Let's chat Stormcast Eternals

[Freejack02]

11 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Phoenixes are not very good though. They can be hard to kill but they do virtually no damage and all the defensive support gets tied into 1-2 units so you're free to eliminate the rest of the army behind them.

I'm always shocked to find out people are struggling to deal with those mixed order lists.

They do fine damage for their cost -  8.90 at rend -1 (at full health). I agree they they are defensive focused, but they are no slouches considering they are virtually unkillable. 

If I make the same comparison to the Celestant Prime, even considering a turn to charge up, the Phoenix remains competetive offensively:  5.94 expected wounds vs 6.67 (both against a 4+ save). While that is not counting the Prime's shooting attack or other abilities, considering how absurdly better the Phoenix is on defense it's a wonder anyone attempts to use the Prime at all. 

[TheWilddog]

Man I am getting such a Grey Knights vibe from these guys.  Pretty sure I am going to have to paint mine up in chrome.

[generalchaos34]

Before we get tied up in points cost let us not forget that magic itself is getting quite the overhaul, so there may be major changes in the works. This new wizard could be on par with others or even better considering how much sturdier the SCE statline is compared to other casters. Plus we now have a native non-allied source of Mystic Shield (if it even works like it used to, my bet is it ignores rend or something)

[newsun]

I often run a phoenix and while it's good I'm fairly sure I get more value out of less points in skinks

[Freejack02]

2 hours ago, newsun said:

I often run a phoenix and while it's good I'm fairly sure I get more value out of less points in skinks

Agreed, skink blocks seem very, very efficient for what they cost. 

[DanielFM]

9 hours ago, ledha said:

I totally see the Starsoul Mace working like the Lunar Blade of the pallador prime, making D3 mortal wound on a 2+, without being a dice roll.

The new caster is very good, it would be stupid to make it less than 110/120 pts

Sounds pretty likely. Yet, against 4+ save a Starsoul maces would do 1,66 mortal wounds and a Lightning Hammer 1,54 total wounds. The upgrade would be almost the same as the basic weapon.

There must be other changes to Paladins or Starsoul Maces will be obsolete.

[ledha]

2 hours ago, DanielFM said:

Sounds pretty likely. Yet, against 4+ save a Starsoul maces would do 1,66 mortal wounds and a Lightning Hammer 1,54 total wounds. The upgrade would be almost the same as the basic weapon.

There must be other changes to Paladins or Starsoul Maces will be obsolete.

how ? A lightning hammer need to wound and let the opponent have a save. A starsoul mace bypass those which still make it better in every way. I don't see how a 3+/3+/-1/2 weapon would be better than a 2+ => D3 mortal wounds

[stato]

Not sure DanielFMs numbers are correct but one thing not considered in that is the amount of -1 to hit, save buffs, ignores rend* etc. that will impact Hammer and likley not the Mace (although we still dont know for sure).

* with the new starter set you will be facing Nighthaunt a LOT now ?

 

[Dragobeth]

Seeing as the Sequitors and the rest of the Sacrosanct chamber all have the flasks in their miniatures... do you think that all of them will have some type of "once per battle they broke the flask" ability? Like some kind of "im done, better take some enemies with me" or in the Sequitors case, that could be how they "channel energy to their shields or weapons where needed".

Those flasks aren't just decoration like de ropes, we saw that the Incator can use them, I think it's a good bet (and a cool mechanic too)

[DanielFM]

4 hours ago, ledha said:

how ? A lightning hammer need to wound and let the opponent have a save. A starsoul mace bypass those which still make it better in every way. I don't see how a 3+/3+/-1/2 weapon would be better than a 2+ => D3 mortal wounds

How? Really simple. 2×1/6×2=0,66 mortal wounds per LH. +2×1/2×4/6x4/6(4+save minus rend)x2=0,88 wounds. For a total of 1,54.

Starsoul mace: 5/6(2+)x2(average 1d3 roll)=1,66.

See? The numbers speak for themselves.

[stato]

18 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

How? Really simple. 2×1/6×2=0,66 mortal wounds per LH. +2×1/2×4/6x4/6(4+save minus rend)x2=0,88 wounds. For a total of 1,54.

Starsoul mace: 5/6(2+)x2(average 1d3 roll)=1,66.

See? The numbers speak for themselves.

Its quite interesting actually, it would make maces much more specific against specific threats. They are clearly still useful but against basic hordes they start to lose their advantage.

Regardless, this is still a rumour and with the new Stormcast coming it could very well just apply to their version of the Mace, and not a warscroll update/FAQ for Paladins.  We dont know yet. 

[kuroyume]

 

8 hours ago, DanielFM said:

There must be other changes to Paladins or Starsoul Maces will be obsolete.

Honestly, if both the Starsoul Mace and charger attack first changes go through they might as well discontinue paladins, because no one will be buying them

[ledha]

3 hours ago, DanielFM said:

How? Really simple. 2×1/6×2=0,66 mortal wounds per LH. +2×1/2×4/6x4/6(4+save minus rend)x2=0,88 wounds. For a total of 1,54.

Starsoul mace: 5/6(2+)x2(average 1d3 roll)=1,66.

See? The numbers speak for themselves.

ok, i'm a big moron in maths, (didn't understood the 2×1/2×4/6x4/6) but it seems at the end, the starsoul mace do better than the lightning hammer.

And the better the ennemy save is, the better the starsoul mace start to become. And it ignore any maluse to attack, or to hit, or to wound, or anything else.

It's still better in every way, because it's ultra reliable. Even if it become like the lunar blade or something. Automatic mortal wound on hit will always be better than a normal weapon, except if the normal weapon is completely busted.

Even against hordes, a decimator need to be around 7 opponents to be as good as a starsoul mace.

And if they nerf the starsoul mace, they could as well drop the Paladins in point or making them more resilient. We should wait to see the whole picture

[chord]

I agree, nerfing starsoul mace will make paladins pretty poor.  I mean even with a point reduction, they are just SOOOO slow and with ward saves on top of regular saves, etc.

 

[barjed]

Hiya people,

I am a WHFB/WH40K looking to expand into AoS. I own a selection of Stormcast models and I am looking for some good input on how to construct a 'balanced' list. It doesn't have to win tourneys but it would be nice to get a solid base to play with. I also am a slow and ofter distracted painter and a good remedy to that, for me, is to build a list and stick it for the painting purposes. I already have a unique (I think) painting scheme figured out so I am itching to paint and play with some stuff!

I currently own: Start Collecting, the old big xmas bundle (Prime, 2 Dracothian Guard - assembled them as Fulminators -, 5 Paladins - assembled them as Protectors, Knight Venator, some Liberators), Lord Celestant on Stardrake and 2 boxes of Judicators. Expansion into Vanguard (and Sacrosanct in the future) is also possible. That Aquilor sculpt is to die for

I am looking into making a 1000 pts and a 2000 pts variant. Thanks so much for any tips!

[chord]

28 minutes ago, barjed said:

Hiya people,

I am a WHFB/WH40K looking to expand into AoS. I own a selection of Stormcast models and I am looking for some good input on how to construct a 'balanced' list. It doesn't have to win tourneys but it would be nice to get a solid base to play with. I also am a slow and ofter distracted painter and a good remedy to that, for me, is to build a list and stick it for the painting purposes. I already have a unique (I think) painting scheme figured out so I am itching to paint and play with some stuff!

I currently own: Start Collecting, the old big xmas bundle (Prime, 2 Dracothian Guard - assembled them as Fulminators -, 5 Paladins - assembled them as Protectors, Knight Venator, some Liberators), Lord Celestant on Stardrake and 2 boxes of Judicators. Expansion into Vanguard (and Sacrosanct in the future) is also possible. That Aquilor sculpt is to die for

I am looking into making a 1000 pts and a 2000 pts variant. Thanks so much for any tips!

Everything will be changing with AOS 2.0 coming out next month. I'd advise painting and waiting on the list building.

[barjed]

1 hour ago, chord said:

Everything will be changing with AOS 2.0 coming out next month. I'd advise painting and waiting on the list building.

What would be a safe bet to paint? I have a test model done - a paladin but I guess something like Liberators would be a safer option? Thanks!

[DanielFM]

4 hours ago, ledha said:

ok, i'm a big moron in maths, (didn't understood the 2×1/2×4/6x4/6) but it seems at the end, the starsoul mace do better than the lightning hammer.

And the better the ennemy save is, the better the starsoul mace start to become. And it ignore any maluse to attack, or to hit, or to wound, or anything else.

It's still better in every way, because it's ultra reliable. Even if it become like the lunar blade or something. Automatic mortal wound on hit will always be better than a normal weapon, except if the normal weapon is completely busted.

Even against hordes, a decimator need to be around 7 opponents to be as good as a starsoul mace.

And if they nerf the starsoul mace, they could as well drop the Paladins in point or making them more resilient. We should wait to see the whole picture

1,6 over 1,54 is basically the same. And the first is supposed to be an upgrade. Plus 4+ save is a relatively high save (3+ is rarely found in regular units); yes, against characters, monsters or Nighthaunt the Starsoul maces get slightly better.

You also mention malus to hit benefiting Starsoul maces, but not bonus to hit making Lightning Hammers a lot better.

You make a good point: they must change the warscroll to modify how the Starsoul maces work. They may very well give Paladins something to compensate (the well deserved 3+ save, a small save against mortals, etc.). Let's wait and see. I no longer use Paladins, things can't get worse ?

[Turragor]

7 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

1,6 over 1,54 is basically the same

Wherever I were to fall on this particular debate, I don't think you're allowed to do a maths breakdown then say this

[DanielFM]

24 minutes ago, Turragor said:

Wherever I were to fall on this particular debate, I don't think you're allowed to do a maths breakdown then say this

Come on, what's the difference in game terms? ? Two of each do roughly 3 wounds on average. 

The difference in output between them is inconsequential. Only a tenth of a wound!

[Burf]

On 5/15/2018 at 4:36 PM, PJetski said:

Phoenixes are not very good though. They can be hard to kill but they do virtually no damage and all the defensive support gets tied into 1-2 units so you're free to eliminate the rest of the army behind them.

I'm always shocked to find out people are struggling to deal with those mixed order lists.

Except you're wrong and we have tons of data across multiple large events to prove that.

[Richelieu]

7 minutes ago, Burf said:

Except you're wrong and we have tons of data across multiple large events to prove that.

Yeah, the theme in these winning mixed order lists is the phoenixes.  The monsters are largely interchangeable, as are the battle line and wizards.  If you asked me if I would rather face 40 skinks or a Phoenix, the answer is no contest, 40 skinks.  I can break that unit like a water balloon if I have to, yet there is no tool in AoS that can chew through a Frost Phoenix in a reasonable amount of time.  

And yeah... It'll tie up one or two units so the rest of the opponent's unless are free to kill... Another Phoenix.  Or a 3+ rerolling monster, or some other terrible option.  

If staunch defender sticks around a star Drake plus Phoenix with a bunch of healing and shielding storm cast mages will be the most God awful annoying list to play against.

[trarux]

9 hours ago, barjed said:

What would be a safe bet to paint? I have a test model done - a paladin but I guess something like Liberators would be a safer option? Thanks!

Liberators and stardrake is safe I gues also the fulminators as they are both awsome and rly cool moldes (they probobly get a rise in points tho ) 

[chord]

15 hours ago, barjed said:

What would be a safe bet to paint? I have a test model done - a paladin but I guess something like Liberators would be a safer option? Thanks!

If you plan on painting all of it I would pick what you enjoy painting and starting there. If you are looking to paint for a list, the I'd go with the liberators, as I cant imagine the changes impacting them much at all

[chord]

11 hours ago, Richelieu said:

Yeah, the theme in these winning mixed order lists is the phoenixes.  The monsters are largely interchangeable, as are the battle line and wizards.  If you asked me if I would rather face 40 skinks or a Phoenix, the answer is no contest, 40 skinks.  I can break that unit like a water balloon if I have to, yet there is no tool in AoS that can chew through a Frost Phoenix in a reasonable amount of time.  

And yeah... It'll tie up one or two units so the rest of the opponent's unless are free to kill... Another Phoenix.  Or a 3+ rerolling monster, or some other terrible option.  

If staunch defender sticks around a star Drake plus Phoenix with a bunch of healing and shielding storm cast mages will be the most God awful annoying list to play against.

I see you've not played against Fyreslayers then

IMO anything with the ward saves is the worst.