AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

I'll indulge a bit. What do ya'll think of making some changes to the humble clawlord? Lets update him a bit for 3.0. I'll take a page out of SOD and let him have a retinue rule. If the clawlard activates, a nearby verminous unit activates. Simple. Lets also slap the bodyguard rule on his warscroll instead of the stormvermin. I hate over-paying for stormvermin because of that rule anyways. That way he can have 2+ if around any verminious unit as he ducks and dives around his crew. 

Most importantly, 3.0 has had a lot of command abilities removed so that they don't interfer with the core ones. How about we give the +1 attack as "pick one verminous unit at start of combat" type deal so we don't interfere with our Warbringer's Command ability or the core rule combat ones. 

I own 5 of these guys but never play them. Don't know what their role is supposed to be. You certainly can have him be a little kamikazee blender but only having -1 rend makes him hit like a pillow against anything resembling a save. One can hope. 

[TheArborealWalrus]

 

1 hour ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

What do ya'll think of making some changes to the humble clawlord?

Give him weapon options. Halberd, sword and shield, maybe 2 swords. Halberd is -2 rend option with extra range, but 4 attacks. Sword + shield is the current profile, but maybe 3+ or a ward from the shield? 2 swords is the blender. 7 attacks, current profile. Mince lesser enemies.

The strike with a verminous unit is an obvious one. Cheaper stormvermin is good, but I feel that grey seers would get it too. Which is their generic ability, right? So, that could work.
How about passively buffing bravery of verminous units?

It's not a warscroll ability, but a bonus for having him as your general. Verminous units respawn, or extra reinforcement points? 
I want a reason to use my claw lords. (although I only have 2)

[Skreech Verminking]

7 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

I'll indulge a bit. What do ya'll think of making some changes to the humble clawlord? Lets update him a bit for 3.0. I'll take a page out of SOD and let him have a retinue rule. If the clawlard activates, a nearby verminous unit activates. Simple. Lets also slap the bodyguard rule on his warscroll instead of the stormvermin. I hate over-paying for stormvermin because of that rule anyways. That way he can have 2+ if around any verminious unit as he ducks and dives around his crew. 

Most importantly, 3.0 has had a lot of command abilities removed so that they don't interfer with the core ones. How about we give the +1 attack as "pick one verminous unit at start of combat" type deal so we don't interfere with our Warbringer's Command ability or the core rule combat ones. 

I own 5 of these guys but never play them. Don't know what their role is supposed to be. You certainly can have him be a little kamikazee blender but only having -1 rend makes him hit like a pillow against anything resembling a save. One can hope. 

 

6 hours ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

 

Give him weapon options. Halberd, sword and shield, maybe 2 swords. Halberd is -2 rend option with extra range, but 4 attacks. Sword + shield is the current profile, but maybe 3+ or a ward from the shield? 2 swords is the blender. 7 attacks, current profile. Mince lesser enemies.

The strike with a verminous unit is an obvious one. Cheaper stormvermin is good, but I feel that grey seers would get it too. Which is their generic ability, right? So, that could work.
How about passively buffing bravery of verminous units?

It's not a warscroll ability, but a bonus for having him as your general. Verminous units respawn, or extra reinforcement points? 
I want a reason to use my claw lords. (although I only have 2)

Those are some awesome ideas.

I hope you wouldn’t mind it if I took some into my fanmade faq, which I’ll post in this chat soon-ish

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Skreech Verminking You should and you can. 

21 hours ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

t's not a warscroll ability, but a bonus for having him as your general. Verminous units respawn, or extra reinforcement points? 

You might be on to something. They did make some smart moves in the list building stage from 2.0 to 3.0 by unlocking battleline for every hero. We could take it a step further by replacing the Verminous Allegience ability by saying you get an extra reinforcement point for every clawlord. If we keep it open worded like that you can incentivize clawlords in a mixed list. They can have utility in the list building stage while also having enough verminous buffs elsewhere you can reward clanrant/stormvermin centric lists as well.  

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

I suppose we should be careful with our idea since its not future proofed. Our Master Moulder has a similar thing going on for every one you take you get a mutation but the mutations are meh and feels like a tax. There's even a chance reinforcement points don't make it to 4.0, they are relatively new all things considered. 

I feel like we could also take a look at the Warplock Engineers. Other than buffing lightning cannons it would be worth further differentiating them from the bombadier. Perhaps a list building incentive as well? 

Moving away from reinforcement points (although Skryre could use them as well), how about we play around with using free commands like some of the other books are getting? Engineers can issue free Unleash hell? With +1 to hit? Perhaps this would give Acolytes a role. 

[heromaster]

Hey,

was thinking about picking up some skaven for a 1000pts league we were doing and wondered if anyone had any banging 1k lists or advice they could give me as im new to skaven and have been out of the game for a while!

thanks!

[NinthMusketeer]

In regards to clawlord, I feel his basic stats only need rend -2 then he's fine. Still -1 to hit him from allegiance, which combined with a 'bodyguard' rule (I agree it should be on his warscroll, and allow him to pass wounds off to clanrats or stormvermin on a 3+*) gives him appropriately Skaven-ey durability whereas a 3+ armor feels inappropriate and does nothing against all the MWs bouncing around these days anyways. Though speaking of allegiance, I think the Mighty Warlords rule should be buffed. It was hardly game breaking in the last battletome when Clawlords simply got free command traits and it wouldn't be now either--they shouldn't have to use a heroic action to get the benefit. Just give one clawlord a free command trait, or all of them if there are 3 or more in the army.
*2+ just becomes a 'this hero can't die until this unit is killed first' situation which isn't fun gameplay IMO

 

I do not feel that Gnash-Gnaw should become a non-command ability buff; command abilities were changed to to be 1-per-phase-per-unit specifically to prevent the kind of buff stacking that would create. Considering the numbers (average against a 4+ save);

10 Stormvermin unbuffed: 6.22
with Gnash-Gnaw Their Bones: 9.19 (~48% increase)
with Tyrant of Battle: 9.72 (~56% increase)
with Gnash AND Tyrant: 14.35 (~131% increase)

The compounding effect is tremendous, before even considering they have a good chance of being stacked with Death Frenzy (plus potentially Hoarfrost, for that matter). While it is definitely fun to have a mob of rats put out insane damage numbers I feel it is the same type of fun that comes using cheat codes in a video game; there is an initial thrill of getting to 'break the rules' that quickly burns out and loses its luster when done repeatedly.

 

That brings me to the Cornered Fury ability. It's nice, but I'm not a fan of it because it's so... boring. A simple attack buff for being wounded? That would be great in plenty of armies but this is SKAVEN! The army that is a haven for rules seen nowhere else! And I think GW had it right way back at the launch of AoS with the Chieftain warscroll, who had a rule called Treacherous Progression...

"If your general is a Skaven and has only 1 wound remaining, a Skaven Chieftain can stab-stab him in the back if he is within 1" of [your general] at the start of your hero phase. If he does so, your general is slain; this model then becomes your general and gains any command abilities known by his former master."

I think that rule could be adapted to the modern Clawlord quite easily. Would it be extremely niche? You bet. But it would also be one of the Skaveniest rules in the game and could add a surprising degree of tactical depth, something to the effect of...

If a friendly Clawlord has 3 or more wounds allocated and is within 3" of any other friendly Clawlords at the start of your hero phase, you may have one of them stab him in the back and claim leadership. The Clawlord claiming leadership gains any command traits and/or artifacts possessed by the stabbed model, which is immediately slain. If the slain model was your general, the Clawlord claiming leadership becomes your general.

Edited October 13, 2023 by NinthMusketeer

[NinthMusketeer]

11 hours ago, heromaster said:

Hey,

was thinking about picking up some skaven for a 1000pts league we were doing and wondered if anyone had any banging 1k lists or advice they could give me as im new to skaven and have been out of the game for a while!

thanks!

Do you have any idea what you will be up against?

[Skreech Verminking]

10 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

In regards to clawlord, I feel his basic stats only need rend -2 then he's fine. Still -1 to hit him from allegiance, which combined with a 'bodyguard' rule (I agree it should be on his warscroll, and allow him to pass wounds off to clanrats or stormvermin on a 3+*) gives him appropriately Skaven-ey durability whereas a 3+ armor feels inappropriate and does nothing against all the MWs bouncing around these days anyways. Though speaking of allegiance, I think the Mighty Warlords rule should be buffed. It was hardly game breaking in the last battletome when Clawlords simply got free command traits and it wouldn't be now either--they shouldn't have to use a heroic action to get the benefit. Just give one clawlord a free command trait, or all of them if there are 3 or more in the army.
*2+ just becomes a 'this hero can't die until this unit is killed first' situation which isn't fun gameplay IMO

 

I do not feel that Gnash-Gnaw should become a non-command ability buff; command abilities were changed to to be 1-per-phase-per-unit specifically to prevent the kind of buff stacking that would create. Considering the numbers (average against a 4+ save);

10 Stormvermin unbuffed: 6.22
with Gnash-Gnaw Their Bones: 9.19 (~48% increase)
with Tyrant of Battle: 9.72 (~56% increase)
with Gnash AND Tyrant: 14.35 (~131% increase)

The compounding effect is tremendous, before even considering they have a good chance of being stacked with Death Frenzy (plus potentially Hoarfrost, for that matter). While it is definitely fun to have a mob of rats put out insane damage numbers I feel it is the same type of fun that comes using cheat codes in a video game; there is an initial thrill of getting to 'break the rules' that quickly burns out and loses its luster when done repeatedly.

 

That brings me to the Cornered Fury ability. It's nice, but I'm not a fan of it because it's so... boring. A simple attack buff for being wounded? That would be great in plenty of armies but this is SKAVEN! The army that is a haven for rules seen nowhere else! And I think GW had it right way back at the launch of AoS with the Chieftain warscroll, who had a rule called Treacherous Progression...

"If your general is a Skaven and has only 1 wound remaining, a Skaven Chieftain can stab-stab him in the back if he is within 1" of [your general] at the start of your hero phase. If he does so, your general is slain; this model then becomes your general and gains any command abilities known by his former master."

I think that rule could be adapted to the modern Clawlord quite easily. Would it be extremely niche? You bet. But it would also be one of the Skaveniest rules in the game and could add a surprising degree of tactical depth, something to the effect of...

If a friendly Clawlord has 3 or more wounds allocated and is within 3" of any other friendly Clawlords at the start of your hero phase, you may have one of them stab him in the back and claim leadership. The Clawlord claiming leadership gains any command traits and/or artifacts possessed by the stabbed model, which is immediately slain. If the slain model was your general, the Clawlord claiming leadership becomes your general.

To that point I actually added in a rule for my fanmade skaven faq.

basically embracing the clalwords nature of boasting.

Shortly put having more calwlords would mean that after the first the other clawlords get envious and get a small buff for fifhting in combat and each clawlord can issue the same command for free on a 4+ when one of the clawlords issues it first

[Skreech Verminking]

22 hours ago, heromaster said:

Hey,

was thinking about picking up some skaven for a 1000pts league we were doing and wondered if anyone had any banging 1k lists or advice they could give me as im new to skaven and have been out of the game for a while!

thanks!

That depends on a few factors.

why did you start skaven.

what are your favorite units

in what direction would you like to go with the skaven.

[bonzai]

What do you guys use to kitbash Warpfire guns on your Rat Ogors?

[Lord Krungharr]

54 minutes ago, bonzai said:

What do you guys use to kitbash Warpfire guns on your Rat Ogors?

I would look to 40k probably, or Ogor Mourfang guys come with some pistols that could be good.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, bonzai said:

What do you guys use to kitbash Warpfire guns on your Rat Ogors?

Basically I have used the stormfiends for some cool-ish rat ogre concersions.

and since the warpfire gun changed to basically shooting out d3 shoots I opted to keep one of the gattling guns on the stormfiends arm. Since it kinda fits the esthetic of a gun being shot by an beast that has a limiter on it, so that it doesn’t shoot all of its shoots right away out of the gate 

[TheArborealWalrus]

13 hours ago, bonzai said:

What do you guys use to kitbash Warpfire guns on your Rat Ogors?

Cheap option would be to stick straws or cocktail straws onto rat ogre nubs and then put "gubbinz" on them to tech it up.
Not sure if they come with spares, but ratling guns from stormfiends are good. Converting full stormfiends would be an expensive option.
Could make your own ratling guns by drilling holes and leaving the paper clips next to each other.
If you're using EmanG prints, the ones with crystals on their arm are a pretty good option.
Best of luck!

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@NinthMusketeer Yup our current command traits are perfectly fine to hand out for free for the clawlords, would give them good utility. I appreciate the math breakdown and your point is fair about stacking buffs. Ulitmately, both Tyrant of Battle and Gnash-Gnash are straight power mulitpliers and don't differentiate themselves very well. If you mathhammer it, you always take the most efficient buff anyway. Not my style for having fun but its something. 

You brought up the real nostalgia though. That was some spicy rules back in the day. 

[Skreech Verminking]

54 minutes ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

@NinthMusketeer Yup our current command traits are perfectly fine to hand out for free for the clawlords, would give them good utility. I appreciate the math breakdown and your point is fair about stacking buffs. Ulitmately, both Tyrant of Battle and Gnash-Gnash are straight power mulitpliers and don't differentiate themselves very well. If you mathhammer it, you always take the most efficient buff anyway. Not my style for having fun but its something. 

You brought up the real nostalgia though. That was some spicy rules back in the day. 

If 4th edition takes the idea of smaller heroes joining units, I would be very interested in seeing what role the Clawlord will have

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaven
- Grand Strategy: Magic Made Manifest

LEADERS
Arch-Warlock (150)*
- General
- Command Trait: Devious Adversary
- Artefact: The Brass Orb
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
- Lore of Primal Frost: Merciless Blizzard

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)*
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Scorch
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Scorch
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap

Slynk Skittershank (220)*

UNITS
5 x Plague Censer Bearers (90)

1 x Warp-Grinder (60)
4 x Skittershank's Clawpack (0)
15 x Skryre Acolytes (210)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (100)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (100)
- Rusty Spear

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Umbral Spellportal (80)
Malevolent Maelstrom (30)
Warp Lightning Vortex (80)

CORE BATTALIONS
*Warlord

ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Spell

TOTAL: 1980/2000 WOUNDS: 168

LEADERS: 5/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 3/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 3/3 ALLIES: 0/400

REINFORCED UNITS: 3/4 DROPS: 12

I recently filmed a couple of games with my local club with a triple bell list. They were debuting their Spiderfang army for their channel and I thought to pair them against some cheese of our own. The whole table was still full of models by the end of round 5. A real slap-fight. I did more damage to myself with the endless spells than to my opponent, although ultimately, the maelstrom and warp lightning vortex are not kind to gitz foot heroes. Also turns out that arachnaroks fully buffed do 6 mortals at a time on average with their bites, which is the perfect amount to have screaming bells to barely survive. Summoned 3 verminlords that game, all into combat, only to tickle spiders. My opponent was rocking a total of 6 pie plates on the table was constantly surrounding me but couldn't do any damage. It was madness. 

I must say it was the most fun game I've had since the beginning. Really re-invigorated my love of the game. 

[Skreech Verminking]

3 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Skaven
- Grand Strategy: Magic Made Manifest

LEADERS
Arch-Warlock (150)*
- General
- Command Trait: Devious Adversary
- Artefact: The Brass Orb
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
- Lore of Primal Frost: Merciless Blizzard

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)*
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Scorch
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Scorch
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap

Slynk Skittershank (220)*

UNITS
5 x Plague Censer Bearers (90)

1 x Warp-Grinder (60)
4 x Skittershank's Clawpack (0)
15 x Skryre Acolytes (210)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (100)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (100)
- Rusty Spear

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Umbral Spellportal (80)
Malevolent Maelstrom (30)
Warp Lightning Vortex (80)

CORE BATTALIONS
*Warlord

ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Spell

TOTAL: 1980/2000 WOUNDS: 168

LEADERS: 5/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 3/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 3/3 ALLIES: 0/400

REINFORCED UNITS: 3/4 DROPS: 12

I recently filmed a couple of games with my local club with a triple bell list. They were debuting their Spiderfang army for their channel and I thought to pair them against some cheese of our own. The whole table was still full of models by the end of round 5. A real slap-fight. I did more damage to myself with the endless spells than to my opponent, although ultimately, the maelstrom and warp lightning vortex are not kind to gitz foot heroes. Also turns out that arachnaroks fully buffed do 6 mortals at a time on average with their bites, which is the perfect amount to have screaming bells to barely survive. Summoned 3 verminlords that game, all into combat, only to tickle spiders. My opponent was rocking a total of 6 pie plates on the table was constantly surrounding me but couldn't do any damage. It was madness. 

I must say it was the most fun game I've had since the beginning. Really re-invigorated my love of the game. 

That’s awesome🤩.

personally I haven’t really played to many games with my skaven lately.

haven’t had the time and I kinda got stuck on horus heresy as well as the new edition of 40k

so mostlynI was painting some iron warriors up

[Lord Krungharr]

13 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

That’s awesome🤩.

personally I haven’t really played to many games with my skaven lately.

haven’t had the time and I kinda got stuck on horus heresy as well as the new edition of 40k

so mostlynI was painting some iron warriors up

You know what that base needs?....a bunch of giant rats running around!

[Skreech Verminking]

11 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

You know what that base needs?....a bunch of giant rats running around!

Love rhe idea😂

something that hints toawrds my skaven nature😂

[Skreech Verminking]

Who said that skaven din’t exist in 40k?!

clearly they were wrong😂

 

oh and don’t forget Ludwig the rat medic.

he is just missing a small rat called archimedes.

(a tf2 reference for those who don’t get it)

 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

By golly I did it! Went to a Food for the Food God tourney and after 6 years of playing this game, killed Bastion of the stormcast. I've never beaten a list with him in it until this weekend. Mind you my opponent was extremely cocky with his forward deployment. 

My recipe: Dreaded Death Frenzy, Mystic Shield, Hoarfrost (-3 rend), Crack the Whip, All-Out Attack on double-reinforced Rat Ogres. Skitterleaped a Deathmaster with the Gnawbomb, ogres popped out, made their charge and smacked Bastion back to Azyr. 

Took nearly 1500 points of my list to get involved but I did it. Do try this at home. 

 

[Lord Krungharr]

14 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

By golly I did it! Went to a Food for the Food God tourney and after 6 years of playing this game, killed Bastion of the stormcast. I've never beaten a list with him in it until this weekend. Mind you my opponent was extremely cocky with his forward deployment. 

My recipe: Dreaded Death Frenzy, Mystic Shield, Hoarfrost (-3 rend), Crack the Whip, All-Out Attack on double-reinforced Rat Ogres. Skitterleaped a Deathmaster with the Gnawbomb, ogres popped out, made their charge and smacked Bastion back to Azyr. 

Took nearly 1500 points of my list to get involved but I did it. Do try this at home. 

 

Now that's a PLAN-SCHEME!  I never thought of the Gnawbomb after Skitterleaping.  That could leave many options for finding a weak spot in enemy deployment.  It would also be hilarious to use it on enemy faction terrain like a Herdstone or that giant OBR one.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

Every list prior, I've gone without the deathmaster and used the soul scream bridge (only 30 points more). The reason for the switch was 1) i've always proxied the bridge with trash so a no-go with a tourney, 2) Bridge harder to cast than Skitterleap , 3) You can choose to have the deathmaster stay nearby to issue inspiring presence to the inevitable battleshock or have him pop back to safety in the following movement phase,  4) Another body for points scoring, 5) Infinite range instead of ~24 range (if you're a pro). All upside from my end. The consistency is way higher. 

Bonus: You can casually switch your playstyle up during consecutive games by conservatively deploying your gnawholes so that  match-up dependent  and send 3 units total through gnawholes and pop out the newly created 4th. one. Might be interesting for a turn 1 Intimidate the Invaders to rotate your forces around the table, depending on the matchup of course. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Riff_Raff_Rascal

[Lord Krungharr]

I love that last idea; in most cases it would still allow a bunch of sneakyness.  I often find my 2 farflung gnawholes shut down with enemy presence early on.