Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Aezeal]

20 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

1k Doubles Tournament yesterday. Restrictions were pretty lax, you didn't have to conform to army restrictions in regard to list building, but if you did build a battleline army, you were able to utilize allegiance abilities. Rule of 1's in play, but monsters did get cover saves. I partnered with a friend who brought his empire army out of retirement. We used the compendium warscroll for the priest, (so the keywords would line up properly).  First match was vs. Ogres and Dwarfs (Thorogrim and Belagar no less) second was Stormcast and Fyerslayers, and third was Beastclaw raiders and Lizardmen. I'd just thought I'd post some observations rather than a full Battlereport. 

For reference I ran the following: 

Allegiance: Order

Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages  
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Drycha Hamadreth (280)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Trait: Gift of Ghyran - Sylvaneth
- Artefact: Ranu's Lamentiri  
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
10 x Dryads (120)
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)
Household (20)

Total: 1000/1000

1st game: Three places of power (Dwarfs and Ogres)

Took a brutal beating the first two rounds, as we opted for first turn and they rolled well for priority and took a double turn. 

This match further reenforced my opinion that dryads do not do well in 10's. That extra point of save is pretty important for units over 12 and the extra bodies make a fairly significant contribution to battleshock. In all three games I played, the dryads popped int elf first battleground due to a  combination of wounds/mortal wounds and then battleshock. In this particular game, it was a butcher and an Ogre tyrant (with Giant breaker) that were able to clear the forest (even with a -2 to hit for dryads + a TLA stomp) of dryads. Without that extra save and the extra bodies, there just isn't a chance to bring any back with verdurous harmony.

On the other hand, my Rev were the players of the game. A single unit of 5 managed to take out said butcher and Tyrant in the next two rounds of combat without suffering a single wound. Say what you want about 4+ to hit, the fact that they have 2 attacks apiece with -1 rend (with the protector glaive doing 2 damage) they managed to give the TLA enough breathing room to heal himself up with regrowth. 10/10 would run again.

Game ended at turn 3 with a minor victory to us based on kill points. 

2nd game: Border war (stormcast and Fyreslayers)

Took first turn again and opted for deep strike TLA and dryads onto one of the center objectives. My partner also moved 40 halberdiers onto the other center objective, effectively netting us 10 points in the first game turn. As in the last game, the Dryads popped early leaving the TLA holding the objective. Again, the other team scored a double turn and poured ranged fire into the TLA with 6 tempestors, a magmadroth and 10 auric heathgaurd who tunneled into the back. He suffered 8 wounds (rolled saves like champ) and when it became obvious he could no longer control the objective or destroy his attackers he opted to heal himself back to full health (gift of ghyran + regrowth is just fantastic healing) and teleport out. 

Game ended at turn 4 with them conceding since we were too far ahead in objective points for them to catch up. 

3rd game: take and hold (beastclaw raiders and Seraphon).

The beastclaw player had his partner leave so of the local opted to jump in, he wanted a small army so he opted to bring lord Kroak, a bastilidon and a saurus astrolith bearer.

The funny thing was they decided their army list before knowing the scenario was take and hold. Since they were essentially a 9 model army (a frostorn, a beastrider store horn, two mournfang and two sabercats) they couldn't actually hold both objectives at the same time due to not having enough models. The only way they would be able to win was wiping us out. 

since this was a silly game and we had basically won from deployment, it was more about seeing the best way to take out double Stornhorns. I had placed my free wood in the back near their objective and dropped my acorn to block the stornhorns approach. In the end, we actually pinned the general in with Wyldwoods (those huge bases are a major liability if you position your forests with blocking traffic in mind) by baiting him with a unit of greatswords. While the swords were wiped out to a man that turn, the TLA and Branchwytch managed to take him down with mortal wounds from spells/wyldwoods/shooting. 

Drycha dropped into the back near the end of the match do see about doing something re: the gastrolith bearer + Kroak. She actually made her 9 inch charge (rolled an 11!) and tried but failed to take out Kroak. we rolled the double this time and she was able to put enough wounds into Kroak that he popped that turn.

At this point, they conceded having lost everything but the Bastilladon.  

Wins 3 Losses 0. 

General impressions:

Deepstriking the general is huge risk/reward strategy. No command abilities for potentially the first two turns was a major drawback as getting inspiring presence on the dryads would have helped immensely. Yet still, being able to get on objectives turn 1 basically won us the second game and kept us competitive in the first.

Drycha's damage output is surprisingly consistent even as she takes wounds. She can also weather a fair amount of fire provided nobody is throwing mortal wounds at her. In each game I opted to keep her off the board, and deep strike her when I had the opportunity for a double turn. Out of the 3 times I attempted, I only got the double turn once, but bringing her into a fight that was already underway meant i could (mostly) position her out of ranged fire. Also arriving to combat that we were losing (dwarf hammerers + Thorgrim = bad business) allowed her to pretty much wreck everything and turn the tide of combat herself. (squirmlings rerolling 1's is brutal at full health.)

    


  

 

I the last game why did they take the side with the wildwood on their zone.. you have to place it before picking sides right? (If not I really need to know since that would let me do this too.. and I'd LOVE to teleport into enemy deployment zone).

How did you teleport to the objective in the 2nd game, wyldwood cast there ,the placed wyld wood.. or someway I can't think of now.

Drycha is usually great.. I use squirmlings and they just wreck units.. preferably 20+ bodies. If you are in combat not rerolling the 1's on squirmlings is worth it though

[Mirage8112]

2 hours ago, Aezeal said:

I the last game why did they take the side with the wildwood on their zone.. you have to place it before picking sides right? (If not I really need to know since that would let me do this too.. and I'd LOVE to teleport into enemy deployment zone).

I think they chose that side because of way the objectives fell. Their side had the take and hold objective sitting in a natural (non-Wyldwood) forest. Our side had the objective sitting out in the open. I opted to put the woods near the objective in the natural forest (1" away per the rules meant I could only get two bases down).

That gave them a tough choice, they could take the objective out in the open, and give us the objective in the forest, meaning the 40 Halberdiers would be able to sit on the objective in cover, while they would have to hold theirs in the open. OR, they could take the objective in the forest for the cover save, but they would also be near the Wyldwood; risking collateral magic damage from Kroak casting 4 spells per turn.

In the end they opted for the side with the forest. And really, it wasn't any better of a choice than the alternative. They opted to move Kroak away from the Wyldwood so it wouldn't be roused by magic, but doing so basically opened a lane for Drycha to pop up in the bottom of the second turn. I also kept the revenants hiding near the back of the board (they weren't needed for combat)in case she needed a little support. 

 

2 hours ago, Aezeal said:

How did you teleport to the objective in the 2nd game, wyldwood cast there ,the placed wyld wood.. or someway I can't think of now.

The objective in these second game had a my free wyldwood on it. So in the first movement phase the TLA + dryads came out of the enclaves onto the objective. When things got too hot he navigated the realmroots to the forest dropped by the acorn I had the wytch drop in the first hero phase. 

 

[Aezeal]

34 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I think they chose that side because of way the objectives fell. Their side had the take and hold objective sitting in a natural (non-Wyldwood) forest. Our side had the objective sitting out in the open. I opted to put the woods near the objective in the natural forest (1" away per the rules meant I could only get two bases down).

That gave them a tough choice, they could take the objective out in the open, and give us the objective in the forest, meaning the 40 Halberdiers would be able to sit on the objective in cover, while they would have to hold theirs in the open. OR, they could take the objective in the forest for the cover save, but they would also be near the Wyldwood; risking collateral magic damage from Kroak casting 4 spells per turn.

In the end they opted for the side with the forest. And really, it wasn't any better of a choice than the alternative. They opted to move Kroak away from the Wyldwood so it wouldn't be roused by magic, but doing so basically opened a lane for Drycha to pop up in the bottom of the second turn. I also kept the revenants hiding near the back of the board (they weren't needed for combat)in case she needed a little support. 

 

The objective in these second game had a my free wyldwood on it. So in the first movement phase the TLA + dryads came out of the enclaves onto the objective. When things got too hot he navigated the realmroots to the forest dropped by the acorn I had the wytch drop in the first hero phase. 

 

Ok, clear, thanks. My regular strat is what  you decribe in your last answer, well the forest there, I actually hardly ever teleport unless I have to since it often makes those troops exposed to a charge or shooting. But if it's a scenario that gives points every turn.. well then you have to.

[Nico]

Thanks - I felt it could either fall within "ability" in a broad sense or "casting spells".... Glad it's not an absurd idea.

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Thanks - I felt it could either fall within "ability" in a broad sense or "casting spells".... Glad it's not an absurd idea.

Yes. I don't think it's an absurd idea at all. Again, I'd say its probably intended to apply to unbinds as well as casting. But the rules lawyers will balk without an FAQ. It's just strange because unbinding doesn't cleanly fit into any of those things except on some models where it clearly does. It seems odd that a LoC would get his unbinding at 18", but not if he's using the 27" unbind trait, since it's technically an allegiance "ability". 

[Nico]

I had a sobering experience yesterday down at the South London Legion - it was my fifth game with my Sylvaneth and my fourth defeat. Admittedly none of these were in a tournament setting. I played against the new Shinies - Blades of Khorne - wielded by John @Gitli

I took this list:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Artefact: Briarsheath 
- Deepwood Spell: Verdant Blessing
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Moonstone of the Hidden Ways 
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth

Battleline
10 x Dryads (120)
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline

Units
5 x Spite-Revenants (100)
5 x Spite-Revenants (100)
5 x Spite-Revenants (100)
5 x Spite-Revenants (100)
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (360)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Greatbows

Battalions
Dreadwood Wargrove (100)
Outcasts (40)

Total: 2000/2000
 

The Battleplan from the SCGT pack favoured me as I needed to use generals to score diagonally opposite objectives (failing which more models scored).  John had deployed quite aggressively on my right to attack my objective. John's general and a ring of 10 Maras were on my left.

I deployed my Wyldwood on his objective as a Les Martin Cluster. I figured that John probably wouldn't swap sides and I would be able to do some damage with 

I was aware of the availability of Brazen Runes which would be a once per game auto-unbind with infinite range. These were a horrible prospect for an army as Magic Dependent as Sylvaneth.

Dreadwood Wargrove

The basic plan was to use Ambush to redeploy the Scythe Hunters to come and smash John's general, then hopefully the rest of his army would get in the way of itself as it tried to react.

I rolled up 3 abilities on the D3 - so I could use all 3 abilities. You need to plan on the basis of one such ability.

On reflection, the unbinding is either an ability or a form of "casting spells" point discussed above should have meant that he couldn't use the auto unbinds as they were capped to a 12" range by Hidden Attackers (although this is ambiguous).

I also used Sneak Attack, although following the FAQ to decapitate the Free Spirits - this ability appears to be almost useless due to the low movement speed of Sylvaneth and the ability to use Navigate Realmroots instead. The exceptions would be Alarielle and possibly Drycha, as she would be able to move 9" and then 9" and then use Flitterfuries to hit much of an enemy bunker. Another use would be if you had no Wyldwood in the middle and wanted to lob forward a line of 20 Dryads to act as a shield - as they could move 7" plus a further 7" and a run in the movement phase.

I took turn one and used Awakening on the Wyldwood - this bounced off the 2++ ward vs spells that the Brazen Rune also provides until expended and killed a few Reavers. I realised with dismay that the Wyldwoods generated by the Ancient cannot be used that turn for the purposes of Navigate Realmroots (as they have to be more than 3" from any model) - Verdant Blessing is different. Luckily I cast Verdant Blessing and popped another Wyldwood down near my general and the rest of my forces.

I used a combination of Navigate Realmroots and 

I left the Dryads in reserve (probably a mistake). I figured that some Bravery debuffs would really hurt the Khorne forces so I moved in with them.

I shot up the 30 Blood Reavers with the Kurnoth Hunters - killing 12 - This prompted me to charge in with the Tree Revenants and 5 Spite Revenants. The hope was that the unit would pop, but that I would be able to block the Warriors and the Wrathbros behind in John's next turn . However, as I only just made the charges the Spites were behind the Revenants when I would have preferred the opposite.

On the left, I killed 8 Bloodreavers of the 10 ringing the Mighty Lord. However, when it came to charge I found that John has legally broken coherency in order to block the gaps between the tree stumps. This meant that only 3 of the Kurnoths got into range and only the Champion against the Mighty Lord. Had I spotted this beforehand I would have gone into the Khorgoraths full throttle and hopefully dropped the unit of 3 (I had taken the Damned buff in exchange for 3 wounds). The non-general Ancient failed a long charge as the Bloodreavers near the Lord who had been 9" away were all dead as did the right Tree Revenants. The general one say back a little on John's objective behind a screen of 5 Spite Revenants.

What happened next was horrific. 3 of the Scythe Hunters were out of combat even with a 2" reach. The Champion bounced off the Mighty Lord (not that surprisingly. However, John passed 2 out of 4 saves on sixes for his Blood Warriors, so the total damage inflicted was 1.5 Blood Warriors and 2 Blood Reavers from my hammer unit. I'd completely thrown away the game turn one it seemed. 

John attacked back with the depleted Blood Reavers, who were only 2 attacks each at the moment. They killed 3 Tree Revenants but no Spites. In response I activated the Spite Revenants who had also charged the Mighty Lord - they actually did a wound before the Mighty Lord deleted them.

Then came the Khorgis at 3+, 3+, -1 rend, 2 damage. All 3 managed to get in and John rolled up 8 wounds. I proceeded to fail 6 of the saves - which came to 12 wounds plus the 3 earlier ones - 3 Dead Kurnoth Hunters in my turn! Plus this activated a Bravery debuff.

The Spites and Tree Revenants did poorly. It's inexplicable to me that Tree Revenants aren't 3+ to hit (considering the army has no buffs to hit rolls whatsoever) and these chaps are the same cost per model as Phoenix Guard and Temple Guard. Battleshock meant that all bar 2 of the Blood Reavers popped. 

However, the tragic news was to come as I rolled badly for the Kurnoths and a further 2 models fled. 5 dead in my turn! Perhaps my worst first turn ever in AoS. I also lost the Tree Revenants even with the reroll - I think they are awful for 100 points - they should be 90 at most. 

I was considering whether to concede at this point. I was at least on a 3-0 lead and I wanted to see what the BoK could do.

In short John moved his Wrathbros towards my general and the Mighty Lord came out to try to get him as well with the Reality Splitting Axe. This time the Les Martin Cluster worked in my favour as the fat base of the MLoK together with the remaining Spite Revenants meant that he had to go a long way round or waste a turn on the Spites. The Blood Warriors on the left went into the other Ancient, who had done nothing so far. The Moonstone was a complete waste of space on this. The plan had been to have him up with the Kurnoths unleashing the stomps to help keep them alive, but due to my bad positioning, he had ended up in the wrong place and out of combat. 

The Blood Warriors chomped up the Ancient, while the Khorgis thankfully failed a mid range charge. John cleared up my front line on the right flank.

John won the initiative and got his General and the Wrathbros into my Ancient.

I skillfully forgot about Gnarled Warrior for some reason, so John chipped away some wounds. An elaborate multi turn dance began whereby the Ancient with extra attacks from the Wrathbros hoped to do serious damage to the Mighty Lord only for it to pass its saves or its 5++ vs melee attacks (new trait)! John got to roll on the Reality Splitting Axe (now it kicks in immediately rather than at the end of the phase, which resolves the previous rules query as to whether you still have to roll if the MLoK is dead - Rule of Cool said yes!). However, he failed.

Several turns later I still had a lead of 4-0, but in the pivotal combat, the MLoK took D6 damage from my Branch attacks, only for me to roll 2 wounds and then for him to save both of them with the Ward. Then the 2 Talon attacks (still one Wrathbro) hit him and again the ward save held!. John responded as only Khorne could - splitting my reality. I promptly conceded

Reflections

The positives were that despite the bad start, the army was still able to stand up to the Khorne forces for some time. The stars were the 10 Dryads who alone managed to hold up 10 Blood Warriors for 2 turns. 

The negatives were the Spite Revenants the Tree Revenants, the Bow Hunters and the Battalion itself. The Spites only seem to function in a scenario where they enemy are coming towards you and you're hiding in Wyldwoods. This jars with the Dreadwood Battalion itself which seems to operate as an alpha strike list (although it could be used as a bunker perhaps).

The Tree Revanants melted so easily and even when they were able to pounce on the Bloodsecrator in my second turn, they didn't achieve much. Managing 2 wounds (admittedly against a 3+ save) over 2 turns of combat. 

I simply don't understand the supposed power of Bow Hunters, the 4+ to hit just puts them in mediocre or swingy land to me - the range is great, but I'm more impressed by Raptors (let alone Skyfires). I resorted to taking the Damned buff (even without Regrowth as John unbound it automatically), but they still underwhelmed.

The Khorne Book looks solid. The Pilgrims with the rerollable saves and the autounbinds were huge. John rapidly got to 8 Blood Tithe (good work Spite Revenants....sigh) and used the 7 ability.

I'm going to tear up the list - a paid of Ancients seems like a complete fail.

On the plus side, I then got to go and be a guest a few hours later on Warhammer Weekly with @Vincent Venturella and @Thomas Lyons, which was epico! #MostlyGrots

[Paul G]

Did you manage to get off any mortal wounds through the Spites? How was the Moonstone on the TLA? And Dreadwood without Drycha?! You were asking for the pounding@nico [emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Aezeal]

TBH that list just looks weak to me. I just cannot see 600 points in revenants ever be worth it. MAYBE MAYBE in that alpha strike list with Allarielle and tons of scythe hunters.. but not in this list that hardly benefits from that alpha strike potention. 

I also don't see the value of a 2nd tree lord ancient. Since it's biggest thing is the command ability. It's all just my opinion ofcourse but I'd REALLY take Drycha as 2nd big guy. I think her squirmlings just EAT single wound units and well.. that is just nice. She's still reasonably tough AND a caster. The fact she's QUICK also is in her favor since the army lacks speed mostly. After that I'd probably just try a regular treelord (better melee and slightly cheaper) or a Durthu before I'd get a second TLA . 

I agree bowhunters often disappoint.. I've rolled terribly on all shooting in my gnarlroot list (3 hunters and the TLA mainly, rolling aboug 50% 1's on the wound roll of the TLA for example - except Drycha since she just can't really disappoint) but they don't die often either.

I agree dryads are solid.. which is why 10 wounds in dryads is just a MUCH better investment that investing in any revenants I'd say. I can see tree rev's having a niche roll, 5 or maybe 10 in a larger army as mage or artillery killers... BUT in a lot of my games (the 1500 point gnarlroot list I use has 5) there are no viable targets - not seeing much artillery and some mages are just to strong (some chaos mage for example) and IF there are targets often stuff goes wrong anyway.

[Nico]

All good points - thanks for the feedback. I think Drycha is probably better but not much better.

The idea with the Ancient was to get him into combat alongside the Hunters and get stomp going, while my General racked up points. I also hate having 3 Artefacts and only taking 1 (Drycha sucks in that respect). My positioning and target selection were terrible - the Khorgis were the real threat. 

Part of the logic of 2 Ancients was to have a way of getting a Wyldwoods out.

I do find that the Dreadwood is pulling in multiple Directions at once. You have to go first, but then the Outcast Battalion points more towards letting the enemy come into your Wyldwoods and get ground down. The Spites just get shredded before you get a second hero phase unless you pop them behind a Dryad or Kurnoth wall.... but aren't I meant to be alpha striking?

You could run Dreadwood as a gunline bunker/grindfest perhaps.

I agree that Tree Revenants are a lot weaker in a world without crewed artillery. Hitting on 4+ is criminal for such expensive models.

[Nico]

Right - I think this is better.

While Ironbark isn't great, it's half the cost of Winterleaf (the pair of Battalions). The added flexibility is massive.

There are 2 Hammer/tank units. The ranged threat comes from the pop up Aurics.

Will also be an easy transition into 2 KO units instead.

Sorry it's a Branchwych not a Branchwraith.

[Mirage8112]

@Nico I have some thoughts on your report above, but I need some more time to get them all down. 

On the note of your Ironbark list, you really should look at the new stats for them Overlords. Their ranged weaponry really looks like it means business. 

[swarmofseals]

@Nico I'm curious if you've tried a Branchwych with the Silverwood Circlet and The Reaping. Ideally this would work as a sideboard choice for tournaments with sideboards, but it's the kind of thing that will be extremely powerful in the matchups that it's good in. I could see it being really excellent against that Khorne opponent, for example, as they will have a hard time picking it off and are incentivized to use a MSU strategy for blood tithe. It'd be pretty bad against Longstrike/Kurnoth/Skyfire spam lists, of course, but at 100 points it's not that much dead weight. 

[Nico]

Quote

@Nico I'm curious if you've tried a Branchwych with the Silverwood Circlet and The Reaping. Ideally this would work as a sideboard choice for tournaments with sideboards, but it's the kind of thing that will be extremely powerful in the matchups that it's good in. I could see it being really excellent against that Khorne opponent, for example, as they will have a hard time picking it off and are incentivized to use a MSU strategy for blood tithe. It'd be pretty bad against Longstrike/Kurnoth/Skyfire spam lists, of course, but at 100 points it's not that much dead weight. 

Back in the old days, we talked about the Reapingbomb (several dozen pages back) with the free to summon Balewind Vortex being used in conjunction with the Branchwraith (as it can do a hero phase setup move using Forest Folk, so it's in range for an 18" Reaping Bomb).

However, now, the Balewind is 100 points and a 7 to cast, so it's a huge gamble. Also Khorne would just autounbind the Balewind and then you're out of range. 

The points for Sylvaneth are so tight, that putting some on a speculative trick like a Reaping Bomb (only to fail the cast or be unbound) seems reckless.

[Nico]

Quote

@Nico I have some thoughts on your report above, but I need some more time to get them all down. 

On the note of your Ironbark list, you really should look at the new stats for them Overlords. Their ranged weaponry really looks like it means business. 

Thanks @Mirage8112 - I'm hoping you have some good news for Dreadwood, other than going out to buy Alarielle (as the Alarielle list we cooked up together still has legs). I'm kind of tempted to take 1500 points of Dreadwood and then 500 points of Mixed Order, but then you're not really playing Sylvaneth. I'm all over the KO and first thing will be trying them out with Ironbark - I guess a Frigate and 30 Arkanauts to begin with.

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Back in the old days, we talked about the Reapingbomb (several dozen pages back) with the free to summon Balewind Vortex being used in conjunction with the Branchwraith (as it can do a hero phase setup move using Forest Folk, so it's in range for an 18" Reaping Bomb).

However, now, the Balewind is 100 points and a 7 to cast, so it's a huge gamble. Also Khorne would just autounbind the Balewind and then you're out of range. 

The points for Sylvaneth are so tight, that putting some on a speculative trick like a Reaping Bomb (only to fail the cast or be unbound) seems reckless.

I see what you are saying, but is it really necessary to try to move it into place ahead of time? Sure, the most spectacular thing to do is get it as far forward as you can and pop it on the balewind, but like you said that's very risky. You could just move it up with the rest of your army and keep it just behind your lines supporting your frontline with extra AOE damage, no balewind needed. A 9" bubble of d3 mortal wounds plus a second spell is not bad. It's not like it's worthless while you approach either, as you can still use it to cast Verdurous Harmony, Arcane Bolt, or Mystic shield with extra range. 

[Aezeal]

18 hours ago, Nico said:

Right - I think this is better.

While Ironbark isn't great, it's half the cost of Winterleaf (the pair of Battalions). The added flexibility is massive.

There are 2 Hammer/tank units. The ranged threat comes from the pop up Aurics.

Will also be an easy transition into 2 KO units instead.

Sorry it's a Branchwych not a Branchwraith.

I know you probably just like to play a lot of different lists and you probably get a lot of games in.. but I've probably played 3 games since I've seen you put like 10 different lists up here. 

Why not just stick with the Alarielly list or your preferred version of gnarlroot. I really doubt any of these lists are better than those lists.

My main problem with Ironbark is that it forces a regular treelord on you (well assuming you'd still use an ancient which really seems the only viable general choice in our army - we really SHOULD get another viable general btw)  so unless you cut a lot of other stuff you'll not be using Drycha.. and I'm pretty biased in favor of her (I guess that was obvious). The 2x5 tree rev + wraith tax isn't too bad though (not sure I'd go verdant blessing though).

Besides that : I'm not Fyreslayer player.. what do these guys bring that our army doesn't have? And what does the battalion bring? Seems like a bit of a waste of points, you don't use the artefact it gives and hardly anyone benefits from the other bonus. (which leads me back to the 2nd paragraph above)

[the Fel-hand]

As far as the Kurnoth hunters (bows) are concerned I think they work better the more you have. When you just have 3 of them, they are going to be more inconsistent because its a small sample size, so they're going to have games where they appear broken and games where they are horrible. I also think you tend to notice them more because they are almost the sole focus during the shooting phase, and in a lot of sylvaneth lists they make up all your offense turn one.

The Sword and Scythe hunters have more attacks that hit on 3+ which makes them a bit more predictable so in smaller squads you tend to get what expect, and you have other close combats to draw your attention.

[Nico]

I don't have an Alarielle model and I'm skeptical about her in general.

The Aurics pop up and shoot intensively and fairly reliably. They can also pop up nowhere near a Wyldwood. Alternatively, they can pop up in a Wyldwood, which would provide cover.

I agree that the lack of command abilities is a bit painful - the only offensive buff of notes in the army are Alarielle's command ability and Winterleaf on Dryads.

 

[Aezeal]

Played a small (very small, only 4 players) tourney today, 3 games (so we each played each other).

I had a gnarlroot list (TLA in oaken armor and gnarled warrior with regrowth, Drycha with regrowth, wych with circlet and reaping, wych with acorn and verdant blessing, 3 bow hunters, 5 tree revs, 2x 10 dryads and 3 treekin).

It was hard. I kinda slaughtered a high elf compendium player (he doesn't do a lot of AoS and certainly hasn't bought any thing recently).

Next I played an Ogor list on escalation and while we had few models on both sides it was very hard for me to put enough bodies anywhere to get the objectives while avoiding the stonehorn. I could only get one side objective most turns after he was lucky with his rolls 2nd turn and killed a unit of 10 Dryads, drycha and 5 revenants. (Drycha died vs 6 charging ironguts due to damn good rolls on his destruction ability and charge rolls). I planned to get that objective and then move up to the middle (stonehorn was on the other side) but I had to divert 3 treekin and another 10 dryads to that side so I couldn't get enough bodies near the middle for a few turns. He actually got that objective for himself too when he moved a few grots around my troops just for that reason. I actually ended up killing his stonehorn with my TLA (and some backup by shooting and magic) after a 6 wound regrowth. 

Somehow he had enough bodies combined with power to take the objectives he wanted while I lost a lot of bodies early on and while I think I'd have won in kill points somehow but never got around to scoring much points.

The third game was border war against grots (arachnarok, 2 manglers, 40 spears, 2x 20 bows). I THOUGHT I got a good start by scoring 5 points my first turn (advancign with 10 dryads IN nicely placed forests next to the side objectives). But then ran past them with manglers into my back field forcing me to engage with most of my forces and he moved up with tons of goblins so he could score with them (much more models). I ended up killing the manglers before the did much damage but it took me 2 turns. The arachnarok engaged 10 of the dryads on one side and the others got some shooting and magic and died. The arachnarok was killed by the TLA (even though 4 fanatatics also visited there) but on both sides he scored 5 points turn 2 and 3. My turn 3 I cleared on side and HAD there been a turn 4 I'd have easily matched his points and in turn 5 I'd have passed him if I'd not tabled him then (he still had 80 spearmen near his back objectives.. but Drycha's squirmlings probably would have killed 2/3  (or  more) of them turn 4 and then likely the rest of them would have ran). BUT the 2nd game took a bit to long(as did my magic phases) so this game had to be cut short after 3 turns with me being behind in points.

Anyway I think I killed more points than my opponent in most games even against the Ogors.. but I ended up loosing a lot of points in turn 1-3 in most games (I was never behind against the elf player though).  

The TLA NEVER died, nor did the bow hunters but I never had enough bodies pushing on objectives. I think bow hunters just don't help there, I think melee hunters might have pushed enemies quicker from objectives AND they'd have been a few crucial bodies more. having 2 behemoths doesn't help with that either.

All in all the objective game seems HARD for sylvaneth (at least when I'm playing with this list) even though I'm dominating in other respects.

[swarmofseals]

23 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Tournament Report

 

Yeah, I think you are hitting on something at the 1500 point level. You have a lot of points sunk into support heroes, which makes you very tough at this points level but also makes it hard to push because your model count is medium-low and your damage output is very low (the only hard hitting unit is Drycha, unless you get your reaping bomb in a very favorable position).

[Paul G]

How'd you find the Treekin? Just got 3 myself!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nico]

So Ironbark enthusiasts who have just  emerged from hiding in the woods, what do you think of this:

 

This is a solid base and leaves 460 points to play with. I'm inclined to go with 9 Endrinriggers and an Aether Khemist, who then buffs the 3 Drill Cannons. This gives you a first turn pew pew threat - cranking the maths it looks comparable to that of Kurnoth Pew Pew vs 4+ saves, but it's a lot better vs tank units. Also a little bit of luck on the hit rolls and you can inflict catastrophic damage on a target. The Endrinriggers are a bit squishier than Hunters (as fewer wounds per model). The effective range is a tasty 36". You might want to pop Mystic Shield on them.

Another option would be to take 2 Drill Cannons and a Grapnel Launcher. Then having let fly at the enemy with Pew Pew in the shooting phase - you can Grapnel way back into your own territory up to 24" (on a 4+) at the end of that phase.

[Aezeal]

12 hours ago, Paul G said:

How'd you find the Treekin? Just got 3 myself!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They are actually solid, when I played against ogres I noticed my 100 points of treekin actually had +1 to hit (when in 18 inch of sylvanth hero.. which is basicly always and +1 save) instead of their banner, bellower and charge bonusses which they have at 120 points.. seems like a good trade. However they are (again) a unit with low body count. 

 

14 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

 

Yeah, I think you are hitting on something at the 1500 point level. You have a lot of points sunk into support heroes, which makes you very tough at this points level but also makes it hard to push because your model count is medium-low and your damage output is very low (the only hard hitting unit is Drycha, unless you get your reaping bomb in a very favorable position).

Well my TLA usually is terrible in combat and shooting (I'm getting a loremaster instead of the acorn/verdant blessing wych just to boost him and Drycha)  but in one turn all 3 main attacks went through and did 15 wounds :D. He's not just support, I shove him into combat when I can (since in my earlier games I already noticed that keeping him OUT of combat is effectively removing a lot of points from the army - AND he DID kill a lord on stonehorn with some help - though those guys REALLY need to be A LOT of points more expensive). But I need more bodies AND more pushing power to destroy opposition on an objective.

As I said it's not even that total damage output is THAT low, I think I did more killpoints against all the armies. I hope I can put it into words better now:

Over a WHOLE game (and then we need the full 5 turns) we have a VERY good damage output since a LOT of our troops are very resilient, killing more than x10 dryads and 5 revenants is NOT that easy for opponents. HOWEVER opponent DO kill those 3 units quickly and then score points for like 3 turns before we've killed their high damage dealers monsters which are less tough (in the goblin game the manglers and the Arachnarok, in the Ogor game a unit of 6 ironguts and the stonehorn) and only if we do that quick enough we can try to score points with our remaining bodies (which have to be spread THIN then to do that. In the Goblin game I would've been  able to score enough if I'd have 5 turns, in the ogor game I was just too much behind (I only started scoring more than one point in turn 5) even though I'd killed most of his army by then. 

I do agree that on 2k points with 6 more hunters and another 10 dryads things might be different.

Tree revenants where a total bust btw. In non of my games there was EVER a viable target for then in range of a teleport place. They got destroyed by the D6 mortal wounds of the stone lord before he even hit, shot to pieces by arrows and magic in other games (and in my recent pre trouney games against chaos I couldn't really teleport them into the backfield to fight with a hellcanon or sayl with his beasty eitehr. I KNOW they might have a role but IMHO it's too niche.. but if I'd had 20 more points and didn't NEED them for gnarlroot I'd replace them by 10 more dryads ASAP. I just DO NOT like them for these points. Actually I'd probably not get more of them even for 80 points. 

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

So Ironbark enthusiasts who have just  emerged from hiding in the woods, what do you think of this:

 

This is a solid base and leaves 460 points to play with. I'm inclined to go with 9 Endrinriggers and an Aether Khemist, who then buffs the 3 Drill Cannons. This gives you a first turn pew pew threat - cranking the maths it looks comparable to that of Kurnoth Pew Pew vs 4+ saves, but it's a lot better vs tank units. Also a little bit of luck on the hit rolls and you can inflict catastrophic damage on a target. The Endrinriggers are a bit squishier than Hunters (as fewer wounds per model). The effective range is a tasty 36". You might want to pop Mystic Shield on them.

Another option would be to take 2 Drill Cannons and a Grapnel Launcher. Then having let fly at the enemy with Pew Pew in the shooting phase - you can Grapnel way back into your own territory up to 24" (on a 4+) at the end of that phase.

Why the spites instead of going for 20 dryads in the dryad unit, I know I'm biased against any revenants and you seem to like them a lot.. but still I just don't see any benefit in the trade, in damage output (well maybe spites are slightly better here to start.. but after getting 2 wounds the dryads surely do more damage and after 5 wounds....), wounds, saves etc etc. And ofcourse.. and tying into my previous 2 posts... just BODIES for objectives.

[Nico]

Quote

They are actually solid, when I played against ogres I noticed my 100 points of treekin actually had +1 to hit (when in 18 inch of sylvanth hero.. which is basicly always and +1 save) instead of their banner, bellower and charge bonusses which they have at 120 points.. seems like a good trade. However they are (again) a unit with low body count. 

Treekin are bonkers good for their cost - 12 wounds for 100 points and a 4+ save. It's reroll hits rather than +1, but that's still an actual offensive synergy, which is a rare sight. 2" range as well.