as the more armor you have the more valuable is another point, as some posters shown earlier.

Could also shift the balance in favour of Great Weapons on Grave Guard, since the shield is another save bonus. If you can reliably replace tha with mystic shield or the charge reaction, the extra damage might win out after all.

[Beliman]

6 minutes ago, Aren73 said:

If that's true then 100% save modifiers will be capped at +/-1. Otherwise it would be so easy to have multiple 2+ save units.

Maybe that's what GW want to go with 3.0? Better saves in turn for less lethality and more controled mw? I can't wait for 3.0!!!!

 

[BrotherTalarian]

Maybe, similar to Fantasy, ranged weapons have a -1 to hit if it’s over half their range. Would reduce their effectiveness by quite a bit. 

[Aren73]

1 minute ago, Beliman said:

Maybe that's what GW want to go with 3.0? Better saves in turn for less lethality and more controled mw? I can't wait for 3.0!!!!

 

Could well be - make the game less about wiping away large units in a single blow and also reducing maximum unit size because you no longer need so many bodies (that's why zombies are 40 and not 60)

[Nagash42]

I just wish avengorii had more then 3 command traits/relics.