Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[N_Watson]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

It's amazing how much I want the Darkroot Wargrove to have points. I think it's pre-order this weekend.

(Ditto the Ironjawz Thunderfist).

 

Have you seen what the formations do yet? 

[Rhellion]

23 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

Leaders

Spirit of Durthu (400)
Treelord Ancient (300)
Branchwych (100)

Units

Kurnoth Hunters x 6 (360)
- Scythes
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows

Battalions

Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)
Free Spirits (40)

Total: 2000/2000

 

 

I've been writing Sylvaneth lists non stop for the last few days, and this is an exact one I wrote and kept coming back to. I really think this one balanced and competes well.

[Nico]

I think I've described this (or small variants like having two Ancients and an extra Branchwych as being the default or go-to Sylvaneth army. Other permutations would be switching Kurnoth Hunters to extra Dryads since the difference between 10 Dryads and 20 Dryads is massive. The combination of +1 save, +1 effective bravery, 20 extra attacks (due to their fat 2 inch range) is huge.

I think you do need to brace yourself for Free Spirits being comped though, so you need to get used to Durthu popping up and failing a 9 charge (mitigated a lot if you play for the double turn with your single drop army). The other option is to take a Starseer as your Gnarlroot Order Wizard. Not only does he have a nifty and occasionally game winning spell - changing that Archaon Slayer of Derps (6, 6, 4, 2) wound roll to (6, 5, 4, 2) - he also packs in up to 6 "team rerolls" in Bloodbowl speak.... You could use these to reroll a Durthu charge, a stomp, any other spell and of course initiative rolls (and a potential hard counter to Kairos trolling the initiative roll). 

[Nico]

So I think I'm right in thinking that overnight we'll get the pre-order for the new Darkroot Wargrove. The box description will probably say whether there is a Warscroll for a Battalion inside. The big question is then will it be pointed for matched play? Some kind of melee buff (or just anything to buff Spite Revenants) would be particularly nice. It includes 5 Spite Revenants and 5 Tree Revenants on the picture, so perhaps it will require that exact combo or a mix of either.

[Rhellion]

13 minutes ago, Nico said:

So I think I'm right in thinking that overnight we'll get the pre-order for the new Darkroot Wargrove. The box description will probably say whether there is a Warscroll for a Battalion inside. The big question is then will it be pointed for matched play? Some kind of melee buff (or just anything to buff Spite Revenants) would be particularly nice. It includes 5 Spite Revenants and 5 Tree Revenants on the picture, so perhaps it will require that exact combo or a mix of either.

 

It will likely come with a formation, and that formation will NOT have points. Like all of the Start Collecting boxes.

[Nico]

Quote

It will likely come with a formation, and that formation will NOT have points. Like all of the Start Collecting boxes.

I agree this is what past form would suggest. I'm hoping for a change (both for Fyreslayers and perhaps even more so for Ironjawz) - I think they get a lot of feedback saying give points for additional battalions. This is a difficult task, because some battalions are so broken in matched play since they are designed for narrative play. Thankfully Brotherhood of the Great Derps never made it to a tournament I'm aware of (and shouldn't do), but some of them would be appropriate for matched play (e.g. Neferata's Blood Court, probably some of the Fyreslayer ones, the Arkhan one and the Bloodscorched Bulltribe spring to mind).

The only method would be to go back and manually point them and sift out ones that shouldn't see the light of matched play. Mediocre Joe made a start at this exercise, but it's hard to find motivation if there's no guarantee that it will ever be used. I've thought about doing a community Fyreslayer Allegiance pack (with a view to it being better than the Order pack but not as good as the Death or Sylvaneth allegiance packs), but it would need to be annexed to the house rules for an event, might be controversial etc.. You could in principle offer to your opponent in each game at an event the choice of playing with your pack or the normal Order one - but I have no idea how that would pan out. 

I know Tyler Mengel has done his TK Battletome and Allegiance Pack and it looks amazing. However, I don't see UK tournaments at least being receptive to anything other than hard nerfs or outright bans for the Snake Surfers.

Thoughts?

[Nico]

Quote

An instant collection in a box, this Battleforce contains 18 Sylvaneth miniatures, and a Warscroll Battalion – the Darkroot Wargrove – meaning that as soon as you’ve assembled and painted this mighty assortment you can field them in a game of Warhammer Age of Sigmar!

Well the obvious part is true - there is a Warscroll Battalion. So the big question is: will it have points?

[scrubyandwells]

Hi guys, when playing Escalation, does anyone know if we've received real clarity on how to set up battalions/units with off-the-table deployment rules, e.g., a Sylvaneth Wargrove battalion? I know this has been discussed at length, but can't find a crystal-clear answer.

[Nico]

My understanding is based on what Les Martin @Lez explained on one of the Facehammer videos for the Facehammer GT.

Let's take Gnarlroot and say there are 10 units in the army.

1. You do count the number of units irrespective of battalions and things like Runesmiters (don't think about "drops" it just makes thing more confusing).
2. There are 10 units, so this becomes waves of 4, 4, 2. I trust that's clear for everyone but please ask.
3. For deployment, you can still deploy the first wave of 4 units using the battalion rules. In particular you can deploy part of a battalion as a single drop then deploy the rest as multiple drops thereafter (the only thing you cannot seem to do is deploy a single unit from the battalion, then the rest of the battalion as a single drop - see the hints that introduce Warscroll Battalions in each Battletome - it's not 100% flexible).
4. So you could deploy a unit of Tree Revenants and 2 units of Dryads and an Ancient as your first wave as a single drop. You have to put all the Battleline units in wave 1 (unless you have an overflow of Battleline units into wave 2  - e.g. Ironjawz could have this problem since all their uits will be battleline and they are often MSU - which looks like a lame side effect of Escalation - has this happened to you @Chris Tomlin ? Are you stucking deploying no heroes until wave 3?)
5. You could put the Tree Revenants and the Ancient on the table and the Dryads in the Hidden Enclaves if you wish. 
6. You don't have to deploy something even if you've paid for it (see the core rules, you can stop deploying when you like), so you can junk the formation and lose the points and the buffs (you might want to do this with Ghoul Patrol if you've messed up the unit count).
7. Wave 2 would then be 4 units of whatever - in your hero phase you can deploy these to your Hidden Enclaves if you wish or onto the table.
8. You start shooting yourself in the foot when the battalion requires that everything deploy together, Clan Skryre, Skyborne Slayers and Ghoul Patrol are examples. Here you have to keep deploying waves off the table to "fill up" the Engine Coven, battalion etc.. This is a major reason why Warrior Brotherhood is preferred to Skyborne Slayers.

I think that's about it. Any comments? Especially from @Lez 

[scrubyandwells]

47 minutes ago, Nico said:

My understanding is based on what Les Martin @Lez explained on one of the Facehammer videos for the Facehammer GT.

Let's take Gnarlroot and say there are 10 units in the army.

1. You do count the number of units irrespective of battalions and things like Runesmiters (don't think about "drops" it just makes thing more confusing).
2. There are 10 units, so this becomes waves of 4, 4, 2. I trust that's clear for everyone but please ask.
3. For deployment, you can still deploy the first wave of 4 units using the battalion rules. In particular you can deploy part of a battalion as a single drop then deploy the rest as multiple drops thereafter (the only thing you cannot seem to do is deploy a single unit from the battalion, then the rest of the battalion as a single drop - see the hints that introduce Warscroll Battalions in each Battletome - it's not 100% flexible).
4. So you could deploy a unit of Tree Revenants and 2 units of Dryads and an Ancient as your first wave as a single drop. You have to put all the Battleline units in wave 1 (unless you have an overflow of Battleline units into wave 2  - e.g. Ironjawz could have this problem since all their uits will be battleline and they are often MSU - which looks like a lame side effect of Escalation - has this happened to you @Chris Tomlin ? Are you stucking deploying no heroes until wave 3?)
5. You could put the Tree Revenants and the Ancient on the table and the Dryads in the Hidden Enclaves if you wish. 
6. You don't have to deploy something even if you've paid for it (see the core rules, you can stop deploying when you like), so you can junk the formation and lose the points and the buffs (you might want to do this with Ghoul Patrol if you've messed up the unit count).
7. Wave 2 would then be 4 units of whatever - in your hero phase you can deploy these to your Hidden Enclaves if you wish or onto the table.
8. You start shooting yourself in the foot when the battalion requires that everything deploy together, Clan Skryre, Skyborne Slayers and Ghoul Patrol are examples. Here you have to keep deploying waves off the table to "fill up" the Engine Coven, battalion etc.. This is a major reason why Warrior Brotherhood is preferred to Skyborne Slayers.

I think that's about it. Any comments? Especially from @Lez 

Greatly appreciate the breakdown. This is rather involved isn't, it? So if I'm following you, let's say at the start you do put all of your 4 units (group A) into the hidden enclaves. I'm imagining this would mean, in your Rd 2, along with setting up your next 4 units (group B), you could also bring onto the table, in your movement phase, any of your group A units via the Sylvaneth's Forest Spirits battle trait, thus giving you the potential to deploy onto the table up to 8 units in your Rd 2. Anything off there?

[Forestreveries]

Greatly appreciate the breakdown. This is rather involved isn't, it? So if I'm following you, let's say at the start you do put all of your 4 units (group A) into the hidden enclaves. I'm imagining this would mean, in your Rd 2, along with setting up your next 4 units (group B), you could also bring onto the table, in your movement phase, any of your group A units via the Sylvaneth's Forest Spirits battle trait, thus giving you the potential to deploy onto the table up to 8 units in your Rd 2. Anything off there?

It's really not as complicated as it seems.@Nico has broken it down into the simplest points there and given examples.

The only thing that changed from a normal deployment is the timing.

If you imagine you have two off - table areas;

One is the hidden enclaves, one is essentially your reserves.

Place all your units in the reserves area at the start of the game.

Then just follow the rules as written. When you come to set up a unit, either do so in the hidden enclaves, or onto the table, as per any other battleplan.

You are only allowed (in the example of 10 units) to set up 4 units, which must be battleline if there are any remaining in your reserves area, on turn 1.

Turn 2 you may set up another 4 units from your reserves area, including any remaining battleline units (if you had more than 4).
Whether you set them up in the hidden enclaves or on the table is down to you, as per deployment in a normal game.

When it comes to battalions, imagine you can set up your allowance this turn from the reserves area, plus anything in the Hidden Enclaves that is a part of that battalion.

The only thing you are not allowed to do, is deploy more than your allowance each turn from the reserves area.

Hope that helps.


Aaron


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Nico]

Quote

Greatly appreciate the breakdown. This is rather involved isn't, it? So if I'm following you, let's say at the start you do put all of your 4 units (group A) into the hidden enclaves. I'm imagining this would mean, in your Rd 2, along with setting up your next 4 units (group B), you could also bring onto the table, in your movement phase, any of your group A units via the Sylvaneth's Forest Spirits battle trait, thus giving you the potential to deploy onto the table up to 8 units in your Rd 2. Anything off there?

You're very welcome.

Aaron's metaphor for it is helpful.

So the tactical question is then, if I don't deploy the Battleline units i.e. keep them in the Hidden Enclaves (to stop them getting eaten by enemy Judicators say) - will my opponent be able to block off my sole Wyldwood in their first turn; and what if they get the double turn?

The wave 2 units could come in either as (a) deploy in Hidden Enclaves (in hero phase) then in movement phase appear near the Wyldwoods or (b) deploy on the board edge subject to the 12 inch rule of the Battleplan. 

Several people will have forgotten at some stage that you only score in Round 2 onwards in Escalation. I've remembered this for the last few months. This means that lobbing your battleline wave one onto the objectives if you get the first turn can be a lose-lose. This contrasts with Border War where going first isn't so bad because you can get a 5-0 lead or sometimes a 9-0 lead off the bat.

Pew Pew Battleline are very good as are teleporting battleline like Tree Revenants and the Forest Folk battalion. I suspect you would need to deploy the whole of the Forest Folk as Wave one before you can use the teleport (or maybe it's just all of the units that are on the table, so you can do it, but those not yet deployed will never get to use it - check the wording).  

I believe that the optimal number of units is likely to be either 10 (4, 4, 2) or 13 (5, 5, 3). 9 is particularly bad (3, 3, 3). Thoughts?

Escalation is fascinating for many reasons and particularly because it is the only battleplan where making the opponent go first in Battleround 2 can be hugely advantageous. For example if they have to commit everything to the table and try to start scoring the objectives, whereas your second wave could be some kind of horrific counter punch.

When I played at Blood & Glory - my second wave was Gordrakk, 10 Wolves and the last 2 units of Nasty Skulkers, so I had an invincible (as off the table) counterpunch that would very easily make a 12 inch effective charge and contained my full alpha strike combo (the 3 units of Nasty Skulkers would be within in the Wolves or within the Wolves and each other - which I wrote down before battleround 1 started - Schrodinger's Grots). Had my opponent had to commit his forces beforehand to the objectives, I could (in theory) have completely decimated them at will and then taken the objective. I think I lost the initiative roll on the day.

 

[Knight of Ruin]

A discussion on facebook makes me ask this.

 

If you use the move in the hero phase in order to retreat, can you then still charge or shoot in that turn?

 

[rokapoke]

35 minutes ago, Knight of Ruin said:

A discussion on facebook makes me ask this.

 

If you use the move in the hero phase in order to retreat, can you then still charge or shoot in that turn?

 

From the four page rules, you cannot shoot or charge if it has retreated this turn. 

[Knight of Ruin]

But the argument is.. That a move in the hero phade is never counted as a retreat because it isnt in the movement phase..

 

 

(i disagree with that btw)

[Forestreveries]

But the argument is.. That a move in the hero phade is never counted as a retreat because it isnt in the movement phase..
 
 
(i disagree with that btw)

I bet the same people who'd say that would also try to argue they can use abilities like the spirit paths to teleport because it says as if it were the movement phase! ;(


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Mirage8112]

I bet the same people who'd say that would also try to argue they can use abilities like the spirit paths to teleport because it says as if it were the movement phase! ;(

Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

GW has ruled that moves made in the hero phase count as retreating and a unit that retreats cannot charge that turn. Per the FAQ and the rampaging destroyers special rule.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nico]

Quote

 

The real question is whether it's a "move" or a "setup" - if the latter then there are no restrictions on where models go except express ones; and it's not a retreat (since a retreat is a move). Being both a move and a set up is a contradiction in terms. It has to be one or the other.

Look at the descriptions of move and set up on page 2 of the FAQ. I'm increasingly certain that any given ability cannot be both. If you look at the recent description of the Warrior Brotherhood for example, this becomes very clear: 

Quote

What’s great about this particular battalion is that it allows every unit to deploy using Lightening Strikes. This means you don’t need to set them up on the board and can instead deploy your army within 3″ of the enemy (it’s normally further away than this, but clever placement of the two Knight-Azyros models reduce this)!

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/29/top-5-lists-from-blood-glory/

The wording of Warrior Brotherhood has the confusing wording: "This is its move for that movement phase."

Given the above explanation given by GW, this type of ability is a set up and not a move (the primary wording is set up the unit). The secondary wording in the paragraph above (as I've long said) means that the set up of the models uses up the unit's ability to move in the movement phase (not that the rule is both a set up and a move). 

This means that you can use Navigate Realmroots to escape combat and still shoot (subject to not rolling Tangled Roots) or even long bomb charge.

The distinction between moves and set up rules is fundamental to the game - some of the most important FAQ answers are on this subject.

 

 

[Mirage8112]

4 hours ago, Nico said:

The real question is whether it's a "move" or a "setup" - if the latter then there are no restrictions on where models go except express ones; and it's not a retreat (since a retreat is a move). Being both a move and a set up is a contradiction in terms. It has to be one or the other.

I think that's splitting hairs. Normally hairs are important, but in this case, I don't think it makes a difference. The wording of of retreat is as follows, "Units starting the movement phase within 3" of the enemy can either remain stationary or retreat." Notice it doesn't say "remain stationary or move" it says "remain stationary OR retreat." It then goes onto explain that if you choose not to remain stationary your must end your movement more than 3" from any enemy units. 
 

4 hours ago, Nico said:

Given the above explanation given by GW, this type of ability is a set up and not a move (the primary wording is set up the unit). The secondary wording in the paragraph above (as I've long said) means that the set up of the models uses up the unit's ability to move in the movement phase (not that the rule is both a set up and a move). 

This means that you can use Navigate Realmroots to escape combat and still shoot (subject to not rolling Tangled Roots) or even long bomb charge.

The distinction between moves and set up rules is fundamental to the game - some of the most important FAQ answers are on this subject.

Again "set-up" or "move" doesn't matter. You don't get a third choice, rules as written you either "remain stationary" or "retreat". HOW  you retreat doesn't matter. Whether you retreat by "setting up" the models elsewhere from an ability, or "navigating the realmroots" out of combat, or roll high enough on Destructions' "rampaging destroyers" allegiance ability, move via "swift vengeance" from the freespirits battalion; it's all the same. You can either remain stationary or retreat. 

This is doubly enforced because all of the out of sequence actions that take place in the hero phase are typically made "as if it were the movement phase". This means at the start of the action you are subject to all the privileges and benefits of a normal movement phase. You are also subject to its restrictions; i.e. you may either remain stationary or retreat. 

The only exception I can see to this would be the forest folk's "fade from view" battalion ability, since it specifies that the action happens in the hero phase but isn't done "as if it were the movement phase"; it just sort of "happens". Since the "remain stionary / retreat" choice happens at the start of the movement phase,  in this one single case you might be able to make an argument that it doesn't count as a retreat move since it doesn't happen in the movement phase, and doesn't happen "as if it were the movement phase".  

But truthfully, I think this is a technicality. It may correct RAW, but I don't think it's RAI and I'm pretty sure it would be FAQ'd to count as retreating. (I say this because it's pretty clear from previous rulings that the only way GW sees models leaving combat is via a retreat. I don't think they are what phase it happens in.)

4 hours ago, Nico said:

The distinction between moves and set up rules is fundamental to the game - some of the most important FAQ answers are on this subject.

It is, and there are plenty of places where the distinction is important. This is not one of them.  

[scrubyandwells]

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Again "set-up" or "move" doesn't matter. You don't get a third choice, rules as written you either "remain stationary" or "retreat". HOW  you retreat doesn't matter. Whether you retreat by "setting up" the models elsewhere from an ability, or "navigating the realmroots" out of combat, or roll high enough on Destructions' "rampaging destroyers" allegiance ability, move via "swift vengeance" from the freespirits battalion; it's all the same. You can either remain stationary or retreat.

FWIW I've also been playing it as Frank has outlined. 

[scrubyandwells]

20 hours ago, Nico said:

You're very welcome.

Aaron's metaphor for it is helpful.

So the tactical question is then, if I don't deploy the Battleline units i.e. keep them in the Hidden Enclaves (to stop them getting eaten by enemy Judicators say) - will my opponent be able to block off my sole Wyldwood in their first turn; and what if they get the double turn?

The wave 2 units could come in either as (a) deploy in Hidden Enclaves (in hero phase) then in movement phase appear near the Wyldwoods or (b) deploy on the board edge subject to the 12 inch rule of the Battleplan. 

Several people will have forgotten at some stage that you only score in Round 2 onwards in Escalation. I've remembered this for the last few months. This means that lobbing your battleline wave one onto the objectives if you get the first turn can be a lose-lose. This contrasts with Border War where going first isn't so bad because you can get a 5-0 lead or sometimes a 9-0 lead off the bat.

Pew Pew Battleline are very good as are teleporting battleline like Tree Revenants and the Forest Folk battalion. I suspect you would need to deploy the whole of the Forest Folk as Wave one before you can use the teleport (or maybe it's just all of the units that are on the table, so you can do it, but those not yet deployed will never get to use it - check the wording).  

I believe that the optimal number of units is likely to be either 10 (4, 4, 2) or 13 (5, 5, 3). 9 is particularly bad (3, 3, 3). Thoughts?

Escalation is fascinating for many reasons and particularly because it is the only battleplan where making the opponent go first in Battleround 2 can be hugely advantageous. For example if they have to commit everything to the table and try to start scoring the objectives, whereas your second wave could be some kind of horrific counter punch.

When I played at Blood & Glory - my second wave was Gordrakk, 10 Wolves and the last 2 units of Nasty Skulkers, so I had an invincible (as off the table) counterpunch that would very easily make a 12 inch effective charge and contained my full alpha strike combo (the 3 units of Nasty Skulkers would be within in the Wolves or within the Wolves and each other - which I wrote down before battleround 1 started - Schrodinger's Grots). Had my opponent had to commit his forces beforehand to the objectives, I could (in theory) have completely decimated them at will and then taken the objective. I think I lost the initiative roll on the day.

 

21 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

Hope that helps.

Aaron

 

Cool, thanks guys. In general, I'd probably tend toward 10 (4, 4, 2) for Escalation, e.g. (below is Gnarlroot):

• Treelord Ancient 
• Branchwych
• Branchwych
• 20 Dryads 
• 10 Dryads 
• 5 Tree-Revenants 
• 6 Kurnoth (Scythes) 
• 3 Kurnoth (Greatswords)
• 3 Kurnoth (Greatbows) 
• 3 Kurnoth (Greatbows)  

Still liking that list. It's also at 1,960, so decent odds of a valuable Triumph for (probably) the 6 Kurnoth-scythes, unless it's the re-roll saves result, although that could be useful if facing tough non-mortal-wound shooting.

Also liked @Forestreveries + @Rhellion's list re: Durthu + TLA (+ I think @Antipodean7 is running it). It's been in my lists doc as well but always been concerned about its low-model #, although we just saw @ravman get a top 5 finish at B&G with extremely few models, so hell if I know.

[Nico]

 

Quote

I think that's splitting hairs. Normally hairs are important, but in this case, I don't think it makes a difference. The wording of of retreat is as follows, "Units starting the movement phase within 3" of the enemy can either remain stationary or retreat." Notice it doesn't say "remain stationary or move" it says "remain stationary OR retreat." It then goes onto explain that if you choose not to remain stationary your must end your movement more than 3" from any enemy units. 

I think the distinction between moves and set up rules is perhaps the most important distinction in the game at the moment. It cost an opponent a point in one of my games at Blood & Glory because he wrongly thought that setting up a Cairn Wraith (via summoning) on an objective was a move (which is what Three Places of Power requires for you to score that turn). The referee agreed with me that it's a set up, so unless the Cairn Wraith can do a subsequent pile in or charge, it doesn't score that turn (this also hampered my Runesmiter setting up from underground the day before - so it cut both ways). It is also one of the reasons why the Warrior Brotherhood is doing so well so many tournaments (partly because people aren't looking at the rule in detail and working you how to deploy correctly - thinking about 3 inch range Protectors reaching over multiple chaff models); and why the Clan Skryre battalion is so feared and hated (even if it hasn't won a major event to my knowledge).

Quote

This is doubly enforced because all of the out of sequence actions that take place in the hero phase are typically made "as if it were the movement phase". This means at the start of the action you are subject to all the privileges and benefits of a normal movement phase. You are also subject to its restrictions; i.e. you may either remain stationary or retreat. 

Firstly, this does happen in the movement phase.

The key question remains whether it's a set up or a move - perhaps look again at the set up and move FAQ answers on page two of the FAQ (left and right columns). On my reading, the FAQ answer could scarcely be more explicit about GW driving a wedge between set up and move and the difference is massive for so many rules (it gives examples, it specifies that you can deploy the models adjacent etc.). 

I should say I'm not 100% on this (because the rules do use inconsistent wording about instead of moving etc. which muddies the distinction that the FAQ has drawn.). Your argument to me is falling into the fallacy of forgetting that a special rule (by definition) breaks the normal rules - the question is then which rules are broken and which rules you still need to fit into. I see it as follows, your premise that you still only have two options (a) remain stationary or (b) retreat is wrong. The special rule (without needing to apply a purposive interpretation) is adding on a third option (c) instead of doing what you normally do, set up the models elsewhere (therefore not a retreat). It's not amending (b) because (b) is a move and Navigate Realmroots is a set up rule - for a rule to be both a move and a set up is a contradiction (because both FAQs answers would be engaged and it both would and would not trigger a Gryph Hound).

Navigate Realmroots is a lengthy and self-contained special rule (i.e. you can use it without reference to any other rules (other than the FAQ on set up), it certainly doesn't expressly refer to retreating etc..) which breaks the normal rule and in my eyes it is adding a choice that sits on top of the two existing choices (in the circumstances where you are within 3 inches to start off with). The fact that Navigate Realmroots has a special table that you roll for seeing what you can do later adds weight to this. The result of a 6 seems inconsistent with it being a set up. The wording could be better - there are some secondary references to moving in the table which muddy the water - but as with the Warrior Brotherhood - the primary wording is "set up", which they have seen as trumping the secondary wording. 

However, I can entirely see why your opponents would try to chisel down your abilities which they wrongly perceive as being overpowered; and why you would concede the point to them (especially for friendly/non-competitive games). 

I'm obviously more relucant than some to concede any more ground on Sylvaneth rules. This is really just a question of whether Kurnoth Hunters with Bows can get out of combat and go snipe something else - it's not a huge point. However, we need to brace ourselves for Free Spirits no longer working as an alpha strike - brace ourselves for Wyldwoods being comped at independent events down to one Citadel Wood per Wyldwood - brace ourselves for the temerity of Beastclaw Raider (battlebrew spam and better healing than Sylvaneth) players to moan when their monsters (which are on absurdly small bases for their value in the game I would add) have to waddle around Wyldwoods instead of going through them (please note that I personally would prefer to play the Wyldwoods as flat cover - mostly to save time, arguments, models toppling over; and potentially to save money - however, the meta seems to be that they do block movement over the circles where the trees fit, so that's how I would now play it at an event).  

Quote

The only exception I can see to this would be the forest folk's "fade from view" battalion ability, since it specifies that the action happens in the hero phase but isn't done "as if it were the movement phase"; it just sort of "happens". Since the "remain stionary / retreat" choice happens at the start of the movement phase,  in this one single case you might be able to make an argument that it doesn't count as a retreat move since it doesn't happen in the movement phase, and doesn't happen "as if it were the movement phase".  

I agree that the Forest Spirits one is 100% on my side of the argument - it's in the hero phase, it's a classic Vexillor/Skitterleap teleport rule, it clearly uses the set up wording. It doesn't say "as if it were the movement phase". 

The Tree Revenants' Waypipes to me is also clear. It's adding on an option (c), which is a set up rule.

 

[Aezeal]

18 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

But the argument is.. That a move in the hero phade is never counted as a retreat because it isnt in the movement phase..

 

 

(i disagree with that btw)

This is ridiculous... if you move as if in the movement phase it also has the same restriction.

[Aezeal]

13 minutes ago, Nico said:

 

I think the distinction between moves and set up rules is perhaps the most important distinction in the game at the moment. It cost an opponent a point in one of my games at Blood & Glory because he wrongly thought that setting up a Cairn Wraith (via summoning) on an objective was a move (which is what Three Places of Power requires for you to score that turn). The referee agreed with me that it's a set up, so unless the Cairn Wraith can do a subsequent pile in or charge, it doesn't score that turn (this also hampered my Runesmiter setting up from underground the day before - so it cut both ways). It is also one of the reasons why the Warrior Brotherhood is doing so well so many tournaments (partly because people aren't looking at the rule in detail and working you how to deploy correctly - thinking about 3 inch range Protectors reaching over multiple chaff models); and why the Clan Skryre battalion is so feared and hated (even if it hasn't won a major event to my knowledge).

Firstly, this does happen in the movement phase.

The key question remains whether it's a set up or a move - perhaps look again at the set up and move FAQ answers on page two of the FAQ (left and right columns). On my reading, the FAQ answer could scarcely be more explicit about GW driving a wedge between set up and move and the difference is massive for so many rules (it gives examples, it specifies that you can deploy the models adjacent etc.). 

I should say I'm not 100% on this (because the rules do use inconsistent wording about instead of moving etc. which muddies the distinction that the FAQ has drawn.). Your argument to me is falling into the fallacy of forgetting that a special rule (by definition) breaks the normal rules - the question is then which rules are broken and which rules you still need to fit into. I see it as follows, your premise that you still only have two options (a) remain stationary or (b) retreat is wrong. The special rule (without needing to apply a purposive interpretation) is adding on a third option (c) instead of doing what you normally do, set up the models elsewhere (therefore not a retreat). It's not amending (b) because (b) is a move and Navigate Realmroots is a set up rule - for a rule to be both a move and a set up is a contradiction (because both FAQs answers would be engaged and it both would and would not trigger a Gryph Hound).

Navigate Realmroots is a lengthy and self-contained special rule (i.e. you can use it without reference to any other rules (other than the FAQ on set up), it certainly doesn't expressly refer to retreating etc..) which breaks the normal rule and in my eyes it is adding a choice that sits on top of the two existing choices (in the circumstances where you are within 3 inches to start off with). The fact that Navigate Realmroots has a special table that you roll for seeing what you can do later adds weight to this. The result of a 6 seems inconsistent with it being a set up. The wording could be better - there are some secondary references to moving in the table which muddy the water - but as with the Warrior Brotherhood - the primary wording is "set up", which they have seen as trumping the secondary wording. 

However, I can entirely see why your opponents would try to chisel down your abilities which they wrongly perceive as being overpowered; and why you would concede the point to them (especially for friendly/non-competitive games). 

I'm obviously more relucant than some to concede any more ground on Sylvaneth rules. This is really just a question of whether Kurnoth Hunters with Bows can get out of combat and go snipe something else - it's not a huge point. However, we need to brace ourselves for Free Spirits no longer working as an alpha strike - brace ourselves for Wyldwoods being comped at independent events down to one Citadel Wood per Wyldwood - brace ourselves for the temerity of Beastclaw Raider (battlebrew spam and better healing than Sylvaneth) players to moan when their monsters (which are on absurdly small bases for their value in the game I would add) have to waddle around Wyldwoods instead of going through them (please note that I personally would prefer to play the Wyldwoods as flat cover - mostly to save time, arguments, models toppling over; and potentially to save money - however, the meta seems to be that they do block movement over the circles where the trees fit, so that's how I would now play it at an event).  

I agree that the Forest Spirits one is 100% on my side of the argument - it's in the hero phase, it's a classic Vexillor/Skitterleap teleport rule, it clearly uses the set up wording. It doesn't say "as if it were the movement phase". 

The Tree Revenants' Waypipes to me is also clear. It's adding on an option (c), which is a set up rule.

 

Nice post. I THINK I agree with all your points. (Also agreeing on not really agreeing with moving around forest trees. It would be ridiculous for Alarielle or treelords not to be able to enter a forest.

[Nico]

Pleased to say that I picked up two of the new Battleforce: Darkwood Wargrove boxes over the weekend. The discount with FLGS was a whopping 60% off. 

This might be coming down the pipeline:

LEADERS

Treelord Ancient (300)

- General

- Artefact : The Oaken Armour

- Command Trait : Gnarled Warrior

Treelord Ancient (300)

- Artefact : The Oaken Armour

Drycha Hamadreth (280)

Branchwych (100)

- Artefact : Ranu's Lamentiri

UNITS

Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)

Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)

Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)

Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)

Dryads x 20 (240)

Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)

Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)

BATTALIONS

Dreadwood Wargrove (100)

Outcasts (40)

1960

I'm quite pleased that you get solid battleline (20 Dryads) despite the Spite Tax.

This is probably obvious, but one thing you can definitely still use Sneak Attack for would be moving the two units of Tree Revenants to a board edge (the back board edge) at the start of battleround 1 (this is the window when you roll the initiative so it's before the hero phase of the first turn). They can then move and charge in your first turn as normal.

Like Aaron above - I think 1960 is a good number as a lot of people come in at 1980 or 2000 and I'm improving my remembering triumphs skills. I remembered reroll saves in one game and it made a difference.

Dreadwood Bowline

What does disappoint me is that I'm struggling to get an army based on the above battalion which features a lot of bow Kurnoth Hunters (because of the Spite Tax) without completely compromising the list for 3 places of Power and also wasting the artefacts. This would take advantage of the Hidden Attackers rule - give the gunline first turn, watch them not shoot anything as they are too far away, then shoot off all their artillery crew in your turn one, then hopefully get the double turn and smash face. 

Thoughts anyone?