Negative to Positive: Tactics vs Disciples of Tzeentch

[Chumphammer]

Hi All,

With all the negativity around, how about we try and do something positive and put some actual tactics VS DOT down to help those people not knowing what to expect?

Things like: 

Strengths:

Weaknesses:

Things to watch out for:

Things to do to avoid turn 1 Alpha Strike: 

Please don't just turn it into another whinge fest on DoT need FAQ/Fixing. Lets try and make this useful! 

[Koala]

What a great Idea.

Let me Beginn.

General Comments: 

DoT - as with most Chaos armys - has an insane range of units to choose from. So it is entirely possible to meet Archaon supported by a horde of Beastmen and it all counts as "Tzeentch". For practical reasons i will only consider the units from the Battletome Disciples of Tzeentch and obvious additions.

 

Strenghts:

- Lots of Shooting (seriously!)

- a Lot of spellcraft, many ways to deal MW

- great synergies ( mostly deamon side)

- many subfactions which offer strong boni

- Access to both heavy infantery as well as fast units

- Fate mechanic offers a unique way of forcing positive dice throws.

- Summoning mechanic

 

Weaknesses: 

- Army needs heavy synergies - if a piece goes missing scary becomes average.

- synergies Split the Army apart - deamon or Arcanite/Mortal

-deamons lack heavy CC hitters (horrors can tank quite well, though)

- Arcanites are more well rounded but have less extreme Shooting/casting

- most units have a specific weakness/counterplay

- Summoning is mostly weak.

- most heroes hit way below their weight class

 

Things to watch out for:

Horrors: damaging them "a bit" will only make them stronger. Hit them hard ( 16+ wounds, 13+with rend) or not at all!

Fatemaster: not scary on his own but his "reroll To Hit within 9" " is an insane command ability. Also quite hard to kill.

Flamers: 10 shots 18" 4+ / 3+ D3 Damage. 120pts. Yeah, they are the current boogeyman! Can improve their to hit several ways and get rend1 with a sub faction. A bit squishy and weak in CC but probably not enough. Oh and they have 9" move and fly. So be careful - they can probably T1 hit your guys and are decent at sniping characters!

Gaunt Summoner on disc:

This one is basically a gamble. 

If the Tzeentch Player can activate him before the enemy kills him ( 6hp, 6+) he gets a decent casting hero and 200pts of units for 260pts.   Quite unlikely but If you ever see the chance to take him out / surround him before he summoned his unit: do it!

 

Generally Check if the Aura conditions are met. There is a lot of "completely within 9"/12") going on and the Tzeentch player will want to build his personal death star.

 

What to do against T1 Alpha Strike

At 2k Points/changehost one of his units (flamers or a big infantery unit in cc) will probably be able to hit you whatever you do. But in most cases: remember the Flamer threat range of 9"move and 18" to shoot and remember to screen. Without Support DoT units are only half as dangerous as they seem so the dreaded T1/T2 Double Turn might be far more scary than the Alpha Strike!

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

Just a black mod hat post here - this thread is going to be super helpful for people who are struggling playing against Tzeentch.  Can we keep this focused on tactics and not complaints or ideas that aren't viable.  I've just tided things up to aid this.

[DerWaffle]

Big thing is tzeentch can layer on to hit debuffs like crazy, particularly daemon-side. 

Locus aura, plus the conflagration command trait that works vs shooting trait is one, and it's not hard to fit a good portion of army in there. 

Changeling can do their thing in the enemy hero phase. 

The you've got arcane suggestion and treason of tzeentch. 

Lotta ways to kneecap big units. 

[Dead Scribe]

Let me be more constructive since I got moderated and a warning for perhaps a too harsh response.

You have to go into this game knowing your environment.  Let me be clear that the current tzeentch competitive build is not something you can take a casual build against and realistically expect to do well against, no matter how good you are.

You have to also take some responsibility for your gameplay by creating an appropriate list.  That means if you like armies like the goblins, you are going to have a lot harder time fighting tzeentch (same as fighting triple keepers, etc).

You have to be able to take their synergies down.  They are a tanky tanky army that you have to be able to do a lot of damage to to mitigate their free splitting wounds.  They have destiny dice which is essentially like having a mini set of loaded dice to guarantee you success for a certain number of rolls (good players will make them their critical rolls).  

I found the best way to fight them is to have a competitive powered army with a high degree of damage that it can inflict, and get on the heroes which can't fight very well and take them down.  The rest of the army follows suit. 

But if you're not taking a competitive list, just like if you are facing competitive triple keepers or flesh eater courts or any of these other competitive lists, you're going to struggle a lot.  This is not a game where lists can just do well against other lists because of points.   Competitive lists operate at a much higher level than their 2000 points suggest.  A 2000 point casual list vs a 2000 point competitive tzeentch or triple keepers build is really a 2000 point vs a 4000 point game for all intents and purposes.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Dead Scribe

[Chumphammer]

Great input so far. Hopefully helps people!

What would people say are targets of priority? 

Ie: Gaunt Summoner if he hasnt summoned yet

[Phasteon]

10 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Great input so far. Hopefully helps people!

What would people say are targets of priority? 

Ie: Gaunt Summoner if he hasnt summoned yet

Get rid of those flamers. 

If you let those 36 shots coming from a 12-man unit fire more than once you will regret it. 

Also: Dont touch Horrors except you can kill all Pinks, otherwise you give him extra Blues via DD autopass 1. (D6x2)

I‘d say kill that LoC to stop teleportation but depending on his list its more important to shut down the other threats first. 

 

[willange]

2 hours ago, Phasteon said:

Also: Dont touch Horrors except you can kill all Pinks, otherwise you give him extra Blues via DD autopass 1. (D6x2)

Slightly off-topic, but doesn't DD autopass on 1 not work anymore?  

EDIT: Nevermind.  New pink text in FAQ specifically says it works.

Edited February 13, 2020 by willange

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

What about specific factions Tzeentch might struggle with?

With Tzeentch coming soon to my local gaming group we’ve been talking which armies we have that might present harder match ups for them.  One we’ve been discussing a lot has been Khorne (posted a list we discussed on that thread).  Basic thinking was:

1) lots of cheap unbinds, including ones that get bonuses to the roll or deal back damage

2) no spell casting to feed into Tzeentch summoning - but plenty of prayers that can hit them back and/or buff Khorne units

3) cheap chaff for screening

lack of shooting to snipe their Heroes and thus breakdown their buffs an obvious drawback.

We also have KO, Mawtribes, and FEC that we’re debating what an anti-Tzeentch list for would look like...

[Inquisitorsz]

9 hours ago, willange said:

Slightly off-topic, but doesn't DD autopass on 1 not work anymore?  

Yes it does, the FAQ was updated. 

Note that it triggers the Pink Horror Icon Bearer on a 1 (which is what I assume you meant), thus auto passing the battleshock test and bring D6 horrors back. 
The 1 (or any other number) doesn't auto pass by itself. 
For example, it won't automatically save any other unit. You still add the casulities to the 1. 
It's only the Pink Horror icon bearer ability that still works with a DD of 1.  

[Inquisitorsz]

7 hours ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

What about specific factions Tzeentch might struggle with?

With Tzeentch coming soon to my local gaming group we’ve been talking which armies we have that might present harder match ups for them.  One we’ve been discussing a lot has been Khorne (posted a list we discussed on that thread).  Basic thinking was:

1) lots of cheap unbinds, including ones that get bonuses to the roll or deal back damage

2) no spell casting to feed into Tzeentch summoning - but plenty of prayers that can hit them back and/or buff Khorne units

3) cheap chaff for screening

lack of shooting to snipe their Heroes and thus breakdown their buffs an obvious drawback.

We also have KO, Mawtribes, and FEC that we’re debating what an anti-Tzeentch list for would look like...

I think any list (within reason) can be anti tzeentch if you play it right.  
Knowing their tricks and threats is the big thing. 
I beat a 20pink horror, 12 flamer eternal conflag changehost with sylvaneth at Cancon.   
Admittedly, perhaps that was due to my opponent's mistakes or being unfamiliar with a new book.... but it was also only my second game with my Sylvaneth.  
I pretty much ignored the 20 Horrors, hunted down the LOC first and then went after the other heroes. I killed the flamers whenever I could. 
I don't think my opponent used his teleports and flamers very well. The 3 hunters he blew up just got resummoned by Alarielle anyway.  

Realisitically in the changehost demon lists, the big things are large blocks of pink horrors and flamers. The flamers are the threats, the horrors hold objectives.  
Everything else isn't necessarily that far above the power curve. 
So if you can deal with a tanky horde unit and somehow counter the glass cannon shooting of the flamers, you'll be competitive.  

Sniping heroes is a decent tactic against almost any AoS army. No different against Tzeentch. If you can comfortably kill all the pink horrors in one combat then you'll be fine there too. You don't have to wipe out the whole 50 wound unit... you just have to kill the icon bearer to stop them coming back. Once he's dead, the only way they can continue being annoying is either via the Fold Reality spell (so keep an unbind handy for that) or something like Emerald Lifeswarm.
Still, those are only bringing back a few models and it's before the combat phase.... so just kill all the pinks again and they can't auto pass the battleshock anymore. 
Other than the normal command abiltiy everyone gets.... but that doesn't bring models back, and uses CPs. 

The flamers can be a big problem, ideally, you'd want a few small chaff untis to push them away from your key units and make sure they can't teleport close enough to kill you. That being said, sometimes you'll just have to bait them and take the hit. Once they've jumped close and shot something, they're usually wide open for a counter charge and a quick cleanup. Multiple smaller units will make their targetting choice harder... 
Eg. take 4x3 kurnoth hunters instead of 2x6.   
That way when they wipe out 1 unit you've only lost 25% of your hunters not 50%, and you've got another unit nearby to go kill them.  

Just some general thoughts after versing them a few times and watching some games. In a changehost, the LOC is the secondary target... he's a decent force multiplier and is required for the teleport to work.... so in objective based games, you want to shut that teleport down so they can't steal anything off you late game.  

Tzeentch does have a lot of different builds though. The flamer heavy eternal conflag list was very strong pre-FAQ.... now, I think there's lots of other viable lists and they don't all counter the same way. So that's something to consider, you may come up against a mortal army without a LOC (like 5th place Ash's list at Cancon) and that will play very differently than the pink horror/flamer spam lists. 

[Forrix]

15 hours ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

We also have KO, Mawtribes, and FEC that we’re debating what an anti-Tzeentch list for would look like...

I think KO could do pretty good against Tzeentch, Horrors aside, Tzeentch is very squishy so KO being able to apply rend -1 or -2 damage easily to flamers and characters is going to hurt. Remember they changed it so rend effects destiny dice and Tzeentch is almost entirely on 5+ or 6+ saves (not counting STD stuff but doesn't seem to be the issue right now). Despite people calling Changehost a 1 drop most of the competitive Changehost lists I've seen include a fatemaster and a Gaunt Summoner putting them at 3 drops (though with the FAQ changes Tzeentch might change the meta lists). If they are taking the Daemonfire Darkrift from STD they will need that GS to cast it btw.

KO could get down to a 1 to 2 drop with the Grunstock Escort Wing and Barak-Urbaz (which also gives extra gold for rerolls) or the Iron Sky. Taking the first turn would allow KO to fairly reliably kill the GS before he gets a chance to summon and get the drop on the flamers and support characters*. Obviously screening could be an issue but with Fly High and 18+ inch range on a lot of their stuff I still see KO doing a horrific amount of damage. The only major issue I see is producing the raw damage needed to take out Horrors since you'll still need to take objectives but that will depend on the scenario and hey, Horrors aren't auto-passing battleshock anymore without characters.

*Killing the fatemaster and exalted flamers will severely diminish flamers' damage against low model count units/characters but flamers are so squishy I'd just shoot them first anyways unless for some reason I can't get in range of the flamers but I could the fatemaster/exalted flamers.