Dracolines

[Lucur]

As we just had the nice go over in the Starcast thread, i'd thought we might as well have a go here.

I'm running a six Dracoline list for quite some time now and have found the following to be the core i bring every time:

Lord Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline for pride leader and your choice of spell, i lean to use her for endless spells.

Lord Castellant to lessen the impact of the inevitable countercharge and shooting

Knight Heraldor to increase threat range and allow re-charge to get the damage bonus on the cats

Chronomantic Cogs to get Celestial Blades and Empower off and most importantly, reroll saves.

Star of the show: 6 Evocators on Dracolines, 3 Grandstaves and Celestial Blades.

That's what i run every time and i feel bad to leave anything out. In my current iteration i add three ballista with Lordinator, 15 Sequitors and 5 Liberators or 3 Prosecutors, depending on mood.

The next things i want to tinker with are an Ambermage to get +2 run and charge, especially with Heraldor, and a Knight Vexillor to port the cats back "to base" for buffing after they nuked their initial target. Since i'm running Celestial Vindicators lately, i feel pride leader and the LAoCD are more of a burden than they are worth. Might drop her and go 3×5 Liberators. Or take the LAoGC instead, the healing and CA might be really useful and riding the winds allows to keep up with run and charge cats.

How's everyone else doing with their cats? What do you do to support them?

Edited February 12, 2020 by Lucur

[Sleepa]

My current Dracoline list is somewhat similar to yours, but has a few differences;

General LAoCD -> Pride Leader (This is just such a good trait. I know where you're coming from when considering alternatives, but I'm not sure I can give it up)

Lord Castellant

Knight Heraldor

Lord Ordinator

Battleline: I just really prefer Sequitors, and since I'm running a LA as my general, I'm definitely using them

5x Sequitors

5x Sequitors

5x Sequitors 

Artillery

4x Celestar Ballista

Other:

6x Evocators on Celestial Dracolines

Endless spells:

Suffocating Gravetide (I had 20 points to spare, and Gravetide is occasionally ok at zoning some flanks)

Extra Command Point -> I never have enough CP in SC armies. I almost always take this, since I haven't included a Battalion in the last 10 lists I've made.

 

I've gone back and forth between Celestial Vindicators and Astra Templars. I've had better results with the Vindicators, but that was against a wider variety of non-competitive meta lists. Not sure if I'd rather have the +1 to hit Monsters from Templars for my Ballistas right now.

3 hours ago, Lucur said:

Chronomantic Cogs to get Celestial Blades and Empower off and most importantly, reroll saves.

Here's a question: How often are you able to resolve Cogs? I tried it in early builds, and I honestly never managed to get it off on the ONE turn window I had to do it. Dracoline Evocators generally need to get that charge and hammer a priority target very early in the game, and at that point it almost felt too late to try to resolve Cogs. It feels like such a 50/50 to successfully cast, and then even if you DO roll that 7; so many popular armies are equipped with powerful casters to go for the dispel. After three games (I know, not a material sample size), I just gave up on trying to resolve Cogs, and retooled my list (Took out a Relictor, and added a fourth Ballista + CP + Gravetide)

I know Ballista are super RNG, but I like dropping them on an objective, and using them to draw my opponent in and dictate where the battle takes place. Bonus points if I can drop them into terrain that grants cover but doesn't obstruct LoS.

I also usually have my general flank around my Draco Evos and try to hunt down support units. I usually don't get him into combat on that first charge, unless I'm playing Astral Templars. Then sometimes I can move her up enough with the Command trait advance.

 

[schwabbele]

my experience so far:

getting 6 into combat is super hard. 9“ pride leader is even harder.

when they got durthud aka fight last , i shed a tear 😀
Castellant + mystic shield + blades on them is bomb,  makes your opponent shed a tear. 

based on that my plans are: 

try 2 units of 3 with LAoCD and without. 
try 6 without LAoCD and figure out what todo with 220 points. 
Wait for them to return from commission where they currently are awaiting their paintjob.

[Sleepa]

37 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

getting 6 into combat is super hard. 9“ pride leader is even harder.

I agree with you on the defensive buffs!

Honestly the reason I take a unit of six is so I can guarantee I will still have enough for a somewhat impactful charge if my opponent goes first and drops one or two with spells and/or shooting. I also don't mind the extra Lightning Arc dice added by the one or two I can't get in to that initial combat. I've had pretty good results getting 3-4 into combat at a time, and when I have to fight something particularly tanky; I like having enough that I can lose a few to retaliation, without crippling the unit.

TL:DR; Kitties 5 and 6 are kinda just there as insurance. I've run two units of 3, and they DO work independently, but you usually only have defensive buffs for one. Id you could fit two Heraldors and two Castellants, you might have the makings for a stew on your hands. 

*Edited for grammar

Edited February 12, 2020 by Sleepa

[Milano]

Im currently painting my own kitties list. Glad you brought it up. Ever thought about adding a second caster and a comet? Something like that: 
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline 
Knight-Heraldor
Knight-Incantor 
Lord-Castellant 
5 x Sequitors 
5 x Sequitors 
5 x Sequitors 
6 x Evocators on Dracolines
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows 
3 x Aetherwings 
Everblaze Comet
Total: 1980 / 2000

[Lucur]

@Sleepa@Sleepa

i try to cast cogs from outside 30, if possible. It is a gamble ofc, but cogs going off means i can get much more aggressive and try the first turn charge, if the situation allows it. To me it's more about the reroll saves, the extra spell is just icing. If i don't get cogs off, i'll position more carefully, preparing a clean turn two. That is where i struggle most, from a decission standpoint. I often feel the need to push in, to take boardcontrol and present threats to my opponent.

@ milano

That list looks nice, i often miss the auto dispel from an Incantor. I'm not sold on Longstrikes without Anvils though, neither am i sold on Dracolines in Anvils (they most of the time kill what they charge and are weak in a hero phase activation because they don't get their charge bonus), may be try multiple hurricanes with extra aetherwings?

Edited February 12, 2020 by Lucur

[Sleepa]

15 minutes ago, Lucur said:

i try to cast cogs from outside 30, if possible. It is a gamble ofc, but cogs going off means i can get much more aggressive and try the first turn charge, if the situation allows it. To me it's more about the reroll saves, the extra spell is just icing.

Oh yeah, the Cogs are absolutely about giving that reroll to saves in a list like this. What I struggle with, is that I have not once wanted to deploy my General and Evos far enough back to get them out of 30" of any enemy wizards. I've almost always wanted to deploy them as far forward as possible to threaten as much of the battlefield as I can with their range.

21 minutes ago, Milano said:

Im currently painting my own kitties list. Glad you brought it up. Ever thought about adding a second caster and a comet? 

I've tested Incantors and the Comet as well. Comet does some work no doubt, but aside from a few missions, the challenge I've encountered is that unless I go first, having my Incantor (or General) beyond 30" from opponent's wizards, has meant that I'm also out of dispel range for their spells! And I almost always want my Incantor further back than my General, as I get just nothing out of Pride Leader when my General is hanging back 31" away from the nearest enemy wizard.

It's tricky. SC have some units/options that really make you feel like you're being pulled in two totally opposite directions (tactically).

[Bozly]

I’ve narrowed my lists to two. Im pretty sure either one is good but i believe tempest lords is the play. I like guaranteeing the oneshot with LAoCD command ability. i think a stardrake may have a home in the list

 

LAoCD

Lord Celestant On stardrake

knight incantor Azyrite halo

Lord castellant or knight heraldor and 10 skinks

 

5 lib

5 lib

5lib

6 cats

extra command point

everblaze commet

theres just 50 floating points after this i like just making a unit sequitors or emerald lifeswarm is fine

 

or

LAoCD

drakesworn templar

aetherquartz brooch

lord castellant or Knight incantor doesnt matter

chamber item

seq

seq

liberators

6 kitty cats

5 evocators

cleansing phalanx

 

 

so we lose long range hero killing ability. Theres even a justification dropping the stardrake for a celestant prime and taking a spellweaver or heraldor but we gain sweet sweet infinite command points oh baby

 

so if we look at odds. In the first list we have a 33% to get at least one cp each time we spend. So when we buff our dracolines with 2 attacks we likely are gaining one additional cp for more attacks. Nice. 
 

or in the second just adding the aetherquartz we have a 44% to get one and 11% to get two. So thats 55% of the time we are getting our cp back. Skys the limit now. 
 

pop off kitty cats pop off.

Its a heavy price though. But i love it

 

 

 

[Memnoch]

2 hours ago, Milano said:

Im currently painting my own kitties list. Glad you brought it up. Ever thought about adding a second caster and a comet? Something like that: 
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline 
Knight-Heraldor
Knight-Incantor 
Lord-Castellant 
5 x Sequitors 
5 x Sequitors 
5 x Sequitors 
6 x Evocators on Dracolines
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows 
3 x Aetherwings 
Everblaze Comet
Total: 1980 / 2000

This list is not far from the list I'm working on. Just need to finish painting the second half of my Dracolines.

Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline
Knight-Incantor
Knight-Incantor
Lord-Veritant
5 x Liberators
5 x Liberators
5 x Liberators
6 x Evocators on Dracolines
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows
3 x Aetherwings
3 x Aetherwings
Everblaze Comet
Total: 1980/2000

I want to try this in Anvils though, I think it could be interesting.

[Kelsicle]

Great thread! This is the kind of list I am building towards after picking up the Sacrosanct Battleforce so I'm glad to see some discussion about it!

My competitive list is similar to above, with LAoCD, Castellant, Heraldorm Lord Ordinator, 4 Ballistas, 6 Dracoline and 15 Sequitors as Battleline.

This one is probably less effective, but will pack a punch when I can get all the Evocators into combat:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)

Battleline
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields

Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)
10 x Evocators (440)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113
 

[Turragor]

8 hours ago, Lucur said:

Knight Vexillor to port the cats back "to base" for buffing after they nuked their initial target.

I love this idea it's a really interesting "boomerang" concept. One question - given their absurd movement (for SC) aren't they going to be able to get where they need to go anyway? And if you eliminate the right target first (the toughest), the 2nd on the target order shouldn't require as many buffs as it's less threat?

4 hours ago, Sleepa said:

I just really prefer Sequitors, and since I'm running a LA as my general, I'm definitely using them

This is one of the big strengths of a list like this for me. I'm sitting messing with Starcast lists just to give me an excuse to finish painting 15 Sequitors and get rid of the 15 libs but to do so I need a LA general and that's just a bad way to play the lists I make.

[Sleepa]

32 minutes ago, Memnoch said:

Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline

Knight-Incantor
Knight-Incantor
Lord-Veritant
5 x Liberators
5 x Liberators
5 x Liberators
6 x Evocators on Dracolines
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows
3 x Aetherwings
3 x Aetherwings
Everblaze Comet
Total: 1980/2000

Any thought to trying Quicksilver Swords and Prismatic Palisade as an alternative to Comet, to give you the 30 extra points to buy an extra CP?
Anvils lists really want that banked CP for their command ability.

11 minutes ago, Kelsicle said:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators
Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
Battleline
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)
10 x Evocators (440)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 1980 / 2000

I'd almost suggest going Hammers of Sigmar with this list, and swapping out your Castellant and Incantor for Gavriel and a Knight Vexillor.

Then you could deploy your General, Heraldor, Kitties, and two units of Sequitors; while keeping Gav, the Vexillor, your foot Evos and your last unit of Sequitors in Azyr for the pincer deep strike. That would force your opponent to either deploy very far back, or very spread out, which could give you the opportunity to control the tempo of the battle. 

[readercolin]

Personally, my most successful kitty list has been the following:

Celestial Vindicators
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline
Knight-Heraldor
Lord-Ordinator
Knight-Incantor
3x 5 Sequitors
6 Evocators on Celestial Dracolines
4x Celestar Ballista
Command Point

Followed by this list:

Anvils of Heldenhammer
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline
Knight-Heraldor
Knight-Vexilor
Knight-Incantor
3x 5 Sequitors
6 Evocators on Celestial Dracolines
9 Vanguard Raptor's with Longstrike Crossbows

With the vindicators list, I generally put the ballista's in the sky so that way I can drop them and the ordinators close to the target and then clear a path so that the kitties can get in and obliterate whatever they are aiming for.  The anvils list instead takes the raptors and uses them to take out key support pieces and hopes that the kitties can clean up the pieces afterwards.

A few comments about other ideas that have been posted:

Comet.  Everyone loves the comet, and its great at chipping in some mortal wounds at range.  However, I find myself with insufficient space to run the comet points wise, and while my dice love me when making attack rolls and saving rolls, they hate casting spells for me.  Without any bonuses to cast it, I find the comet just too unreliable on its own.  On the other hand, a lot of our other options (longstrikes, ballista's, etc.) are also unreliable in small numbers, but become more reliable when you take more of them.  This is why I tend to concentrate my power on one gameplan rather than diversifying.

Cogs.  Going back to my dice not liking me casting spells, I find casting cogs to be too unreliable.  Re-rolling saves and getting an extra cast is nice, but then you need to sit near the cogs to continue getting use out of them.  All of my casters like to move around the board too much, which then feels like a waste of points.

Castellent.  I could see dropping the incantor from my list for a castellent.  Some matchups that will be better.  Others, it will be worse.  Locally I find having the easy unbind is better (especially since castellent cares about the modified rolls, which means rend screws me up).

Foot Evocators.  Without going with a Gav-bomb, I've never been that fond of foot evocators.  Yes, they will ****** over whatever they hit (usually), but they are sooo slow.  This means that they usually end up eating chaff, or getting stuck away from where the fighting is occurring.  This is actually a big reason why I like evo-kitties - they have the mobility to get to where I need them when I need them.

Stardrakes.  I like them - they are dragons.  However, they are so points hungry that you really also have to drop the sequitors to liberators, and they also really like staunch defender.  I just don't have enough models painted up to play these guys and get a more definitive opinion on trying to run them alongside the kitties rather than as their own independent starcast list.

[Memnoch]

8 hours ago, Sleepa said:

Any thought to trying Quicksilver Swords and Prismatic Palisade as an alternative to Comet, to give you the 30 extra points to buy an extra CP?
Anvils lists really want that banked CP for their command ability.

I hadn't thought about it but that is an idea. However, one of the reason I like the Comet is that it can't be used against me as the Swords could for example. But it is a really good point about the CPs. I could drop an Aetherwing unit for the extra CP possibly.

[Milano]

8 hours ago, readercolin said:

Personally, my most successful kitty list has been the following:

Great feedback. Haven't seen kitties in our local tournament meta tough..just coincidence or are kitty lists not that competitive in the end? 

[Lucur]

Kottycators aren't super competitive, they can certainly do okay though. 3-2 should be in it if piloted well, that was from before the latest tones however, tzeentch would likely be a very unfavorable matchup while likely being often seen in tourneys.

@ turragor:

The issue is more in the hero phase ranges, especially manipulating cogs, Castellant and Heraldor. After the cats got a run and charge off, they tend to be too far off by the next hero phase (which is where i originally had a block of Sequitors who love those same buffs and extra move from cogs).

[Raffonerd]

18 hours ago, Milano said:

Im currently painting my own kitties list. Glad you brought it up. Ever thought about adding a second caster and a comet? Something like that: 
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline 
Knight-Heraldor
Knight-Incantor 
Lord-Castellant 
5 x Sequitors 
5 x Sequitors 
5 x Sequitors 
6 x Evocators on Dracolines
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows 
3 x Aetherwings 
Everblaze Comet
Total: 1980 / 2000

I will do: Tempest lords, drop 5 sequitors for 5 liberators and insert relictor (traslocation) and extra cp. Perfect storm list.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Raffonerd

[Milano]

@Raffonerd Which Hero would you swap for the Relictor?

[readercolin]

8 hours ago, Milano said:

Great feedback. Haven't seen kitties in our local tournament meta tough..just coincidence or are kitty lists not that competitive in the end? 

Prior to the December FAQ that lowered their prices, kitties were just too expensive.  I was still running them prior to that because I liked the models, but at 100 points per model, they were overpriced, even by stormcast standards.  Dropping 40 points off a unit meant dropping 80 points off of a group of 6, which is almost enough to get an entire extra unit (or swap some underperforming units for better ones).  However, that was less than 2 months ago.  If anyone was testing kitties, they probably started with testing a unit of 3, and at 3 kitties they definitely underperform.  If I didn't love the model, I wouldn't have bothered running 6 after seeing how 3 performed when I first started playing them.

I would be willing to bet that you aren't seeing them locally just because people already had an opinion of them being overpriced from prior to the december changes, and not enough people have dived in to test them out since then.  Additionally, the only competitive stormcast army recently has been shootcast, and kitties don't really fit well into the traditional shootcast list.

This doesn't mean that kitties are competitive - someone would have to take them to a tournament and test that out.  But I do think that they are competitive enough that you could take them to a tournament and do 3-2 or 4-1 if you know what you are doing.

[Raffonerd]

18 minutes ago, Milano said:

@Raffonerd Which Hero would you swap for the Relictor?

Comet, then swap 5 sequi for 5 lib and getting the CP.

[Lucur]

20 hours ago, readercolin said:

Prior to the December FAQ that lowered their prices, kitties were just too expensive.  I was still running them prior to that because I liked the models, but at 100 points per model, they were overpriced, even by stormcast standards.  Dropping 40 points off a unit meant dropping 80 points off of a group of 6, which is almost enough to get an entire extra unit (or swap some underperforming units for better ones).  However, that was less than 2 months ago.  If anyone was testing kitties, they probably started with testing a unit of 3, and at 3 kitties they definitely underperform.  If I didn't love the model, I wouldn't have bothered running 6 after seeing how 3 performed when I first started playing them.

I would be willing to bet that you aren't seeing them locally just because people already had an opinion of them being overpriced from prior to the december changes, and not enough people have dived in to test them out since then.  Additionally, the only competitive stormcast army recently has been shootcast, and kitties don't really fit well into the traditional shootcast list.

This doesn't mean that kitties are competitive - someone would have to take them to a tournament and test that out.  But I do think that they are competitive enough that you could take them to a tournament and do 3-2 or 4-1 if you know what you are doing.

The same is true for me, i bought them for the looks, then tried to get them to work.

I think a set of three at the current points is a good unit on its own.  ot worth investing a ton of buffs, but certainly good to go after the flanks. You'd need some other hammer or workhorse, ofc.

[Iteken]

Awesome! I stumbled upon this thread as I'm in the process of painting up my first addition to the Soul Wars box - Evo's on Dracs.  I bought them and some Prosecutors because both look cool and can't wait to start throwing the both around the field.

 

I am thinking to pick up a few boxes of Vanguard Raptors and Aether wings next and get to grips with them, before adding more ThunderCats and a LAoCD ?  How about the named boss lady, are there specific reasons the LA is superior ?

 

 

[Iteken]

5 hours ago, Iteken said:

 How about the named boss lady, are there specific reasons the LA is superior ?

Scratch that - Can't edit my post but using powers of reading, ii see exactly why - There is no Pack Leader ability on Astreia Solbright so that's why.  Might use the model as a LAoCD anyway as she looks amazing then swap some bits out from the spare Dracolien sprues.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Iteken

[Sleepa]

8 hours ago, Iteken said:

I am thinking to pick up a few boxes of Vanguard Raptors and Aether wings next and get to grips with them, before adding more ThunderCats and a LAoCD ?  How about the named boss lady, are there specific reasons the LA is superior ?

Astreia Solbright is also locked into Hammers of Sigmar, so she wouldn't benefit from the abilities of any other Stormhost; nor can she be given a command trait (same way she can't take a mount trait). It's really too bad all the Stormcast named characters are Hammers of Sigmar. I only ever see people field Gav, and the occasional Vandus.

The base LAoCD has a pretty mediocre warscroll spell, and yet Astreia's is somehow much worse? She has the command ability of a LAoGC, which is fine, but not the reason you'd take a LA on a Dracoline. She honestly probably the worst of all LA variants. Even though the LA on foot has the most dubious command ability in the book, they still unlock Sequitor battleline for 160 points, and can benefit from Stormhosts and command traits. 

It doesn't help that aside from Gav, there is nothing desirable about the other named characters in SC. Vandus has great abilities, but he's honestly over-costed by at least 100 points

[Iteken]

 Thank you.  I'm very new to all of this, and was a little confused about how underwhelming all the Named heroes looked, but we get Sequitors, and wizards on dragons so i guess you can't have everything.

I'm working on painting this lot up for a slow-grow league event next month - but wonder already if LAoCD+3 ThunderCats is overkill, and a KAoGC would make it all a little bit more balanced?  

Quote

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Command Trait: Staunch Defender
- Celestial Staves (Artefact): Mindlock Staff
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Knight-Heraldor (100)
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)

Total: 980 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 53

It fits together so beautifully ❤️.  Replacing the Heraldor with a Lord Castellant is neater, but loses some utility and casting.

Rough plan is to Scions drop the Hurricanes and a unit of Sequitors when needed to harry Blobs and nab objectives, and use the Cats as the wandering troubleshooters they like to be. Nothing fancy at this scale.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Iteken