Allies (DoK, Deepkin) using their temple/enclave abilities

[syph0n]

I watched a batrep where an Order Serpentis army allied in some Doomfire Warlocks. The guy assigned a temple to the Doomfire Warlocks, but obviously the allegiance of the army is only Order Serpentis. 

Is this legit? I didn't think it was but the guys playing didn't even question it. 

[EMMachine]

15 hours ago, Kramer said:

Don't think that the designer realised they were making a game changing descision but you might be right. By that logic, lore of shadows and Prayers are also game. But I don't think so. If all students would open their books to page .48   (hard cover version as digital might be different page)

The digital Version has the same page. I often have the german version as hard-/softcover and the digital version for the newer ones in the app.

An interesting point is, that we have 3 Title Fonts in those two pages. The biggest one for Allegiance Abilities, Battleplan, Path to Glory, Warscroll Battalions, Warscrolls (and in case of Deepkin "The Enclaves"). Strangely enough Daughters of Khaine only has the big box for "The Temples of Khaine" but not the mentioning in the same font as Allegiance Abilities.

And inside Allegiance Abilites we have the points

• Battletrait
• Command Trait
• Artefacts of Power
• Lore of Shadows (DoC) / Lore of the Deeps & Isharann Rituals (ID)
• Prayers of the Khainite Cults (DoC)
• The Ethersea (ID)

As well as Named Characters and Mounts in a bigger Font, but not as big as the others (for reasons I dont know).

It would be actually a narrative thing. It actually would make sense if a Temple, Enclave or something else still have its special rules even in a mixed list. The closest thing we have are actually the City Rules (which were restricted to the Grand Alliance -Allegiance Abilities with the FAQ).

Also interesting is the point "This does not change their allegiance", why would we need this sentence, if you need a specific allegiance to play it.

In the end, only asking GW will help, if this was intended.

 

[EMMachine]

27 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

Found it! Temples of Khaine are part of the allegiance abilities as stated in the last GA: Order FAQ

 

Q: Do the Stormcast Eternals in a Shadowhammer Compact 
battalion benefit from the bonuses that apply to any temple of 
Khaine that the army belongs to?
A: No. These units only benefit from allegiance abilities 
if they have the appropriate keyword – see ‘4. Allegiance’ 
on page 68 of the Battletome

And Allies dont get their allegiance abilities as stated in the Generals Handbook. 

Actually I don't know why it was answered this way. Point 4 Allegiance only says that, that the Allegiance of the Battalion can be chosen even if units inside the Battalion don't have the required keyword and a unit only profits from Allegiance Abilities if it has the Keyword. Stormcast can't profit because they don't have the Daughters of Khaine Keyword and inside the Battalion they aren't even Allies rulevise because the Battalion has Daughters of Khaine Allegiance.

The only thing I know is, if things like the Temples of Khaine should be part of Allegiance Abilities, the Layout on Page 48/49 is messed up because there has to be the point "The Temples of Khaine" in the same Font as Battletraits, Command Traits etc. and has to be mentioned before "Named Character" on page 48.

Saying that everything on page 48/49 is part of Allegiance Abilities would have the consequens that no Battalion or Warscroll of the Book could be used in any other army than Daughters of Khaine because there is a point "Warscroll Battalions" and "Warscrolls" on Page 49 (it has the same Titel Font as Allegiance Abilites so it shouldn't be a subpoint of Allegiance Abilities but we can say the same for "The Enclaves" in the Deepkin Battletome.

With this layout they aren't part of Allegiance Abilities.

[Gecktron]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

That a Ally can't get a Warlord Trait is clear, but the case with Artefacts I made a quite long post here (that it is entirely Keywordbased if something benefits from rules/artefacts):

Getting for example "The Darksword" for a Slaughterqueen should be the same thing as getting a Artefact of the Realm in the new Edition. Those Artefacts or Spells are part of the Temple/Enclave not part of the Allegiance Ability (the only thing is, that it has a reference that it has to get this Spell/Artefact instead of the one he/she would get with the Allegiance Ability.

In the end, asking GW FAQ Team should be the solution (if they will do anything before the new edition is released).

Found it! Temples of Khaine are part of the allegiance abilities as stated in the last GA: Order FAQ

 

Q: Do the Stormcast Eternals in a Shadowhammer Compact 
battalion benefit from the bonuses that apply to any temple of 
Khaine that the army belongs to?
A: No. These units only benefit from allegiance abilities 
if they have the appropriate keyword – see ‘4. Allegiance’ 
on page 68 of the Battletome

And Allies dont get their allegiance abilities as stated in the Generals Handbook. 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, heywoah_twitch said:

I don't think that's a proper interpretation tbh. "An army" is one thing, and "allies" is quite another. I haven't checked out the implications, but on first impression, to me this stops it dead. 

Please include the rest of the paragraph: On page 49 there is a box with info on the temples and how they work. It talks about 'organising your collecting of DAUGHTERS OF KHAINE miniatures as an army from one of the major temples of Khaine.' Which you could interpret as also applicable to mean allies in another army. The next paragraph state: 'when you organise your collection to be an army from one of the four temples listed in this section...' Which is a little clearer but also doesn't say it can't.  

The whole point was it doesn't explicitly say you can't but my interpretation is you can't. I do think that there is a difference between an 'army' and 'allies'. Allies are a part of your army. Page 77 of the digital GH17 states: 'The roster must include the units in your army, what size the units are, details of the upgrades they have, which units are allies, the army's allegiance....' 

So when you organise your collection into an army that also includes your allies, as they are part of your army. 

I still stand by my conclusion: allies can't benefit from their own separate allegiance abilities and temples are part of the allegiance abilities. 

So we reach the same conclusion but different reasons. But if you find any official but different definition of both 'army' and 'allies' let us know the source  Wouldn't be the first time GW uses several definitions for the same terms  

[heywoah_twitch]

On 6/4/2018 at 1:50 PM, Kramer said:

On page 49 there is a box with info on the temples and how they work. It talks about 'organising your collecting of DAUGHTERS OF KHAINE miniatures as an army from one of the major temples of Khaine.' Which you could interpret as also applicable to mean allies in another army.

I don't think that's a proper interpretation tbh. "An army" is one thing, and "allies" is quite another. I haven't checked out the implications, but on first impression, to me this stops it dead. 

[EMMachine]

27 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

I dont think you can take a DoK temple for your allies as they all require you to take a specific warlord trait, artefact or spell, which is not possible for allies.

That a Ally can't get a Warlord Trait is clear, but the case with Artefacts I made a quite long post here (that it is entirely Keywordbased if something benefits from rules/artefacts):

Getting for example "The Darksword" for a Slaughterqueen should be the same thing as getting a Artefact of the Realm in the new Edition. Those Artefacts or Spells are part of the Temple/Enclave not part of the Allegiance Ability (the only thing is, that it has a reference that it has to get this Spell/Artefact instead of the one he/she would get with the Allegiance Ability.

In the end, asking GW FAQ Team should be the solution (if they will do anything before the new edition is released).

[Gecktron]

I dont think you can take a DoK temple for your allies as they all require you to take a specific warlord trait, artefact or spell, which is not possible for allies.

[EMMachine]

8 minutes ago, syph0n said:

So re-reading the thread, the line @EMMachine mentions ("this does not change...") seems to suggest that yes, you can indeed use the Temple (or Enclave) rules when taking DoK as allies. So further to this, are Doomfire Warlocks able to take Lore of Shadows? 

OR - is this one for GW to FAQ? ?

The Lore of Shadows is more of a problem in this case because it is part of the Allegiance Abilities of Daughters of Khaine.

[syph0n]

So re-reading the thread, the line @EMMachine mentions ("this does not change...") seems to suggest that yes, you can indeed use the Temple (or Enclave) rules when taking DoK as allies. So further to this, are Doomfire Warlocks able to take Lore of Shadows? 

OR - is this one for GW to FAQ? ?

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, EMMachine said:

It would be actually a narrative thing. It actually would make sense if a Temple, Enclave or something else still have its special rules even in a mixed list. The closest thing we have are actually the City Rules (which were restricted to the Grand Alliance -Allegiance Abilities with the FAQ).

 Also interesting is the point "This does not change their allegiance", why would we need this sentence, if you need a specific allegiance to play it.

Yeah for narrative it makes perfect sense! you are absolutely right. 

I think that sentence is to extra clarify it's AND not OR a temple/conclave. 

3 hours ago, EMMachine said:

The digital Version has the same page. I often have the german version as hard-/softcover and the digital version for the newer ones in the app.

 

Good to know ?

[Kramer]

5 hours ago, EMMachine said:

In both cases. The Temples and Enclaves have the same Title font as Allegiance Abilities, so they are there own thing.

Don't think that the designer realised they were making a game changing descision but you might be right. By that logic, lore of shadows and Prayers are also game. But I don't think so. If all students would open their books to page .48   (hard cover version as digital might be different page)

I would say no. 1. because all this starts at page 48. Battle traits, command traits, artefact of power, lore of shadows and prayers of the khainite cult are all clearly grouped under allegiance abilities which says: 'Allegiance Abilities. From shadowy magic and bloodfuelled prayers to esoteric artefacts of incredible power, this sectino provides rules and abilities for DAUGHTERS OF KHAINE ARMIES.'

On page 49 there is a box with info on the temples and how they work. It talks about 'organising your collecting of DAUGHTERS OF KHAINE miniatures as an army from one of the major temples of Khaine.' Which you could interpret as also applicable to mean allies in another army. The next paragraph state: 'when you organise your collection to be an army from one of the four temples listed in this section...' Which is a little clearer but also doesn't say it can't.  

Looking at page 76 of the digital general's handbook it doesn't really say anything except that to remember that in most cases allegiance abilities only work for units with the appropriate keywords. 

So all in all I would argue, no you can't use temple bonus rules on your allied Daughters of Khaine. (I don't have the Idoneth book so can't judge that). 

[EMMachine]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Yes. They are part of the Allegiance pack same as Skyports etc..

Skyports aren't the same because they are Allegiance Abilities with fix Battletraits. It's a new thing since Daughters of Khaine and it's quite loredriven.

1 hour ago, Nico said:

The Enclaves etc.. are very firmly part of the Allegiance pack and do not work outside of that Allegiance. The wording you’re referring to is just stopping the Enclave abilities from applying to allies.

Pages 84-85 are consistent with this.

So you would say you can't use Battleplans,Path to Glory, Warscroll Battalions and Warscrolls if you don't have IDONETH DEEPKIN Allegiance because all these points are on Page 84-85? Page 84-85 is not an Allegiance Pack. It's only telling us, what rules we find where.

And the rules for Enclaves and Temples say nothing about Allegiance.

Quote

You can organise your collection of Idoneth Deepkin miniatures as an army from one of the major Idoneth enclaves, sinply by painting it in the enclave's colours. All Idoneth Deepkin units and warscroll battalions in the army are then consideresd to be from that enclave. ...  .This does not change their allegiance, but does give you access to some additional rules you can use for your army.

The rules for six of the major enclaves are presented on page 96-101. When you organise your collection to bes an army from one of the enclaves listed in the section, you can use extra abilities, and may gain access to a bespoke command trait or new spell. In addition, you can include additional units in certain warscroll battalions.

There is no mentioning, like "If you have IDONETH DEEPKIN Allegiance you can choose an enclave"

 

[Nico]

Yes. They are part of the Allegiance pack same as Skyports etc..

[syph0n]

OK, so we have a bit of conflict. Are you saying what I originally suggested @Nico, that the abilities belong to allegiance? 

[Nico]

The Enclaves etc.. are very firmly part of the Allegiance pack and do not work outside of that Allegiance. The wording you’re referring to is just stopping the Enclave abilities from applying to allies.

Pages 84-85 are consistent with this.

[syph0n]

1 hour ago, MrZakalwe said:

But just the temple/enclave trait. Not the rest of the features. 

Yeah that's cool. It's a nice little boost to any allies from this army then. 

[MrZakalwe]

But just the temple/enclave trait. Not the rest of the features. 

[syph0n]

So in this case, you could have 400pts of DoK/Deepkin and assign them their temple/enclave and benefit from their rules despite not being a DoK/Deepkin army. That's interesting.

[EMMachine]

Actually the Temples of Khaine aren't linked to the Allegiance Abilities. The rules only mention that all Daughters of Khaine units can be part of a temple.

Do to page 48 of the Battletome the following points are part of the Allegiance Abilities:

• Battletrait
• Command Trait
• Artefacts of Power
• Lore of Shadows
• Prayers of the Khainite Cults

It's actually the same for the Enclaves of Deepkin.

In both cases. The Temples and Enclaves have the same Title font as Allegiance Abilities, so they are there own thing.