Benkei Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) So we need our summoning just to be even, while the rest of allegiance abilities for other factions are actual advantages that usually are there since the start of the game and not gatekeeped by our "you are fragile so hit hard, but don't actually kill stuff because that's bad for you" Other factions can leverage their allegiance abilities to actually get an advantage, but we have to actually exploit ours just to be even. Seems like good design. Again. Edited June 18, 2021 by Benkei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBox Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 I think you're taking summoning for granted if you think it's merely an equalizer. My opponents hate Slaanesh summoning because of how powerful and versatile it is. We have a huge toolbox at our disposal and we can start taking toys out of it much more quickly than Tzeentch can (can't speak for the other Chaos Gods, as I've played neither with nor against them). I'm as disappointed as anyone else right now but I think it's important to keep a level head and actually play a good sample size of games with the new points and rules before leaping to any conclusions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MothmanDraws Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 lord of pain 155 dexcessa 280 sigvald 265 shardspeaker 150 blissbarbs 180 painbringers 160 painbringers 160 slickblades 230 slickblades 230 dread pageant 130 (1940) Armies are so painfully hard to build now, even with old rules I struggled to put them together, before hand this list would probably do fine as I could squeeze something cool in. I cant even afford any of the slaanesh endless spells because they start waay to high of a cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnkdth Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Feorag said: I have updated as I missed seekers and mispointed syl. First off, big thanks for the compilation. Price hikes with monstrous characters and endless spells as expected. Blissbarbs love the Unleash Hell ability. Slickblades got better due to smaller board/speed. Hellstriders/Seekers are really interesting as battleline now. As mentioned, DP and summoning just got better since, 1) board is smaller, 2) armies deployed are smaller (making our summons more significant), 3) more MSU across most armies. Going forward, I think I'm going to continue enjoying twinsouls/painbraingers, sprinkle in some hellstriders, fiends with Syll and Siggie. Might even field that Infernal Rapturess too since that makes casting scarier + adds more DP. Having predominately useless battalions it is nice to see confirmation of them being gone. TL;DR: I'm not feeling the doom or the gloom just yet since there's plenty of play left. @Enoby I wouldn't send anything yet. They'll just discard it since there is not yet context to all the rules changes and how other armies are being affected (because everyone is being affected). For now I'm going to look at what new plays we got and burn the past. No time like the present, after all! Edited June 18, 2021 by pnkdth 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 I'm thinking LoP 155 (Glory Hod, Rod of Misrule) Dex 280 Sigvald 265 Syll'Esske 210 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 10 Twinsouls 270 Some Painbringers could be swapped for some Slickblades, but this is kind of meant to be a grindy army. Would consider dropping Sigvald and Syll'Esske for Glutos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnkdth Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 Just now, Enoby said: I'm thinking LoP 155 (Glory Hod, Rod of Misrule) Dex 280 Sigvald 265 Syll'Esske 210 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 10 Twinsouls 270 Some Painbringers could be swapped for some Slickblades, but this is kind of meant to be a grindy army. Would consider dropping Sigvald and Syll'Esske for Glutos. For that kind of list I think a unit of Blissbarbs + hellstriders (or seekers) be great just to put the pressure on. They land on nearly same cost as two painbringer units. You'll still got 3 painbringer + 1 twinsoul units with significant close combat threat with Dex, Sigvald, Syll and even the LoP if he really has to get in there. Getting some early objective steals/screen out enemy beatsticks and DP could prove valuable in the long run. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnkdth Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 19 minutes ago, MothmanDraws said: lord of pain 155 dexcessa 280 sigvald 265 shardspeaker 150 blissbarbs 180 painbringers 160 painbringers 160 slickblades 230 slickblades 230 dread pageant 130 (1940) Armies are so painfully hard to build now, even with old rules I struggled to put them together, before hand this list would probably do fine as I could squeeze something cool in. I cant even afford any of the slaanesh endless spells because they start waay to high of a cost. With the added point cost everyone is going to find themselves landing short. Characters has gone up by a fair amount for everyone, for examples, and monsters too (or both!). For this list you just got to decide on what is the most important. Do you need an endless spell for this list to work? If so, what other unit is redundant? Currently, you got both Dex and Sigvald, 2 x painbringers and 2 x Slickblades. Is the Dark Pagent needed for you to do your thing? And so on. Taking a unit of fiends over a slickblade unit would put you in a position to afford Visage or the mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golub87 Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 minute ago, pnkdth said: With the added point cost everyone is going to find themselves landing short. Characters has gone up by a fair amount for everyone, for examples, and monsters too (or both!). For this list you just got to decide on what is the most important. I am sorry, but we were overpriced to begin with. I have to admit that this forced positivity is even more grating than the nerfs themselves. GW dropped the ball hard. Was it intentional maliciousness or gross incompetence I really can't say, but it was one of the two. A very bad thing happened. Sweeping that under the rug or adopting "wait and see" stance for the umptheenth time in GW history is not really going to help. This is not the first time this has happened and I really feel that community should stop stiffing its feelings on the matter. Expressing anger and disappointment is both healthy and cathartic, especially in communal setting. There is a point at which looking for silver lining and insisting that everyone should see it is toxic in of itself. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnkdth Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, Golub87 said: I am sorry, but we were overpriced to begin with. I have to admit that this forced positivity is even more grating than the nerfs themselves. GW dropped the ball hard. Was it intentional maliciousness or gross incompetence I really can't say, but it was one of the two. A very bad thing happened. Sweeping that under the rug or adopting "wait and see" stance for the umptheenth time in GW history is not really going to help. This is not the first time this has happened and I really feel that community should stop stiffing its feelings on the matter. Expressing anger and disappointment is both healthy and cathartic, especially in communal setting. There is a point at which looking for silver lining and insisting that everyone should see it is toxic in of itself. Everyone has been increased in points. Board is smaller. Speed is more dangerous. MSU is going to be more common. Summoned units have more value. Blissbarb Archers are going to love the new Unleash Hell. As expected, we saw increases on characters/monsters/endless spells across the board. I think it is quite presumptuous to assume my positive nature is "forced." I'm solutions-oriented by nature and do not dwell much on the past. Things may not be as we expected, i.e. we made a metric ton of speculation on the 3rd edition and we most definitely got blindsided and set up false expectations because of it. I respect your decision to quit the hobby but I won't stand for being called disingenuous or toxic for expressing what I feel. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 On the bright side, I must now have about 8000 points of painted Slaanesh :P 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrod Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) Gluttos - 475 Lord of Pain - 155 (General) The Masque - 135 Twinsouls x 10 - 370 Blissbarb Archers x 11 - 180 Hellstriders {Scourges} x 15 - 405 Blissbarb Seekers x 5 - 220 Soulsnare Shackles - 60 List building is like squeezing blood from a stone... Anyway I don't own a Lord of Pain, 0 Hellstriders and 0 Twinsouls. No interest in rewarding GW with 200 bucks for bad behavior so I cannot play this list, but figured I would share for anyone that does own these models, I think it might be able to hold its own. The range on Scourges and Twinsouls circumvents a lot of 3rd edition nerfs and more or less ensures the entire unit participates meaningfully. Unleash Hell can soften opposing charges against your screens. Soulsnare Shackles and -1 to hit make Gluttos a weird support utility unit that ticks a lot of boxes and can also throw Arcane Bolt to fuel depravity. Would help if he were 440 or 430... Hopefully all of this comes together enough to allow your front line units to survive long enough to get a summon online. Edited June 18, 2021 by Nasrod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adammck66 Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 Quick question folks, My opponent is Sylvaneth and has 2 or 3 hero monsters. Is Shalaxi and obvious pick over a Keeper or stick with keeper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MothmanDraws Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, Adammck66 said: Quick question folks, My opponent is Sylvaneth and has 2 or 3 hero monsters. Is Shalaxi and obvious pick over a Keeper or stick with keeper? honestly I think keeper with ward save will probably do fine, shalaxi is good but also is still a 1 attack with the spear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, Adammck66 said: Quick question folks, My opponent is Sylvaneth and has 2 or 3 hero monsters. Is Shalaxi and obvious pick over a Keeper or stick with keeper? I'd stick with a keeper IMO. They deal good damage against hero monsters, can take the ward save artifact and have the healing hand which makes them harder to kill but most importantly decent outside of killing monsters, especially considering their command ability on other units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrod Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Enoby said: I'm thinking LoP 155 (Glory Hod, Rod of Misrule) Dex 280 Sigvald 265 Syll'Esske 210 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 5 Painbringers 160 10 Twinsouls 270 Some Painbringers could be swapped for some Slickblades, but this is kind of meant to be a grindy army. Would consider dropping Sigvald and Syll'Esske for Glutos. 10 Twinsouls is 370, not 270. Drop a Painbringer unit to make room, swap Sigvald to get an Exalted Chariot Bladebringer and use the last 60 points on Soulsnare Shackles. Our army is dead against opposing Shackles so we want a Dispel chance for it in every list until it gets FAQed (And it will because it is unbelievably meta warping imo). If you are intent on going casterless, the extra 60 points can be thrown into upgrading 5 Painbringers into 10 Blisbarb Archers to be screened and utilize Unleash Hell, or 5 Blissbarb Seekers to help harass backfield objectives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dicebod Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 Okay, try this on for size, should be 4 drops if you fit in in the Command Entourage and Battle Regiment battalions: Syll’esske - 210 Sigvald - 265 Contorted Epitome - 255 Lord of Pain - 155 Hellstriders -135 Hellstriders - 135 Twinsouls (10) - 370 Slickblades - 230 Slickblades - 230 Decent magic, decent killiness, decent CP generation in Invaders. If I needed to, I guess I could drop Sigvald for a unit of Blissbarb archers and the wheel, as this comes in at 1985. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Nasrod said: 10 Twinsouls is 370, not 270. Drop a Painbringer unit to make room, swap Sigvald to get an Exalted Chariot Bladebringer and use the last 60 points on Soulsnare Shackles. Our army is dead against opposing Shackles so we want a Dispel chance for it in every list until it gets FAQed (And it will because it is unbelievably meta warping imo). If you are intent on going casterless, the extra 60 points can be thrown into upgrading 5 Painbringers into 10 Blisbarb Archers to be screened and utilize Unleash Hell, or 5 Blissbarb Seekers to help harass backfield objectives. Yeah, sorry, wrote it wrong on the calculator and ended up bringing the mistake across! There should be one less unit of Painbringers and I can take an endless spell It's not fully casterless (Syll'Esske can cast) - I don't feel the chariot would bring much over Sigvald when there's already one level 1 caster (and I can only try dispell shackles once a turn), but maybe I've just had bad experiences with the chariot doing close to no damage. An alternative to Sigvald for more casting would be the contorted epitome but its points put me off for the lack of impact it can have elsewhere, and it doesn't reroll unbinds. That said, maybe the fire blade spell will come in handy in a pinch. I'm still shakey on blissbarbs - they're nice for support but they tend to melt to a sneeze (except once where they survived against Alarrialle somehow). I'll play around and see what feels better between them Edited June 18, 2021 by Enoby 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBox Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 The more I look at it, the more I am unable to believe the Shalaxi hike. They're already underplayed and now there's almost no reason to take them at all (and can't be summoned). Is it too much to hope they're being given a second spear attack in recompense? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selpharia Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 I would suspect that perhaps the hand of marketing is at play here. Most of the biggest losers are daemons who most everyone already had from the 2019 book. The Keeper is the best example of this, as in their heyday, and still in 40k, it wasn’t uncommon to see Shalaxi + 2/3 Keepers. But it’s also true for both the Epitome and Daemonette hordes The units that got off lightest were old mortals/daemons whose stock they want to clear (Hellstriders/Seekers) and new mortals they probably still have many of: painbringers/LoP/Shardspeaker. The only mortals to take major hikes were Blissbarbs, who compete in battleline with striders, and Slickblade/Blissbarb seekers, who compete for the role of fast cavalry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawenwing Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 Ok so, yesterday was quite traumatic but, I’ve chosen to keep a somewhat low degree of optimism and came up with this Invaders Warlord Battalion - extra artifact Keeper of secrets 420 -general -flaming weapon -icon of infinite excess Lord of Pain 155 -general -glory hog -rod of misrule Synessa 260 -general Hellstriders 135 Hellstriders 135 10 Symbaresh Twinsouls 370 11 Blissbarb archers 180 Wheels of excruciation 100 Quicksilver Swords 90 Chronomantic Cogs 45 I tried to maximize the amount of DP generation, the only thing I could swap is the shardspeaker for the lord of pain, that way I can keep my endless under control and give an occasional +1 wound. Main summon targets will be the epitome and the herald on exalted chariot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adammck66 Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 Thanks guys, Keeper it is also since if it dies I can use the model for a summon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrod Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Enoby said: Yeah, sorry, wrote it wrong on the calculator and ended up bringing the mistake across! There should be one less unit of Painbringers and I can take an endless spell It's not fully casterless (Syll'Esske can cast) - I don't feel the chariot would bring much over Sigvald when there's already one level 1 caster (and I can only try dispell shackles once a turn), but maybe I've just had bad experiences with the chariot doing close to no damage. An alternative to Sigvald for more casting would be the contorted epitome but its points put me off for the lack of impact it can have elsewhere, and it doesn't reroll unbinds. That said, maybe the fire blade spell will come in handy in a pinch. I'm still shakey on blissbarbs - they're nice for support but they tend to melt to a sneeze (except once where they survived against Alarrialle somehow). I'll play around and see what feels better between them I missee Syll'esske entirely. Agreed, keep Sigvald and try to squeeze an endless in; even if it is something lackluster, we stand to benefit from small chip damage mortal wounds more than any other army really. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 17 minutes ago, LeonBox said: The more I look at it, the more I am unable to believe the Shalaxi hike. They're already underplayed and now there's almost no reason to take them at all (and can't be summoned). Is it too much to hope they're being given a second spear attack in recompense? I'm confused by this one too. However, I have developed a mild conspiracy My guess would be that all of these points were prepared before any public play had taken place with Slaanesh - so maybe like February time. The reason our points are so high was because someone thought our summoning would be incredibly strong in AoS 3 and would be very strong in AoS 2 (hence paying over what you'd expect in our original book and again here). This is all pretty standard (and hardly a conspiracy), however, one thing stands out - Hellstriders were reduced. At first, I thought this disproved the "GHB before battletome" theory because reducing hellstriders points looks like a balancing attempt. After all, if they just slapped everything into an algorithm then surely Hellstriders would have gone up too? But wait! There is a key detail we're missing. Now, for those who watched it, you may remember the Facehammer's interview. Keen listeners may have remembered a rather suspect conversation about Hellstriders - when asked about their points, the playtester laughed and said they would get in trouble if they said, but they expect them to come down. So, using this rather flimsy evidence, I reckon our points were created when play test notes were coming back to the design team. This doesn't really help us much, I just kind of thought it was neat to note 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaulder Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 Going all-in with Slaanesh now, because LoA seems to be deleted ! So here is my collection: Keeper - 420 Dex - 280 Contorted Epitome - 255 The Masque - 135 Blissbarb Archers - 180 2x10 daemonettes - 280 Slickblades seekers - 230 Mes mirror - 80 Wheels - 100 (and 5 seekers, a herald on chariot, and 20 extra daemonettes for summoning) That brings me to 1960/2000 points for ~40 models. Good thing I didn't buy another box of Slickblade, Shalaxi or Sigvald... I'll probably buy another Keeper for summons though, as that seems to be our main strategy. I have a question for you, hedonite players: does the Wheels of Excrucation move twice when you cast it (and by doing so, do double damage)? I mean 1 time because of "Swirling Death" and another time in the end of the hero phase because it's a predatory spell? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 Just now, Kaulder said: have a question for you, hedonite players: does the Wheels of Excrucation move twice when you cast it (and by doing so, do double damage)? I mean 1 time because of "Swirling Death" and another time in the end of the hero phase because it's a predatory spell Good question... I *think* it might do now, however I'm almost certain we'll see a change in the wording of the warscroll so it ceases to do so. I think faction warscrolls are all getting a rework in the FAQ However, I could be totally wrong here! There may be a clause saying endless spells can't move twice in the same turn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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