AoS 2 - Flesh-eater Courts Discussion

[XReN]

And I know that GWs only asked about points changes, but you can't fix everything by only points changes

[Glaurung]

Yeah, but buffs do exist and skeletons are better than ghouls in everything bar movement.
I mean, they need to drop them or nerf witches and skeletons a bit...

[XReN]

51 minutes ago, Glaurung said:

Yeah, but buffs do exist and skeletons are better than ghouls in everything bar movement.
I mean, they need to drop them or nerf witches and skeletons a bit...

Damn, did some math, was kind of fast judging ghouls/skeletons question. Now I agree that ghouls are inferior to skellies, my point was coming from experience I've had playing FEC and they felt like very balanced army to me. And I'd also argee that they should have at least same price as skeletons.

Considering buffs, I'd like to approach previously mentioned by @TheWilddog battle trait - Feedeing Frenzy. It should be made into command ability, maybe conditional, but still a command ability, so we could activate it at will.

[Glaurung]

As promised, here are my thoughts on our army and how I would like to see them adjusted.

I really love the idea of game design, so this would be a perfect test to see whether I can balance things or just make them broken. These are just my opinions and I want to share them with you guys. These are not to be sent to GW or anything else.

 

So, for units. I think when balancing something, one should compare it to what already exists and at the same time looking at what bonus/buffs/interactions the faction can offer to that unit.

Ghouls: in faction they are ok, however if you compare them to the newer battlelines, you can see that something is not right. They cost the same as witches and more than skeltons and chainrasp. Chainrasp have one less attack, but they fly, are ethereal and reroll 1s to wound. And 40 of them cost so much less than 40 ghouls. As already stated, we can’t really compare to broken units as witches or skellies (with broken I mean too efficient per se and with buffs in mind), but I think 40 ghouls should cost just a little more than chainrasp.

horrors: I like them, they are completely fine IMO 

flayers: here we are. I like them, a lot, but I think they are really not ok. What are they supposed to do? Harrass? Their big bases prevent them to move as they want. Their scream is not so good in this edition, where everything has Ld7 or more. I would like to see them drop in points or get reworked. Maybe 3+ to hit, maybe give their scream a buff (like 2D6 and if higher than Ld deal 1/D3 mortal wounds).  If they were like this, IMO they could cost more than 160 and I would try to use or summon them.

Ghoul kings are good and fairly pointed I think.

Courtiers are ok. As stated, I would like a rework on the ghast courtier or a 20 points drop. 

Monsters: I don’t know, they should cost less than 300, as you guys already said. There is almost no reason to bring them, mounted Kings are so much better and thanks to summoning they cost almost as much as them...

Ok, now for the fun part: allegiance abilities.

Feeding frenzy is not really good. However, it’s so thematic, so I would rework a little what it does. 

“When a FEC unit kills an enemy one in the combat phase, roll a dice. On a 6, they can pile in and attack again, make a normal move towards the nearer enemy unit or a charge move. If the destroyed unit had more than X models, add 1 to this roll.”

This way the allegiance becomes strong and stays thematic, as when something is killed, Ghouls go mad. 

Another way to balance it would be to apply the effects of the original ability to other FEC units on the field, having 1/6 chance to pile in and make additional attacks.

too broken this way? What do you think?

 

Now, on delusions. Crusading army is very good compared to the others, so some balancing should be done. 

One thing that I would personally like is a mechanic that makes enemy unit ho mad and do strange things. 

For example, if they are near a FEC unit in the hero phase, you make a roll and apply some effects.

I don’t know what, maybe hit themselves. This is very thematic, as we usually read about this spreading madness and people turning savage.

Again, what do you think?

Summoning: it’s strong, it’s great. But again, one use only. Would it be broken if it could be used every turn, but only one king can do it? And then, Majestic horror could let you use it an additional time. This way you get constant reinforcements, but not everything at the same time. I woul like the ability to add them to another existing unit within 6” of the board, but maybe that could be really broken.

 

Last: batallions, traits and relics.

Batallions, bar ghoul patrol, seem not worth their cost, as usually they don’t give game changing abilities.

Traits: I am not a fan of them, majestic horror is so much better than anything else. I would like the “Savage” trait to maybe buff the roll for feeding frenzy for whole army or units wholly withing X”. Also, The “Delusional” trait could modify the roll for the madness your enemy falls into.

Relics: GW’s choice of balance on every battletome is clear. Some of them are good, some are useless. I am not a fan of ours, as many are a “one use only” that almost never gets used. Personally, I would find them more attractive and fun to play If they had a constant ability, other than the one use only.

for example: che chalice could just heal 1 wound per turn and d6 when used. After that, it does not give the 1 heal anymore. The gargant heart could let the user re-roll 1s to hit or wound and every dice when used. Maybe broken, but could it be shareble with a mount like a TG or a ZD?

 

so guys, what do you think? Can you give me some advice on this? Be propositive, these are only ideas I want to share. I’m not saying “they should just do as I want”.

Keep up with suggestions on points and flood the Facebook post like a real Court would do!

[XReN]

Good suggestions on feeding frenzy, any of two would make sence, buff it, but won't make it OP
Ahhh... Delusions...
Crusading Army is so good because it fits the winning the objective game theme, giving our lotsa lads lotsa speed.

Crusading - obviously amazing. running and charging is what you supposed to do EVERY turn when playing FEC.
Should not be changed though
Royal Hunt - next good one, basicly you can play it for fun or with Completly Delusional, kicking it in when prepairing to stuck in with giant food trucks also called mosters.
Would keep it like that, maybe enchance feeding frenzy roll after killing monster as part of delusion effect
Feast Day - just no
I think returning D6/D3 models to ghouls or horros/flayers respectively, and healing monsters (may be not kings) as warriors feast upon dead and more joining in or giving enemy units that witnessed (have been withtin N" of models that have been killed by latest activation) the Feast stackable permament bravery penalty (up to -3)
A Matter of Honor - half and more of heroes that your opponent would like to get in combat are monsters,  if you manage to get to backline heroes it could mean two things - they are about to die from flank Pennant+Summon ambush, or their army lies dismembered by your's so in both cases does not matter, go for Royal Hunt (also half of our units already have hit rerolls)
I'd give it 6" pile in towards enemy heroes, but our heroes outside of mounted kings are not so great fighters, and on really huge bases, so that won't see much use, so something like forbid enemy heroes from retriting + giving our heroes an ability to swing in the combat phase if they were killed before.
The Tournament - I like this one, will test sometime soon, for me it's smtg that you want with elite army when you get courtier as a general to fit some horrors/flayers in battleline, with couple mounted kings to engage the enemy first, which they might do without crusading due to their speed.
Throw in temporary for killing a unit, permament for killing a hero +1 attack and it will work
Defenders - seriously? If we had ANY unit outside of hero choices with 4+ that could have been looked at, but now it really does not fit
Should be changed to auto-bravery near the general or something

That'll do for now

[TheBluMnM]

Hey TGA,

Just had my first learning match with my FEC, and after that I built this 2000pt list.  I'm not looking to be highly competitive, but I got stomped by a Free Peoples Castle, so I'd like to come back with a vengeance. How does this list look? The idea is to hopefully stomp face with all the big guys and secure a turn 1 charge with the re-rollable +5 charge (cogs and pendant).

Does this list give me a fighting chance? Thanks.

EDIT: Replaced the list attachment with just a Copy/Paste:

Allegiance: Flesh Eater Courts
- Delusion: Crusading Army

Leaders
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)
- Artefact: The Grim Garland 
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)
Varghulf Courtier (160)
Crypt Haunter Courtier (140)
- General
- Trait: Dark Wizardry 
- Artefact: The Flayed Pennant 

Battleline
6 x Crypt Horrors (320)
3 x Crypt Horrors (160)
20 x Crypt Ghouls (200)

Battalions
Abattoir (130)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

Edited November 15, 2018 by TheBluMnM
attachment

[XReN]

@TheBluMnM
The list looks good, but after a couple of games your freeguild opponent will figure out how to build an army to counter yours (via freeguild battalion) and how to deploy to give you only chaff and a good load of lead'n'steel on your initial charge from great companies battle trait.
Still, this is all good units to expand with, so you are not losing anything

Edited November 16, 2018 by XReN

[Heroflegend21]

Does anyone know when you take Arkhan the black as an ally does he get spells from the lore of the dead? And if so is it affected by the locus of Shyish ability on a 9+? 

[Honk]

38 minutes ago, Heroflegend21 said:

Does anyone know

Not betting my firstborn, but

no, he doesn’t get any LoN specific abilities „carried over“ since he is not in a LoN army.

nor anything else that is FEC specific or special... like feeding frenzy or if I remember correctly deathless courtiers (minions). 

[Graywater]

38 minutes ago, Honk said:

Not betting my firstborn, but

no, he doesn’t get any LoN specific abilities „carried over“ since he is not in a LoN army.

nor anything else that is FEC specific or special... like feeding frenzy or if I remember correctly deathless courtiers (minions). 

You're correct. Access to the lores is an allegiance ability. Since Arkhan is being taken as an ally, he does not gain the allegiance abilities of his natural faction or the one hes allied to. So you wouldn't get deathless minions for him either. 

[Heroflegend21]

When looking at the monster mash list which GK would you pick as the general? The one on ZD or one on TG? And why?

[Graywater]

26 minutes ago, Heroflegend21 said:

When looking at the monster mash list which GK would you pick as the general? The one on ZD or one on TG? And why?

You take the king on terrorgheist as general so you can give him the majestic horror trait and summon 2 units of horrors or flayers. You'll get more return on investment with 2 horror units over the 2 courtiers you would have if you were to have given majestic horror to the king on dragon. The units you summon are minimal sizes of 3, so less of a chance of them to survive a combat than if you had larger sized squads. And if the squad is dead, there isnt any way for the courtiers to respawn models. If you had a squad of 6, the courtiers would be more tempting, but monster mash lists summon their horrors/flayers instead of bringing them in the list, so you'll only ever have minimum sizes. 

[Honk]

14 hours ago, Heroflegend21 said:

which GK would you pick as the general?

As above, might be more bang for your bucks getting max horrors instead of double varghulfs. 

But if you need some regen for your ghouls... then suddenly it depends a bit more on your actual list

[XReN]

So, I have a pretty interesting question: how do we beat almost 400 wounds bonesplitters army?

[Honk]

1 hour ago, XReN said:

how do we beat almost 400 wounds bonesplitters army?

With cunning...

not sure, against a kunnin' rukk we fought briefly in the shade, before my army had the hedgehog look and went home again. But that was ghb17

I dare say a bunch of horrors from the backline into the supporting heroes and then there is the grind...

also abattoir with the mortal wounds in range could be interesting. As usual and maybe even more than usual, protecting the regeneration heros should be key. With the low save, they should be vulnerable to horrors but the unit size must be 6+ to survive. Something like this:

[XReN]

3 hours ago, Honk said:

With cunning...

not sure, against a kunnin' rukk we fought briefly in the shade, before my army had the hedgehog look and went home again. But that was ghb17

I dare say a bunch of horrors from the backline into the supporting heroes and then there is the grind...

also abattoir with the mortal wounds in range could be interesting. As usual and maybe even more than usual, protecting the regeneration heros should be key. With the low save, they should be vulnerable to horrors but the unit size must be 6+ to survive. Something like this:

 

There are a few points I didn't have the time to mention
It's not kunning rukk, there is no shooting at all
There is no option to backline charge since there are 150 boys in guys deployment (including boarboys) (but we played 2250, so for standart 2000 it will be less, but hardly much different)
The main problem was that I couldn't stop him casting fly+double move spell (and in that particular game it was on double 6s near arcane terrain, so it's 14 to unbind and triple the move, so even my allied Arkhan could not stop it)

Overall, I like your list a lot, since horrors performed very good, ripping orks left and right and when the game was over by turn 3 we decided that I would kill total of 2 full units of boys and 2 full units of boars, for tiebreaker purposes.

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by XReN

[XReN]

I've been also thinking about slapping betrayer's crown on a mounted GK (it's roll as many dice as in opponent's unit, 5+ is MW) and it's at the start of combat phase.

[Honk]

2 hours ago, XReN said:

There is no option to backline charge since there are 150 boys in guys deployment

Maybe on turn 3 the homebase steal...but 10 ghouls from the gk  could get that done too.

but if he is just brute-forcing it with bodies, maybe a dedicated horror list. I don’t think terrorgheist will cause enough damage to have a nice impact, even on a six, only 3 models down and the bravery buff of being 30+ will keep them pretty safe.

so if one drops the gkotg for another varghulf/gk  and 6 horrors, making a horror courtier general. Maybe with dark wizardry, but majestic horror (2x10 ghouls) could be even better.

heavy elite face punch regen list, 

haunter (dark M), 2xvarghulf, 2x king 

3x6 horror, 10 ghouls, 

abbatoir, cogs

1990... put that in your pipe and smoke it!!! Maybe 2x9 horror

for every model within 3“ a MWs on a 6...then black hunger and rerolling failed hits... 18d6 regen about 6 models...

the 10 ghouls stay home, 4x10 can be summoned from the edges

he wants to brawl...‘ere we go

Edited November 26, 2018 by Honk

[XReN]

For some battleplans that could be great, I'll definetly try it at some point (before that I need 6 more horrors, but for change I can take 40 man strong ghouls unit in abbatoir)

 

[Honk]

The ghoul grind is of course also viable... but I like the gk synergy with horrors and also like yelling „gravestone to the face“ upon rolling a 6...

XD

3x40 ghouls, gkotg (MH), gk, varghulf, 2xcourtier, cogs... 2k on the spot 

maybe even 4 courtiers no varghulf... regen 20g/turn, do your worst

[XReN]

5 minutes ago, Honk said:

gk synergy with horrors and also like yelling „gravestone to the face“ upon rolling a 6...

Same
It was great slapping Alariel to death with gravestone ones
Also even 3 horrors with Feeding Frenzy (spell) and, obviously, ghoul king buff hit like a truck

Edited November 26, 2018 by XReN

[Diablo]

Helas Guys, Me again  ;D

I have tomorrow my first game against the Ironjawz , what do you say to my army list and tactics :

 

Allegiance: Flesh Eater Courts

LEADERS

Abhorrant Ghoul King (140)

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)

- General

- Command Trait : Magestic Horror

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon (440)

Varghulf Courtier (160)

UNITS

10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)

10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)

10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)

TOTAL: 1440/1500 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1

 

Loyalty abilities:
Artifact: Grimmer Kranz ( The Grim Garland ?)
Delusion: Royal hunting party
General Property: Majestic Terror

Tactics:
-Place as far back as possible and stop the first round and Summon Flayers and Ghouls.
-As soon as possible kill Maw-Krusha with Terrorgheist and Zombie Dragon with the support of Royal hunting party Delusion.
-With the Flayers' ranged weapon shoot on Shaman, Brutes and Ardboys, they only have 6 (or -2: 4 by the artifact) Bravery.
-Grim Garland give an Abhorrant Ghoul King and put it close to the orcs.

-Reinforce Ghoul King Aborrant on Terrorgheist with all three spells (Food Greed, Unholy Life Force, Black Starvation).

Kill priorities:
1.Megaboss on Maw-Krusha
2.Megaboss, Gore Gruntas
3.Brutes, Shaman, Warchanter
4.Ardboys

What do you think ? Do I have a chance with the tactics or should I play better with the horror? And give my Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist the Artefact: Blood River Chalice for extra healing ?

My complete army inventory is:

Flesh Eater Courts (4400 P.):

2x Abhorrant Ghoul King (on foot)
1x Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist
1x Abhorrant Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon
1x Terrorgheist
1x Zombie Dragon
120x Crypt Ghouls
5x Crypt Ghouls Courtier
12x Crypt Horrors
6x Crypt Flayers
1x Varghulf Courtier

Edited November 28, 2018 by Diablo

[Graywater]

I think you have the right idea with attacking the bravery of the ironjawz, and the combo of grim Garland and flayers is a nice tactic to do this.

The varghulf is a tough call for me though. Your units that it would be able to reinforce are all minimum sizes, and easy for an ironjawz army to delete. Varghulf does much better with larger units to support. Plus, you can summon a courtier through your dragon, so it seems a bit redundant. However, dropping it doesn't give you much better options, so maybe it just has to stay. Also, i personally have a hard time taking anything over the crusading army delusion. Rerolling charges has so much utility over the other more focused delusion effects. Maw krushas can be scary, but your monsters should do alright at killing him without the delusion. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Graywater

[Diablo]

Thank you for your answer.

True, with the Zombie Dragon can I summon a Courtier i completely forgot that ;D

Then I make a 30 Ghoul Block and summon the Varghulf Courtier, i like the Varghulf Courtier  and do not want to do without him, above all, he can revive the flayers and ghouls, and his damage is also very good against 10-40 blocks.

 

[Graywater]

Sure, with a block of 30 ghouls, he'll be safe to get something done. My concern was with every unit being minimum size, theres a good chance the ironjawz player could destroy the unit before you have a chance to revive. With a bigger unit, you won't have that concern. Ideally, you'll be reviving flayers, but the varghulf can still do something even if the flayers all die.