AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[Popisdead]

On 10/2/2020 at 7:27 PM, Zeblasky said:

And yea, I do not take Treelord as a killer here. While his damage and tankiness are actually quite respectable for his cost, his main role is to be a distraction carnifex in the enemy flank/backline (disrupting ranged untis or disabling most teleport abilities or spells by combat) or much more often just a screen for my Sisters of the Watch.  

The Treelord is 180 points?  for 160 the Sisters of the Watch are a more effective distraction carnifex (yes I know what that archetype is)....  he isn't going to  cap objectives as effectually as 10 Ungors which are 1/3 his cost.  

It becomes less of a "what am I looking at for tools or mechanics to have on hand" and more "points efficiency is too disparate".  

As a guy who owns maybe 11 treemen of some form or shape, trust me I miss TLs being good (oh 6th ed,..).  Drycha isn't bad in LC but I think the Durthu is just better in Sylvaneth as are Ancients and TLs (when they are used).   Some form of defensible viability would be great.  Reduced Ws taken, hard to-wound or something.  I'm not sure the 4+ ASF is really something worth fishing for.  

[Zeblasky]

17 hours ago, Popisdead said:

The Treelord is 180 points?  for 160 the Sisters of the Watch are a more effective distraction carnifex (yes I know what that archetype is)....  he isn't going to  cap objectives as effectually as 10 Ungors which are 1/3 his cost.  

It becomes less of a "what am I looking at for tools or mechanics to have on hand" and more "points efficiency is too disparate".  

As a guy who owns maybe 11 treemen of some form or shape, trust me I miss TLs being good (oh 6th ed,..).  Drycha isn't bad in LC but I think the Durthu is just better in Sylvaneth as are Ancients and TLs (when they are used).   Some form of defensible viability would be great.  Reduced Ws taken, hard to-wound or something.  I'm not sure the 4+ ASF is really something worth fishing for.  

You can't throw 10 Sisters of the Watch in melee to screen the rest of them and bog down the enemy force in a deployment zone. But you can do that with Treelord (and a Dragon aaaand a Frost Birb with lucky enough charge, just drown the opponent in Behemoths).  10 wounds at 5+ and 12 wounds at 3+ with no battleshock is an extremely huge difference. Add to that Attuned to Nature and occasional Life Surge and you have quite a tough tree, which on average still deals the same damage in your turn as 10 Sisters shooting (and Treelord will also fight in the opponet combat phase of course). Sure, in some cases Treelord might not even survive into your next hero phase, but he does not really need to - only 40 SotW need to remain untouched.

And as I've said already, I wont usually need Treelord on objective. I need it holding the enemy force down before the objective (and before SotW firing lines), I got Sisters of the Thorn for control and extra suport.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Zeblasky

[Popisdead]

20 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

You can't throw 10 Sisters of the Watch in melee to screen the rest of them and bog down the enemy force in a deployment zone. But you can do that with Treelord (and a Dragon aaaand a Frost Birb with lucky enough charge, just drown the opponent in Behemoths).  10 wounds at 5+ and 12 wounds at 3+ with no battleshock is an extremely huge difference. Add to that Attuned to Nature and occasional Life Surge and you have quite a tough tree, which on average still deals the same damage in your turn as 10 Sisters shooting (and Treelord will also fight in the opponet combat phase of course). Sure, in some cases Treelord might not even survive into your next hero phase, but he does not really need to - only 40 SotW need to remain untouched.

And as I've said already, I wont usually need Treelord on objective. I need it holding the enemy force down before the objective (and before SotW firing lines), I got Sisters of the Thorn for control and extra suport.

 

 

Um,.. well you sort of can.  First,.. it's good to look at things your way.  I agree that building the tools in works.  And I really like you are looking at things differently.  I'm all for hearing how it works out.  The problem is that means it isn't a real comparison like you've done.  You are comparing 160 points of sisters to 650 points (treelord, dragon, Frostphoenix).  If so then 50 SotW are going to do some serious leg work compared to what you've listed.  

Treelords don't put out the same dmg as SotW.  That just won't happen otherwise you would see 4 Treelord lists in Sylvaneth but instead we see often comments about how effective SotW shooting is. 

To be honest I've seen two occurrences of Treelords in lists in the last 4 years.  And they were recently after the points drop in some variation of Lord of the Clan or whatever the formation that has two TLAs and a TL.  

If you want to use a Treelord by all means use them, share bat reps.   If you are making them work that's great.  But they are an ineffective unit and you have to work to make them useful.  

 

[AthelLoren]

Anybody gonna go for Mega-gargants in LC?

[Grimmlock619]

6 minutes ago, AthelLoren said:

Anybody gonna go for Mega-gargants in LC?

Hmm, the CA would be cool on them but I have a feeling that base if bigger than 6" so no deep striking them. 

[Popisdead]

They seem like a good fit with some healing but I think the points costs of them is prohibitive as the traits and abilities in the battle tome make them better.  

 

I also think converting them to something to fit your army is a WAY better idea.  Like build a massive shaggoth and proxy it as a mega-gargant in Beasts of Chaos.  OR make a massive Treelord in Sylvaneth/LC. or obscene Slaanesh monster.  

In Greywater Fastness you could make a pretty neat Siege or defence construct.

[dlanogetter]

Hi all, thanks for the interesting read. I'm looking to start playing AoS having never played any of the GW games before. I've only been following the fluff and artwork for the last 20 years. I'm doing some research to try and put together a small, functional ~1000pt army list to start. With this in hand I can start purchasing some units and keep wastage down.

I liked the idea of Sylvaneth but missed the wood elf influence of the old world.

So I've been researching Cities of Sigmar with LC allegiance, Wanderer heavy base and maybe some Sylvaneth to join. I have the core book now and with a novice grasp of the rules I believe I can put a legal list together. I do not however have any idea whether it would be competent.

It doesn't have to be amazing or meta, the looks, fluff and feel of the army are important to me too. I would however like it to be somewhat competent for casual games with my friends.

I'm working with a Nomad Prince General, some units of Eternal Guard for battle line, some Sisters of the Watch for some shooty and maybe some Kurnoth hunters for hurty. I'm pretty flexible. Would love some feedback and advice.

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Nomad Prince (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan
- Artefact: Wardroth Horn
Sorceress (90)
- Lore of Leaves: Cage of Thorns
- City Role: General's Adjutant

Battleline
10 x Eternal Guard (130)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
10 x Eternal Guard (130)
10 x Sisters of the Watch (160)
10 x Sisters of the Watch (160)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (190)
- Greatswords

Total: 980 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 65
 

 

[Popisdead]

8 hours ago, dlanogetter said:

Leaders
Nomad Prince (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan
- Artefact: Wardroth Horn
Sorceress (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant

Battleline
10 x Eternal Guard (130)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (190)
- Greatswords

 

 

I don't think the Wardroth Horn is a good choice with only 3 KHs.  If you had 12 then sure.  I would recommend the spear.  Helps keep your NP alive (make him the general) and with his 4A he becomes a better combat fighter and he's no slouch. 

Have you considered Darkswords for your Retinue?  Cheaper unit to stab as I don't think the Sorceress is getting her bonus here and in which case  you may as well take the Battlemage instead if you keep the second 10 EG.  In which case a Ghur Battlemage could help get the KHs into combat with the spell.  

I don't think you have a bad list.  I think there are just a couple tweaks.  It isn't dissimilar from my starting point.   

[dlanogetter]

Thanks Popisdead,

Good point re: the battlemage, I saw it as a valid entry in the warscroll builder but couldn't find the model on the GW store, perhaps it is discontinued? I only found a battlemage on griffon which for 90pts I suspected was different to the one in the builder. 

I wanted to take an Arch-Rev from the Sylvaneth to help buff the KH's but I'll need another CoS unit to enable the 1-4 ratio. This will push me above 1000pts. I can take away the KH and just put in a CoS native behemoth or take another unit and go slightly above 1000pts. 

1K isnt a hard cap as I suspect my friends are closer to 1500-2K points anyway. 

I'm not too fussed, especially if it gives me options to expand in future. 

 

[Popisdead]

18 hours ago, dlanogetter said:

Good point re: the battlemage, I saw it as a valid entry in the warscroll builder but couldn't find the model on the GW store, perhaps it is discontinued? I only found a battlemage on griffon which for 90pts I suspected was different to the one in the builder. 

I wanted to take an Arch-Rev from the Sylvaneth to help buff the KH's but I'll need another CoS unit to enable the 1-4 ratio. This will push me above 1000pts. I can take away the KH and just put in a CoS native behemoth or take another unit and go slightly above 1000pts. 

 

If you start going down the Arch Rev route you should consider Sylvaneth maybe.  Drycha is a good addition but pricy at this points level.  To be honest I think there aren't many Sylvaneth units that stand alone do well in LC that aren't better in Sylvaneth.  Which is depressing.  Granted the heal per turn can provide some good shennaigans.  

Consider the Hurricanum for a behemoth.  It adds so much utility.

 

The Battlemage is a 4-mage kit,.. or 2-model?  I use a Truthsayer from the 2001 Albion era and have some 2005 era WE Spellsingers also.  And a 1987 Wood Elf mage that I'll paint up.  It really doesn't matter and you may find CoS to be THE converter's or old-guy army as you can bring along anything and mostly make use of it.

[Reeseth]

On 10/15/2020 at 2:44 AM, dlanogetter said:

I wanted to take an Arch-Rev from the Sylvaneth to help buff the KH's but I'll need another CoS unit to enable the 1-4 ratio. This will push me above 1000pts. I can take away the KH and just put in a CoS native behemoth or take another unit and go slightly above 1000pts. 

I was thinking aswell in start to build a 1000 points army and I faced the same problem: I dont have enough units to include 2 units of Sylvaneth. But... Could I just make one of the Sylv units an ally? Could this "solve" the problem?

[Reeseth]

Let me show the list I worked in. I'm looking for advice from more experienced players, so thank you in advance.

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Nomad Prince (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- Artefact: Spear of the Hunt

Battleline
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (130)
- Lore of Leaves: Cage of Thorns
20 x Sisters of the Watch (320)
20 x Sisters of the Watch (320)

Units
6 x Vanguard-Palladors (340)
- Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes

Total: 1530 / 2000
 

This is the "core" of the army. I'm pretty sure I want the Nomad Prince being my general so I can have 3 battlelines in form of 2 unit of Sis of the Watch (to do the pew-pew) and 1 Sis of the Thorn (to support my entire army with mobility).

I also like the combo of Spirit of Durthu + Vanguard-Palladors to be hidden in the path and alpha striking with a combination of shooting, melting away and charging with the Spear of the hunt. I was considering instead Palladors using the much more expensive Fulminators/Concussors or the cheaper Prosecutors, but I think that Palladors fit the role.

So this leave me with 470 spare points. What I feel that my army need is some kind of anvil and/or bodies to put in the battlegorund.  I'm considering this two options.

Option 1:

Anointed (100)
- City Role: General's Adjutant

20 x Phoenix Guard (320)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 470+1530 / 2000

I think phoenix guards are one of the best units in Cities, and I like the combo with an Anointed. Of course I lack the points for putting the Anointed in a top of a phoenix. No wizards in this list and still 50 spare points in a command point.

Option 2:

Battlemage (110)
- Lore of Leaves: Lifesurge
- Mortal Realm: Azyr

Sorceress (90)
- Lore of Leaves: Ironoak Skin
- City Role: General's Adjutant

20 x Black Guard (260)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)

Total: 460+1530 / 2000

So this option add wizards to the list, with the combo of Sorceress + Black Guard. I think that Black guard is much worse than the phoenix guard, and maybe 2 wizards is too much.

 

I feel that any of theese lists are well-rounded. Maybe there are more options (in Cities, Sylvaneth or StormCast) that I am unare of. Maybe we can tweak the list to fit better units or better numbers. Maybe I'm over estimating some combinations of units.

What do you think guys?

[Popisdead]

I like it.

[Ravenrei]

On 10/16/2020 at 4:48 PM, Reeseth said:

Let me show the list I worked in. I'm looking for advice from more experienced players, so thank you in advance.

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Nomad Prince (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan
Spirit of Durthu (300)
- Artefact: Spear of the Hunt

Battleline
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (130)
- Lore of Leaves: Cage of Thorns
20 x Sisters of the Watch (320)
20 x Sisters of the Watch (320)

Units
6 x Vanguard-Palladors (340)
- Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes

Total: 1530 / 2000
 

This is the "core" of the army. I'm pretty sure I want the Nomad Prince being my general so I can have 3 battlelines in form of 2 unit of Sis of the Watch (to do the pew-pew) and 1 Sis of the Thorn (to support my entire army with mobility).

I also like the combo of Spirit of Durthu + Vanguard-Palladors to be hidden in the path and alpha striking with a combination of shooting, melting away and charging with the Spear of the hunt. I was considering instead Palladors using the much more expensive Fulminators/Concussors or the cheaper Prosecutors, but I think that Palladors fit the role.

So this leave me with 470 spare points. What I feel that my army need is some kind of anvil and/or bodies to put in the battlegorund.  I'm considering this two options.

Option 1:

Anointed (100)
- City Role: General's Adjutant

20 x Phoenix Guard (320)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 470+1530 / 2000

I think phoenix guards are one of the best units in Cities, and I like the combo with an Anointed. Of course I lack the points for putting the Anointed in a top of a phoenix. No wizards in this list and still 50 spare points in a command point.

Option 2:

Battlemage (110)
- Lore of Leaves: Lifesurge
- Mortal Realm: Azyr

Sorceress (90)
- Lore of Leaves: Ironoak Skin
- City Role: General's Adjutant

20 x Black Guard (260)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)

Total: 460+1530 / 2000

So this option add wizards to the list, with the combo of Sorceress + Black Guard. I think that Black guard is much worse than the phoenix guard, and maybe 2 wizards is too much.

 

I feel that any of theese lists are well-rounded. Maybe there are more options (in Cities, Sylvaneth or StormCast) that I am unare of. Maybe we can tweak the list to fit better units or better numbers. Maybe I'm over estimating some combinations of units.

What do you think guys?

One small point - the pistols on Palladors have range 9, so you will not be able to shoot with them if they deep strike (they have to be set up more than 9 inches away when they use the hidden in the path ability). You have to give them the javelins to be able to shoot with them after deep strike and then use the command ability. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Ravenrei

[Kiekeboe]

On 10/3/2020 at 4:27 AM, Zeblasky said:

P.S. I do vaguely remember reading about that somewhere, but I still don't get how Treelord stomp works versus Always Fights First. By logic they just cancel each other out, but it does not work that way, right?

Good read, thanks Especially the bit on the phoenix, hadn't thought of that thing as an immovable object like that.

With regards to your P.S.: You can treat those effects like  a stack. The last one to be applied goes first. Not sure which FAQ exactly this is in but it's in one. IDK for example fight first during the 3rd battleround, this effect is applied at the start of the round. Your treelord stomp effect is applied in the combat phase on top of that so you apply that effect over their fight first, making them fight last.

[Rhetoric]

Been playing around with an idea for a LC list.  
 

Drakesworn Templar

-General

-Spear of the Hunt

-Ironoak Artisan

 

Arch-Revenant

Nomad Prince

 

Eternal Guard (10)

Eternal Guard (10)

Eternal Guard (10)

Sisters of the Thorn

Sisters of Watch (10)

Fulminators (2)

Kurnoth Hunters (6)

 

Extra Command Point

[Lord of the Isle]

Have been thinking of this list as basics for Hallowheart but wondering if Living City might suit better...opinions?

Nomad Prince as general

Sorceress on Dragon

Sorceress on foot possibly x 2 if I can wangle it

Fleetmaster

Assassin

White Battlemage on Luminark

(Heroes are very negotiable. I gather Hurricana (?) are more popular than Luminarks but I am going to fight in a campaign in Hysh so this seems more fun)

10 Darkshards

10 Corsairs w handbows

20 Sisters of the Watch x 2

40 Corsairs w blades

5 Sisters of the Thorn x 2

10 Shadow Warriors

10 Executioners

16 Wildwood Rangers

10 tree revenants

Couple of Stormcasty things or maybe a Scourgerunner?

6 Blood Knight Mercs conceivably inc a vamp lord

 

[Popisdead]

17 hours ago, Rhetoric said:

Been playing around with an idea for a LC list.  
 

Drakesworn Templar

-General

-Spear of the Hunt

-Ironoak Artisan

 

Arch-Revenant

Nomad Prince

 

Eternal Guard (10)

Eternal Guard (10)

Eternal Guard (10)

Sisters of the Thorn

Sisters of Watch (10)

Fulminators (2)

Kurnoth Hunters (6)

 

Extra Command Point

If you have the models could be a good start.  I've had similar ideas about the Fulminators (or Decimators? I don't know SCE well).  

 

29 minutes ago, Lord of the Isle said:

 

16 Wildwood Rangers

...

6 Blood Knight Mercs conceivably inc a vamp lord

 

16 ?  

What are the allies giving you?

[Lord of the Isle]

6 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

 

16 ?  

What are the allies giving you?

Well I currently have 16 models with sufficiently huge swords to pass! Do you reckon should be more or fewer?

Blood Knights...well I love my models (mostly Brets w a Dogs of War merc general) and they’re much better heavy cav than Gryphs or Drakes...kinda thought they were scariest thing in army? Friendly opponents so shouldn’t present rules trouble

[Popisdead]

1 hour ago, Lord of the Isle said:

Well I currently have 16 models with sufficiently huge swords to pass! Do you reckon should be more or fewer?

Blood Knights...well I love my models (mostly Brets w a Dogs of War merc general) and they’re much better heavy cav than Gryphs or Drakes...kinda thought they were scariest thing in army? Friendly opponents so shouldn’t present rules trouble

Oh well okay,.. you can take Rangers in 10, 20, or 30.  In AoS I know of no mechanic to take 16.  10 should suffice, keep them back and they can take out a mid-level monster.  There is a rule that if you were to take say, 16 you had to pay for 20 models.  At which point I would suggest proxying even.

Well that,.. is indeed a super awesome rule of cool for Blood Knights.   I tip my hat to you good sir!  Maybe I'll look at that.  I was a fan of Mousillon Bretonnians way back in 6th edition.

To be honest in friendly games a soda pop can should suffice for models, so including Blood Knights, if you can think up the reason should be fine.  

[Lord of the Isle]

Love Mousillon too!

EDIT: Eying Lord Arcanum on winds aetheric Gryph-Charger and Knight-Questor for Stormcast support

Edited October 28, 2020 by Lord of the Isle

[Kiekeboe]

On 10/27/2020 at 2:17 AM, Rhetoric said:

Been playing around with an idea for a LC list.  
 

Spoiler

 

Drakesworn Templar

-General

-Spear of the Hunt

-Ironoak Artisan

 

Arch-Revenant

Nomad Prince

 

Eternal Guard (10)

Eternal Guard (10)

Eternal Guard (10)

Sisters of the Thorn

Sisters of Watch (10)

Fulminators (2)

Kurnoth Hunters (6)

 

Extra Command Point

 

 

 

I've played something similar to this minus the Kurnoth package, adding in Hurricanum+Knight Azyros and playing Durthu instead of Templar. I played 4 Fulminators and while their initial strike is amazing, they often remain in combat and the turn after when not charging their damage is simply pathetic for their points cost. I would strongly recommend Concussors. Their initial damage is only slightly lower than the Fulminators on the charge (mortal wounds make up for the damage gap you would expect simply comparing weapon profiles), and they do the exact same damage the turn after when not charging. 

The game plan is probably the same as what I had so I can confirm the list is absolutely fun to play, enjoy

Edited October 28, 2020 by Kiekeboe

[Popisdead]

How are you guys finding 10-man EG units?  

[Rhetoric]

4 hours ago, Kiekeboe said:

 

I've played something similar to this minus the Kurnoth package, adding in Hurricanum+Knight Azyros and playing Durthu instead of Templar. I played 4 Fulminators and while their initial strike is amazing, they often remain in combat and the turn after when not charging their damage is simply pathetic for their points cost. I would strongly recommend Concussors. Their initial damage is only slightly lower than the Fulminators on the charge (mortal wounds make up for the damage gap you would expect simply comparing weapon profiles), and they do the exact same damage the turn after when not charging. 

The game plan is probably the same as what I had so I can confirm the list is absolutely fun to play, enjoy

Thanks, I was looking at Concussors too.  I appreciate the anecdotal evidence.  I am almost done with my Sylvaneth army and have a Durthu to swap in/out for the Drakesworn Templar as well.  He was an option.  If this plays to its strengths, I’m glad it’s fun like you said.  Thanks for the advice!

[Kiekeboe]

14 hours ago, Rhetoric said:

Thanks, I was looking at Concussors too.  I appreciate the anecdotal evidence.  I am almost done with my Sylvaneth army and have a Durthu to swap in/out for the Drakesworn Templar as well.  He was an option.  If this plays to its strengths, I’m glad it’s fun like you said.  Thanks for the advice!

No problem, let me know how the Templar works! I've actually been looking to replace my Durthu with a Templar because I've noticed that Durthu's initial bang is amazing, but once he's slain his target he can easily spend 3 turns walking to his next target with his amazing 5" move. I'm thinking I'm going to be okay with lowering that initial damage a bit by grabbing a Templar and gaining a lot of movement freedom.

 

15 hours ago, Popisdead said:

How are you guys finding 10-man EG units?  

Better than I would expect, really. I play them in units of 10 as screens/home objective keepers while half the list does their deepstrike thing. More often than not I find them still alive after something hits them that should be killing them. And if they get to fight they'll most often deal some damage too, not too shabby. Their point cost is not ideal if you're only using them as a screen. If you want them for screening you'd rather have Ironbreakers which have the exact same 3+ save but for 110 points and don't have to stand still. I'm just here in Living City because Sylvaneth is broken in their own allegiance so I'd rather play EG because they fit the Sylvaneth theme better visually.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Kiekeboe