Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[MidasKiss]

Had the same queery and conclusion about the treelord ancient not being permitted. They might have intended it to be given the Gnarlroot ancient, but RAW I don't think we can.

Re: the Gnarlroot, I definitely agree. I've been forcing myself to write lists for every battalion, and also for no battalions just to see what I would do. The deep strike is awesome, and more in favour of free spirits for me atm.

Seeing that free move for destruction has got my pining for my own flexibility. Apart from the obvious, increasing the effective range of Hunters with bows to 40", and tentatively allowing the deep strike (I would love a FAQ on the move as in the hero phase rules) are worth the extra points for Durthu.

Been thinking a lot about the discussions in the podcast about Sylvaneth and their weakness to double turns, and hearing a bunch of my friends designing their lists around punishing people in the double turn. I think this is very prohibitive for the Gnarlroot list, like you said you can't heal or bring back models if the units get wiped out.

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[Forestreveries]

Tonight I'm trying 60 Winterleaf Dryads (30-10-10-10) with Sisters of the Thorn... Vs Chaos.

It's Take and Hold, so best possible situation for me. I'll let you know what I kill with the 30 uber buffed Dryads.


So far they've tanked 40 Plague Monks (which are all now dead) a Plague Furnace (which has taken 5) and a Great Unclean One.

I still have 16 Dryads left of the unit of 30, the 3x 10's are untouched (Turn 3) [emoji1303]

Aaron


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[Nico]

You played Sisters of the Thorn against negligible rend Pestilens - LOL! People will be wielding the nerf bat soon....

[Forestreveries]

You played Sisters of the Thorn against negligible rend Pestilens - LOL! People will be wielding the nerf bat soon....

Ha yeah! Well it's joint daemons and Pestliens.

GUO and Plague Furnace down!

8 Dryads left still from original unit of 30 aha.

Also the plague monks piling in and attacking again... Only to take more mortal wounds and piling in with more and so on...

[Nico]

Plus you've got the across the board reroll 1s for the whole army - LOL!

[Forestreveries]

Plus you've got the across the board reroll 1s for the whole army - LOL!

Yeah and exploding 6's on all the Dryads. Was actually pretty effective!

Could see this being a pretty hard Chaos counter in a 2 list format. The Winterleaf formation performed really well.

Was definitely multiplied by scenario and opponent in this instance but could see it being competitive.

Ended up getting a minor victory as neither of us could chew through enough infantry (he had 30 plaguebearers sat on his objective in cover with +1 save from Epidemius) I only lost 3 Kurnoth Hunters points wise but killed Furnace, Sould Grinder, GUO and 40 Plague Monks

Here's the list for anyone who was wondering;

Was a good fun game (for me [emoji12])!

Aaron

[Mirage8112]

Ok boys and girls. 

I sat down today and decided to put my money where my mouth was. 

If you are playing competitive event, you will no doubt be expected to face a Sylvaneth player. Wha I've come up with here is a basic template list that I would be tempted have a sideboard. It's not complete (clocking in at 1780 pts) but that's on purpose. What I'll present here can be modified by adding in more units or growing unit sizes above what's outlined. 

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
Branchwych (100)
Spellweaver on Purebred Steed (120)
Battlemage (100)
Auric Runeson (80)
- General
- Wyrmslayer Javelins & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
- Trait: Strategic Genius
- Artefact: Talisman of Blinding Light

Units
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Tree Kin x 6 (200)
Glade Guard x 20 (240) (battleline)
Glade Guard x 20 (240) (battleline)
Vulkite Berzerkers x 10 (160) (battleline)
- Handaxe & Slingshield
Gryph-Hound x 1 (40)

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)
Household (20)

Total: 1780/2000


This is your basic "anti-gnarlroot" list. (yes I realize the irony of using a gnarlroot list defeat a ganrlroot list, but it's for good reason.) 

Interestingly enough, the key to list is the Treekin. Being Sylvaneth, they can move through Wyldwoods without fear of deadly terrain, likewise if there's a bunch of spell casting going on (and there will be) roused to wrath doesn't effect them. A unit of 6 has 24 wounds. Between the battlewizard (jade) healing d3 wounds and granting them a 6+ ward , the treekin specific healing spell from their warscroll healing D3 wounds, verdurous harmony from the battalion restoring lost models, they can be healed twice per turn and recover 1 model per turn. Between those three spells, a 3+ in cover (2+ with mystic shield) they are very very tanky. Add to that the instant dispel from the spellsinger on a steed theya re well equipped to wade into a 20 man strong dryad bunker, and will pretty reliably chew through 10 dryads in a heartbeat. (also rerolling 1's within 18" of a SYLVANETH hero. Which they should be.)

Even though the treekin, wytch and TMA can't start in the hidden enclaves (Sylvaneth allegiance specific, and this would fall under a general ORDER alliance) They'll be just fine sitting in that Wildwood if your cheeky enough to try and put it in the deployment zone. Also, while navigate realm roots is an allegiance ability, the TMA and Revenants can still teleport between wyldwoods as it's part of their war scroll. (The TMA can also call wyldwoods onto the table on a 4+ if you want). Which means they still have nearly as much mobility as a pure Sylvaneth army.

The two units of glade guard (2 battleline units) put out 10 wounds between them per turn, and the spellsinger is able to return d3 slain units should they are casualties, and if somebody wants to be sneaky by teleporting close by, the Gryph hound will make them think twice. Not to mention that the arcane bodkin ability is super nasty; granting -3 rend. That means if something is dumb enough to try to teleport within 10"  each unit can put out 20 -3 rend shots. if your hunters are in units of 3, that's 60% of that unit gone. 

But even still, there also the 10 vulkite berserkers meant to guard them, getting rerolls of 1 to hit, and rerolling wounds against models with a wounds characteristic of 3+ (hi hunters!) . Depending on how you equip them they have a 4+, 5++. Or a 5+, 5++ rerolling missed hits (in addition to wounds), OR, 5+, 5++ and doing mortal wounds on the charge (on a roll of 6+). 

In addition, thanks to the ORDER command trait "strategic genius", the runeson can cast inspiring presence in addition to his normal common, or cast inspiring presence twice per turn (what battelshock?). He's also a brutal monster killer, doing D3+2 damage to any monster unlucky enough to be wounded by the Wyrmslayer javelin (plus, it's a ranged attack, so there's no need to get close.)

Also, as I said above, you still have 220 pts to play with. Ideas I've tossed around:

+10 More Vulkites for a 4++.
3 Gyrobombers: flying over combats (flyers will ignore wyldwoods) and each doing D3 mortal wounds (on a 4+) in addition to 12 -1 rend shooting attacks. while units are stuck in combat.
10 Executioners: 20 attacks. 2 mortal wounds on a roll of 6. (roughly 6 mortal wounds per combat round)
5 Retributors: 2 star soul maces plus lightning hammers.
Flame cannon: 24" flame burst doing d3 mortal wounds, and an additional d3 on a roll of 4+. (you could also sacrifice 10 glade guard for a cogsmith, and increase those to D6 mortal wounds)  
Auric runemaster: this is funny. Use the volcano ability to force sylvaneth units to test for deadly terrain. and +1 attack for the vulkites against a specific enemy unit.

There's a lot of leeway in this list to do some interesting things. It fights just as well in or out of the forest as half the units are sylvaneth and 1/4 are shooting. It has better magic defense than straight up gnarlroot, (and in this case the spellsinger isn't wasted since there are two units with the WANDERER keyword.) It has the potential for ranged mortal wound generation, (and the -3 rend from the archers might as well be mortal wound generation). 

It's not perfect (yet). But as I said this is the type of thing I would be afraid of if running a pure Gnarlroot. 

[Mirage8112]

P.S. With a little green stuff Citadel woods make banging treekin models.

3-4 out of a box if you're handy.




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[Nico]

I made a decent list with Treekin, but the model availability is worse than expected (unless you just use Kurnoth Hunter models).

They are excellent punch for their cost, combine well with Gnarlroot to bring models back.

I've been straining to get a double Gnarlroot/Winterleaf formation into a list such that it will buff Durthu with both Hand of Glory and the best I've gotten to is 2020 points - infuriating.

I think this is a good alternative to your list above with the Sisters. you sacrifice pew pew but get Durthu action instead - he's trolling with 2+ rerollable, mortal wounds on 5+ in melee. 

Leaders
Spirit of Durthu (400)
- General
- Trait: Gnarled Warrior 
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour 
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour 
Branchwraith (100)
Branchwych (100)

Units
Dryads x 20 (240)
Dryads x 20 (240)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Sisters of the Thorn x 5 (220)

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Winterleaf Wargrove (100)
Forest Folk (60)

Total: 2000/2000
 

 

[Nico]

Ok now for something completely different.

Leaders
Drycha Hamadreth (280) (Squirmlings)
Branchwych (100)
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Trait: Gnarled Warrior 
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour 

Units
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Dryads x 20 (240)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Sisters of the Thorn x 5 (220)

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)
Household (20)
Dreadwood Wargrove (100)
Outcasts (40)

Total: 2000/2000

So unlike many Sylvaneth lists, this army seeks to take the first turn.

You get 1-3 bonus abilities from the Dreadwood formation. The only one which really matters is Ambush which you would use on Drycha. 

You would redeploy her 18 inches away from the Sisters of the Thorn and the Branchwych and 6 inches away from the largest enemy block.

The second unit of Tree Revenants, the ones that aren't in the Gnarlroot formation, can use one of the 3 free moves (Sneak Attack) to teleport to a board edge before their turn begins if you get 2 abilities. They can then walk and charge easily into an artillery crew or the like.

You then take the first turn. The Branchwych summons a Wood near Drycha using Verdant Blessing and then the Ancient uses Awakening of the Wood on it for D3 mortal wounds (the wood can be 1 inch from the enemy and Awakening hits units that are 3 inches from the wood).

Drycha casts Primal Terror, which will be in range of at least one unit.

The Sisters cast Shield of Thorns on Drycha 

The Ancient summons another wood using his passive ability.

The Branchwych casts mystic shield on Drycha. In the movement phase Drycha moves to 3 inches away from the big block. In the shooting phase 2/3 of the big block dies if they have 1 wound each. Happy days. No inspiring presence, no Crown of Conquest abuse - dead block.

Drycha then charges something with bad or low rend. Between her attacks and Shield of Thorns, stuff dies.

The 20 Dryads will potentially come in for some combat near a wood also. The Sisters reposition to ensure they can still buff Drycha.

One Drycha dies, you switch to using the Ancient as the Shield of Thorns target.

 

 

[Alexxk]

20 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

P.S. With a little green stuff Citadel woods make banging treekin models.

3-4 out of a box if you're handy.




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Hi!

Awesome job! Can you maybe make some more pictures from different angles? I was looking for a way to build some treekin and your work is so awesome that i want to try this aswell

You only used the extra branches right? Not one of the 3 "real" trees?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Nico]

Having played against @Bowlzee yesterday with his Sylvaneth, I've had to completely re-evaluate the take the first turn/second turn decision - particularly as regards my initial list which was essentially Wyldwood spam plus loads of level 2 Wizards. There was a moderate amount of terrain on the table. Craig had his natural wood linking the deployment zones. Craig failed to summon 2 woods in his turn. We both moved forward. Craig won the initiative - by that time there was already so little space to deploy new Wyldwoods that Craig was really hampered. The value of 20 Dryads in a Wood (3+ saves and -1 to hit) was also striking - as well as their cheeky 2 inch range.  

[Lanoss]

Has anyone found any success in their games without the use of wyldwoods? As in, no wyldwoods on the board at all or even just the default one at the start?


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[Forestreveries]

Has anyone found any success in their games without the use of wyldwoods? As in, no wyldwoods on the board at all or even just the default one at the start?


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One of my games I had a Skyborne Slayers formation drop in front of my deployment zone and charge me before I'd had a turn, and the one wood is placed had been over a Take and Hold objective in one of the deployment zones, and he took that side.

I was playing with Alarielle, Durthu, Drycha, and Kurnoth Hunters with Greatbows.

His formation didn't kill anything on the charge (tho Durthu was heavily wounded) Alarielle them healed him back up to full, and between them they killed everything in the formation, then ran across the table to help out Drycha who was busy the with 4(!) units of Judicators over there.

I did have to drop a wood in my deployment zone to get my Dryads out but if I hadn't then they could've already been stood there.

That's the only game I've played where they haven't been key to my gameplay.

Why would you not want to take any?

If you wanted to play a predominantly Sylvaneth army with Order allegiance perhaps, I can see that you'd want a Quicksilver Potion on Durthu for example, but I think even wyldwoods aside the Deepwood Spell lore and Sylvaneth Artefacts are very strong resources to pass up if that was he case.

What's your thinking?

Aaron


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[Lanoss]

Hi Aaron
Thanks for the great response! I of course want to field them. Just seeing how the army fares with one or none of the Wyldwoods


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[Nico]

If the Order Allegiance pack wasn't hands down the worst of the four - by miles - then it might be worth sacrificing the allegiance to bring in loads of wizards.

[Forestreveries]

If the Order Allegiance pack wasn't hands down the worst of the four - by miles - then it might be worth sacrificing the allegiance to bring in loads of wizards.

Ha yeah I don't disagree.

Aaron


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[Chris Tomlin]

Hey,

Just thought I'd drop in and say thanks to any of you Tree-nerds who watched mine and @Forestreveries game last Friday. It was a lot of fun to record and we are aware of the issues so will do better next time.

It was good to have such a tight game against Sylvaneth (for a change ) and hopefully we depicted a solid example of a game played competitively whilst still being fun and good natured. It was no different to any tournament game I've played tbh.

On ‎09‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:02 AM, Forestreveries said:

think I did show Chris that Sylvaneth are not absolutely useless against Ironjaws, (though they and Destruction in general are a tough matchup). I actually dominated a large part of the game but made some silly mistakes which cost me a lot of objective points and meant Chris snatched the win from me. Shame as it would've been great to end chris' Sylvaneth crushing streak!

Sure I'll get you next time@Chris Tomlin ! 

Yup, I'd agree with all of that for sure, with the exception of you getting me next time, obviously. I think you guys have been having some solid chats in here which seem to be beneficial to both Treelords and Saplings alike!  

On ‎09‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:06 AM, Nico said:

Is there a way to watch the video now. Could you please link to it? Periscope?

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 0:39 AM, MidasKiss said:

Any chance of getting that footage saved and uploaded somewhere?

The Periscope feed is still live, I thought it expired after 24 hours but it doesn't seem to be the case. You can find the wrap up vid as a pinned tweet on my Twitter profile @the_black_sun

In future I may look into streaming them some other way, it's all new territory at the moment.

Keep up the good work in here, if you keep at it perhaps one of you will eventually be able to overcome the might of the Da Black Sunz Ironjawz!!  

Megaboss Chris x

 

[Bowlzee]

6 hours ago, Lanoss said:

Hi Aaron
Thanks for the great response! I of course want to field them. Just seeing how the army fares with one or none of the Wyldwoods


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I've played at a tournament where I only had 2 bases painted. In all games, I would have fared much better if I were able to get more woods down. 

You also need to get them down early, because the board quickly fills up.

I'm thinking i need to place the initial wood down with 3 bases during the setup phase, then follow it up with 2 woods with 2 bases each to get a good coverage.

It does very much depend on the table scenery. The last game I played at Honour & Glory, I barely had room to place 2 bases down.

[Mirage8112]

Major threat to the Gnarlroot just came up for pre-order:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Lord-Veritant


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[Forestreveries]

Major threat to the Gnarlroot just came up for pre-order:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Lord-Veritant


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Ha! Really? I'm surprised that you would think that.

I hardly think "major threat" is appropriate.

He's no better than most wizards at dealing with Gnarlroot IMO.

Sure you don't have the opportunity to unbind his d3 wounds like you would an Arcane Bolt, but 7" range is essentially a turn or two of him failing to cast or being unbound with 18" range.

Sure he has combat punch and potential to teleport too... but if you were to look at it this way:
If he charges a Branchwych/wraith it's likely dead, regardless of the d3 wounds.
If he charges a Treelord Ancient it's not dead, regardless of the d3 wounds.
No different to most existing Stormcast heroes in that respect.

The Stormcast players in my local area aren't blown away by him. Think there are plenty of ways to dish out d3 mortal wounds without it being restricted to wizards only.
All he's really offering is a single unbind ability in SCE. Which is fair enough.

Anybody else have any thoughts?

Aaron



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[Nico]

Quote

All he's really offering is a single unbind ability in SCE. Which is fair enough. 

It's an infinite unbind - like the Mighty Lord of Khorne (FAQs), so definitely useful against Gnarlroot which is all about lots of spell attempts from wizards without buffs.

[MidasKiss]

Ha! Really? I'm surprised that you would think that.

I hardly think "major threat" is appropriate.

He's no better than most wizards at dealing with Gnarlroot IMO.

Sure you don't have the opportunity to unbind his d3 wounds like you would an Arcane Bolt, but 7" range is essentially a turn or two of him failing to cast or being unbound with 18" range.

Sure he has combat punch and potential to teleport too... but if you were to look at it this way:
If he charges a Branchwych/wraith it's likely dead, regardless of the d3 wounds.
If he charges a Treelord Ancient it's not dead, regardless of the d3 wounds.
No different to most existing Stormcast heroes in that respect.

The Stormcast players in my local area aren't blown away by him. Think there are plenty of ways to dish out d3 mortal wounds without it being restricted to wizards only.
All he's really offering is a single unbind ability in SCE. Which is fair enough.

Anybody else have any thoughts?

Aaron



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I agree. I don't find my opponent running out of dispells that often really. Normally it's more about them being in range or not which will be the same now. I guess it might be a little annoying if they can run this guy right up into your face and dispell a few things but he isn't going to be in range for your early wood summons.
Also, Sylvaneth have a bunch of ways to increase their casting value so it might just mean using the priority spells on the wizards with that item or crown of thorns, or that are out of range, etc.

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[Aezeal]

I'm 2/3 through this topic and really need to ask my questions now before I forget them so excuse me if things have been answered in the remaining pages I've yet to read.

1. If you decide to use the Balewind vortex (which is probably not going to be appreciated, at least not in my meta): how would you react If you opponent said you'd have to double the range (with vortex) first before adding the +6 " ? (Personally I'd say this isn't unreasonable)

2. Everyone is mentioning Flitterfuries but doing lots of damage with that is kinda dependant on getting in range of a lot of units of the enemy (and you usually can't teleport in the middle of the army) and then doing 1/2 mortal wounds on each unit when the squirmlings from an undamaged Drycha can really hurt high model count (1/2 wound) units (and the triggering battle shock too for more damage)

3. Has anyone got a viable Gnarlwood list with Alarielle in 2000 points?

4. As a general strategy: does placing a 3 base wild wood (going more than 3 seems to be pushing it) in the middle before picking sides seem the best idea generally. (then dropping the acorn in your own side preferably over an objective?

 

[Aezeal]

5. Where is the rule that you can drop a battalion as a single drop. I know it must be true since it's mentioned a lot.. but where is the rule?