AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Enoby]

48 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Well DoK can still reroll their ward so totally fair

Fair or not, I don't think this FAQ was anything to do with balance but rather just sweeping rules changes to get every army "ready" for AoS 3. Things like Sylvaneth and BoC were nerfed a bit, but I don't think it was an attempt at balancing more just an attempt at straightening things out for the new edition.

Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen, but our Painbringer and Shardspeaker nerf for example was just collateral unfortunately. 

On the other hand, we got a buff in that our visage was made much much better, and in the future Coalition units may be battleline (just not in GHB 2021 unless that's FAQ'd) 

[azdimy]

7 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Fair or not, I don't think this FAQ was anything to do with balance but rather just sweeping rules changes to get every army "ready" for AoS 3. Things like Sylvaneth and BoC were nerfed a bit, but I don't think it was an attempt at balancing more just an attempt at straightening things out for the new edition.

Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen, but our Painbringer and Shardspeaker nerf for example was just collateral unfortunately. 

On the other hand, we got a buff in that our visage was made much much better, and in the future Coalition units may be battleline (just not in GHB 2021 unless that's FAQ'd) 

Agreed. It s just that not addressing the reroll of fanatical faith as part of those sweeping rules changes when all the other reroll saves got removed seems like someone is very protective of DoK army within GW

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Agreed. It s just that not addressing the reroll of fanatical faith as part of those sweeping rules changes when all the other reroll saves got removed seems like someone is very protective of DoK army within GW

Yeah, I will admit GW is sometimes a little protective of some armies - usually elf ones  (Though not Sylvaneth - I take it they're not elf enough)

I think, after a month or two of playing and everyone else having the chance to play AoS 3, I'm going to construct another survey on people's feelings about Slaanesh. It could be that we're considerably better than first thought, or that we're bin tier, or just kind of in the middle. After we've all calmed down and played a few games, I reckon we'll be in a decent position to give GW AoS 3 specific feedback.

It could be ignored again, but in GW's defence I can imagine they'd be super wary of any fan-based changes before the army has played in the new edition so they'd stick with their plan. That's not to say we will be listened to, but it's probably a higher chance. 

[Elazar The Glorified]

3 hours ago, Enoby said:

So the Painbringer nerfs suck... would be fine if they were 120 points but, well, Twinsouls or Hellstriders (either end of the spectrum) are now the much better choice.

But all is not lost thanks to this random and rather very strong buff to the dreadful visage:

So I think this is now a hot condender for our best endless spell - it casts on a 7 (and we have decent casting) and gives always strikes last. This is pretty huge.

This is definitely a huge boon. Especially in the context of definitely not being able to use Wildfire Taurus if we coalition in some Beasts (and it got nerfed too) the Dark Prince giveth and he taketh away.

Sadly, whilst Beasts of Chaos can no longer take Slaangor (???) we've had no such luck and are still lumbered with them! 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Elazar The Glorified

[Lurynsar]

Well I was going to give you updates to my last ten games and future changes planned. Instead I’m going to be going back to the drawing board. 

Wheels getting 4” of its move nerfed sucks. It’s 12” move made it actually useful. 

Painbringers are now 100% overcosted and unplayable as anything. The rerolls were literally the only thing they have going. 3+ saves is easy peasy to get, and play around. The reroll made them tarpits, as they had no damage output. I guess the good news is I don’t have to also pay 155 points for a Lord of Pain to make them Battleline because they’ll never see the table again. 

Gonna keep looking for the gems, but as Slickblade and Painbringers were my favourite models in the army; having both be unplayable just means I have a lot less interest in playing the faction as a whole. Might start a new army or focus on my Sylvaneth for the time being. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Lurynsar

[LeonBox]

4 minutes ago, Lurynsar said:

Painbringers are now 100% overcosted and unplayable as anything. The rerolls were literally the only thing they have going. 3+ saves is easy peasy to get, and play around. The reroll made them tarpits, as they had no damage output. I guess the good news is I don’t have to also pay 155 points for a Lord of Pain to make them Battleline because they’ll never see the table again. 

It is really baffling. I remember there being all this talk of our units being costed in preparation for 3.0 (given that our new models only got released, what, 4 months ago?) but if the additional points hikes didn't put that one to bed, then the Myrmidesh change did. It wouldn't be so bad if we could put them on 2+ with mystic shield/a CP, but that's pointless now with the cap on save rolls. What was the point of releasing new models and changing their warscroll abilities a mere 4 months later? And in the meantime the execrable Slaangors remain untouched? 

[Benkei]

I dont really understand why they removed Locus of Distraction and the Always Strikes Last rule from the Epitome just to reintroduce it now. Not complaining, it just seems GW doesnt know what to do with Slaanesh at all

Edited July 2, 2021 by Benkei

[Lurynsar]

Just now, LeonBox said:

It is really baffling. I remember there being all this talk of our units being costed in preparation for 3.0 (given that our new models only got released, what, 4 months ago?) but if the additional points hikes didn't put that one to bed, then the Myrmidesh change did. It wouldn't be so bad if we could put them on 2+ with mystic shield/a CP, but that's pointless now with the cap on save rolls. What was the point of releasing new models and changing their warscroll abilities a mere 4 months later? And in the meantime the execrable Slaangors remain untouched? 

To be fair; I didn’t jump on or believe the whole “we are priced for third”. It made no sense. 

And for a few of the units (most actually) I didn’t mind the price changes. I felt Painbringers were fair at 160 honesty. Slickblades felt bad, but everything else felt pretty okay. But this, this just means that 160 is about 50 points more than I’d ever pay for them. The rerolls were actually the only thing they have going for them. Taking those away means they went from A in my testing to maybe a C- at best. They literally aren’t playable now if you have any competitive aspirations. 

[LeonBox]

Also also regarding Shalaxi: her spell has even less utility than I realised. It gives +1 to hit and +1 to saves against heroes only. Her Cloak of Constriction gives +1 to saves versus heroes only. Since ne'er the twain shall stack, her spell basically gives +1 to hit (only useful on her claws, as her 1 spear attack already hits on 2s). Talk about kicking them when they're down. 

[LeonBox]

11 minutes ago, Benkei said:

I dont really understand why they removed Locus of Distraction amd the Always Strikes Last rule from the Epitome just to reintroduce it now. Not complaining, it just seems GW doesnt know what to do with Slaanesh at all

Am I missing something? I didn't see anything about the Epitome being altered with the FAQ. 

[Benkei]

So Wheels nerfed, Painbringers nerfed, Shalaxi nerfed, Shardspeaker nerfed, because they REALLY need the nerf. I get those were general changes, but they fact the just copy pasted everything and didnt even bother to think about how those changes affected each faction before adjusting the points (again with another indiscriminate copy paste) shows they dont care about game balance at all. This is just shameful coming from a comoany as big and veteram as GW.

 

I mean, whats even the point of Painbringers or Shalaxi now?

Edited July 2, 2021 by Benkei

[Enoby]

5 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Also also regarding Shalaxi: her spell has even less utility than I realised. It gives +1 to hit and +1 to saves against heroes only. Her Cloak of Constriction gives +1 to saves versus heroes only. Since ne'er the twain shall stack, her spell basically gives +1 to hit (only useful on her claws, as her 1 spear attack already hits on 2s). Talk about kicking them when they're down. 

I guess, to be fair, most heroes have rend so a +2 to save can actually help there. Not that this goes anyway to making them good by any stretch (and certainly not as good as rerolling) but there is some use. 

[Selpharia]

Much like points at the beginning of 9th, I suspect GW thinks of these changes as placeholders. Better to overcoat, lowering the barrier to entry, and overnerf than have a bunch of new stuff release that’s just wrecked by old stuff with weird combos

[KrispyXIV]

8 minutes ago, Benkei said:

So Painbringers nerfed, Shalaxi nerfed, Shardspeaker nerfed, because they REALLY need the nerf. I get those were general changes, but they fact they just copy pasted everything and didnt even bother to think about how those changes affected each faction before adjusting the points (again with another indiscriminate copy paste) shows they dont care about game balance at all. This is just shameful coming from a comoany as big and veteram as GW

From GWs perspective, we're Painbringers nerfed or buffed?

In 2E, Save modifiers were rare.  Lurid Haze was an exception rather than the norm.  Against Rend 2, a 4+ rerollable became 6+ rerollable and was... not very good.  Mathmatically, im almost positive it's not as good as 4+ with a +1 to save vs. Rend 2. 

If you add other modifiers into the equation, with Lurid Haze CA and All Out Defense and Mystic Shield at +1, it's actually fairly trivial to negate significant amounts of Rend - meaning that math wise, Painbringers with a built in +1 to save are probably better off than they were with rerolls in 2e vs any significant Rend.  3+ net after modifiers vs 5+ or 6+ rerollable.  

It only looks like a "nerf" because there was a middle period where people were playing 3e without the FAQ.  But the rerolls with 3rd Ed. Modifier stacking for saves never "actually existed" from GWs perspective.  Compare their durability to the same situations in 2E, and I suspect vs low Rend they're slightly worse off and better vs higher Rend. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[AngryPanda]

I think I’m officially done with AoS for a while now. First the disappointment from our original release, then the price bump (which I was able to get over and even admitted wasn’t as bad as it seemed). Now the nerf to painbringers.... it doesn’t end lol 

I’m pretty much convinced that GW is trying to sabotage HoS at this point. Why keep nerfing us? What did we do to deserve it? It’s just awful design, and I’m not buying into it. 

[Enoby]

32 minutes ago, Lurynsar said:

To be fair; I didn’t jump on or believe the whole “we are priced for third”. It made no sense. 

And for a few of the units (most actually) I didn’t mind the price changes. I felt Painbringers were fair at 160 honesty. Slickblades felt bad, but everything else felt pretty okay. But this, this just means that 160 is about 50 points more than I’d ever pay for them. The rerolls were actually the only thing they have going for them. Taking those away means they went from A in my testing to maybe a C- at best. They literally aren’t playable now if you have any competitive aspirations. 

I definitely think our rules were created at an awkward time where GW wasn't entirely sure what they should be doing with us, and didn't really know how we were going to interreact with AoS 3, and this was combined with the focus on summoning in our book (which is fine, I do like the depravity points changes) but few other changes and some really just bad warscrolls (well, more 'warscroll' with Slaangors and then some questionable ones), possibly playing coy due to how OP old Slaanesh was. 

We suffered from having an OP old book with no proper theme to it (unless being ridiculously strong was a theme), and the 2021 book was created to tidy up the mess that the 2019 book caused. I'm sure a lot of people would have preferred just a straight rewrite to start us from a new angle and go from there, but in GW's perspective that was probably too risky of a move (and would likely take too much time away from writing 3e and other battletomes). The 3e points (and the FAQ to an extent) were, as @KrispyXIV has said, likely just a buffer to check what comes out in the wash with 3e. Basically trying (and very possibly failing in some cases) to shut down everything that could be OP before it has the chance to be, and leaving people (not just us) with some weird rules that look a lot like nerfs to factions that didn't deserve it. Hopefully the December FAQ looks at things in more depth now that GW has had the time to mull AoS 3 over and they can more accurately point things. Of course, they could just give Slaangors another increase and call it a day, but I have a bit more faith in them than that. 

---

Important for those who don't like our rules:

Also, something people may find interesting is that there has been a pretty credible rumour (it may even just be confirmed on someone's Twitter) that the person who wrote our books (I cannot remember his name but it began with a J I think) has left GW. I don't think this was anything to do with our book, but it does mean that our next book will have a new writer. It may well be worth sending ideas over to the rules team once the dust has settle on AoS 3. Both @Carnith and @CeleFAZE had some really cool ideas on new/altered hosts that would be great to see (even in a changed way) in a White Dwarf or supplement book, or even whenever we get a new tome.  

Edited July 2, 2021 by Enoby

[pnkdth]

9 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

From GWs perspective, we're Painbringers nerfed or buffed?

In 2E, Save modifiers were rare.  Lurid Haze was an exception rather than the norm.  Against Rend 2, a 4+ rerollable became 6+ rerollable and was... not very good.  Mathmatically, im almost positive it's not as good as 4+ with a +1 to save vs. Rend 2. 

If you add other modifiers into the equation, with Lurid Haze CA and All Out Defense and Mystic Shield at +1, it's actually fairly trivial to negate significant amounts of Rend - meaning that math wise, Painbringers with a built in +1 to save are probably better off than they were with rerolls in 2e vs any significant Rend.  3+ vs 5+ or 6+ rerollable.  

It only looks like a "nerf" because there was a middle period where people were playing 3e without the FAQ.  But the rerolls with 3rd Ed. Modifier stacking for saves never "actually existed" from GWs perspective. 

Yepp, from their perspective Painbringers have the an always-on 1+ save CA in combat now. That's the perspective I'm taking as well and with that, how can I make the most of that.

3 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

I’m pretty much convinced that GW is trying to sabotage HoS at this point. Why keep nerfing us? What did we do to deserve it? It’s just awful design, and I’m not buying into it.

Have you checked other armies? S2D lost their re-rolls to saves too. It is a universal thing as GW does not want super buffed up units in either offence or defence. Haven't really gone into many other FAQs but there's some stuff shaking things up. LotFP lost their VLC mortal wound combat monster, for example, as they can only pick from the big four + S2D (but not everchosen stuff).

[azdimy]

12 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

From GWs perspective, we're Painbringers nerfed or buffed?

In 2E, Save modifiers were rare.  Lurid Haze was an exception rather than the norm.  Against Rend 2, a 4+ rerollable became 6+ rerollable and was... not very good.  Mathmatically, im almost positive it's not as good as 4+ with a +1 to save vs. Rend 2. 

If you add other modifiers into the equation, with Lurid Haze CA and All Out Defense and Mystic Shield at +1, it's actually fairly trivial to negate significant amounts of Rend - meaning that math wise, Painbringers with a built in +1 to save are probably better off than they were with rerolls in 2e vs any significant Rend.  3+ net after modifiers vs 5+ or 6+ rerollable.  

It only looks like a "nerf" because there was a middle period where people were playing 3e without the FAQ.  But the rerolls with 3rd Ed. Modifier stacking for saves never "actually existed" from GWs perspective.  Compare their durability to the same situations in 2E, and I suspect vs low Rend they're slightly worse off and better vs higher Rend. 

You re looking at the worse case for rerolls (providing you get a roll) and yet those probabilities are really close. 33% for a 5+ vs 31% for a 6s rerolling

For 4+ it s 50% vs 56% for 5 rerolling

For 3+ it s 66% vs 75% for 4 rerolling

For 2+ 83% vs 89% for 3+ rerolling

If it looks like a nerf, it s beacause it is one

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, pnkdth said:

Yepp, from their perspective Painbringers have the an always-on 1+ save CA in combat now. That's the perspective I'm taking as well and with that, how can I make the most of that.

Have you checked other armies? S2D lost their re-rolls to saves too. It is a universal thing as GW does not want super buffed up units in either offence or defence. Haven't really gone into many other FAQs but there's some stuff shaking things up. LotFP lost their VLC mortal wound combat monster, for example, as they can only pick from the big four + S2D (but not everchosen stuff).

I'd note too that while there is a lot of concern going around that rend is less potent this edition because of all the easy save modifiers, the removal of (almost) all save rerolls means that attacks without rend actually become slightly better (since the Bane of their existence, rerollable saves, also went away).

These systems are complex, interwoven and tied together, and create a complex machine.  Some changes may be more significant than they appear in ways that aren't obvious.  

Things probably are better off than they seem.

Or worse, that's possible too - but I like to be optimistic.  

Disclaimer - I am in no way implying Painbringers are good at 160 points.  That's a lot of points.  I'm just saying that the rerolling saves thing isn't the straight nerf it's being portrayed as, and the game where they had both rerollable saves and easy access to modifiers was never actually real AOS.  

[Benkei]

Just convert all your Painbringers to Twinsouls: they have 0 Rend, hit like a truck and tank as good as Painbringers or better. They are uglier, but what can you do? 

[Benkei]

Double post

Edited July 2, 2021 by Benkei

[KrispyXIV]

4 minutes ago, azdimy said:

You re looking at the worse case for rerolls (providing you get a roll) and yet those probabilities are really close. 33% for a 5+ vs 31% for a 6s rerolling

For 4+ it s 50% vs 56% for 5 rerolling

For 3+ it s 66% vs 75% for 4 rerolling

For 2+ 83% vs 89% for 3+ rerolling

If it looks like a nerf, it s beacause it is one

So, you're looking at rend -1?  A save value, and the value one above it?

As I noted in my original post, I'm pretty sure the break point is Rend -2.  

You're still demonstrating here the delta isn't apocalyptic at Rend -1.  

[azdimy]

2 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

So, you're looking at rend -1?  A save value, and the value one above it?

As I noted in my original post, I'm pretty sure the break point is Rend -2.  

You're still demonstrating here the delta isn't apocalyptic at Rend -1.  

Not apocalyptic but worse nonetheless 

[KrispyXIV]

4 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Not apocalyptic but worse nonetheless 

Consider this then - if you have a second +1 from any source at all (that didn't previously exist - all out defense, mystic shield, etc) then the numbers shift.  Against Rend -1, the two +1s are better than 2e rerollable (again, excepting lurid haze CA - its definitely hurt)... 66% vs 56%, by your math. 

That's a significant boost. 

Clarification- +1 saves on demand are cheap now,  and the trick is stacking them.  Painbringers do this well. Given the nature of 3e, having +1 save on your tank units is close to a given.  I think that makes this a fair comparison. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[Benkei]

Funny how S2D Tzeencht units can still reroll saves