Optimizing Lords of Sacrament

[Vortumnas]

Lords of Sacrament comes to 790 pts, i.e. 10 less than Nagash. Collectively, LoS gives more wounds and two behemoths compared to the Supreme Lord of the Undead, but it gives less spells, is less mobile (if you want your necromancers to benefit from the mortis engine), and is arguably less durable, especially if Nagash is in his first cohort.

So, I've been trying to think: is there a way LoS is worth taking over Nagash/first cohort?

I'm admittedly new to AoS, but I'm a longtime 40k player (off and on since 3rd ed), and played Vampire Counts in WHFB back in the day. I've got a lot of old models I'd love to breathe new life into and want my Arkhan to kick ass.

I figure: what are the major advantages of LoS?

+1 spells per turn per caster in the battalion

+1 to saves and +1 to cast in range of the ME

So, maximizing those, and considering Arkhan's command ability, I'm wondering how viable a hero-heavy council of necromancers is.

Something Like:

Arkhan

4 Necros

1 Vamp Lord

40 Spear Skellies

2x5 Dire Wolves

10 Hexwraiths

3 Spirit Hosts

1 Mortis Engine

Lords of Sacrament

1990

 

Either the Skellies or the Hosts start in the grave, while the other screens for all the necros. Everything with decent movement advances and pulls the other screen out of the grave for cover. Hit the enemy with 5 arcane bolts, 2 Vile Trans/Orbs and 5 Dread/Vigour/Van Hels. Plenty of Deathly Invocation to go around and big enough units to take the heat, except the wolves, who are for obj grabbing anyway.

I feel like this is crazy, but I like it. What would you change? What am I missing?

[Bradifer]

I'm fine with 2 necros in my list, so I think 3 would be enough to focus more on magic.

Here's my take w/ -1 necromancer +3 Spirit Hosts.

:Allegiance: Death
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)
- General
Necromancer (110)
Necromancer (110)
Necromancer (110)
Vampire Lord (140)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
10 x Hexwraiths (320)
6 x Spirit Hosts (240)
Mortis Engine (180)
Lords of Sacrament (70)
Total: 2000 / 2000

You can also go -6 spirit hosts for one of these:

• +2 Morghast Harbinger
• +40 skeletons (-5 Dire Wolves)
• +15 Grave Guard

Any of those options seems like a fun and powerful choice.

[GonnaWorkForFood]

9 hours ago, Vortumnas said:

Lords of Sacrament comes to 790 pts, i.e. 10 less than Nagash. Collectively, LoS gives more wounds and two behemoths compared to the Supreme Lord of the Undead, but it gives less spells, is less mobile (if you want your necromancers to benefit from the mortis engine), and is arguably less durable, especially if Nagash is in his first cohort.

So, I've been trying to think: is there a way LoS is worth taking over Nagash/first cohort?

I'm admittedly new to AoS, but I'm a longtime 40k player (off and on since 3rd ed), and played Vampire Counts in WHFB back in the day. I've got a lot of old models I'd love to breathe new life into and want my Arkhan to kick ass.

I figure: what are the major advantages of LoS?

+1 spells per turn per caster in the battalion

+1 to saves and +1 to cast in range of the ME

So, maximizing those, and considering Arkhan's command ability, I'm wondering how viable a hero-heavy council of necromancers is.

Something Like:

Arkhan

4 Necros

1 Vamp Lord

40 Spear Skellies

2x5 Dire Wolves

10 Hexwraiths

3 Spirit Hosts

1 Mortis Engine

Lords of Sacrament

1990

 

Either the Skellies or the Hosts start in the grave, while the other screens for all the necros. Everything with decent movement advances and pulls the other screen out of the grave for cover. Hit the enemy with 5 arcane bolts, 2 Vile Trans/Orbs and 5 Dread/Vigour/Van Hels. Plenty of Deathly Invocation to go around and big enough units to take the heat, except the wolves, who are for obj grabbing anyway.

I feel like this is crazy, but I like it. What would you change? What am I missing?

It might be just me but i find any sacrement list hard to run without at least 80 skeletons  and a really big threat . Something like VLoZD or 4 morghast . 

[Josh]

1 hour ago, GonnaWorkForFood said:

It might be just me but i find any sacrement list hard to run without at least 80 skeletons  and a really big threat . Something like VLoZD or 4 morghast . 

i run zero skellies in my 'LoS

[MrMiiike]

12 hours ago, Vortumnas said:

 Hit the enemy with 5 arcane bolts, 2 Vile Trans/Orbs and 5 Dread/Vigour/Van Hels. Plenty of Deathly Invocation to go around and big enough units to take the heat, except the wolves, who are for obj grabbing anyway.

I feel like this is crazy, but I like it. What would you change? What am I missing?

Can't cast the same spell twice?

[Vortumnas]

11 hours ago, Bradifer said:

I'm fine with 2 necros in my list, so I think 3 would be enough to focus more on magic.

Here's my take w/ -1 necromancer +3 Spirit Hosts...

Okay so I'm not too far off. I do like the bigger host unit. Thanks!

4 hours ago, GonnaWorkForFood said:

It might be just me but i find any sacrement list hard to run without at least 80 skeletons  and a really big threat . Something like VLoZD or 4 morghast . 

So you prefer something like: 

Arkhan, 2 necros, Vlozd, 2x40 skellies, 5wolves and 3 hosts? I like the big blocks, do you find them slow or unwieldy?

2 hours ago, Josh said:

i run zero skellies in my 'LoS

What's your list like? I'm curious

1 hour ago, MrMiiike said:

Can't cast the same spell twice?

Bah, you're right. Still getting used to AoS. Guess 4 necros would be kind of overkill. Hmm...

[Bradifer]

I think 2 x 40 skeletons is approaching optimal list building, but honestly the logistics of buying/building/painting/carrying and playing with 80 skeletons is simply not something I enjoy.

I play 40 because it's powerful and a death staple, 80 is just a chore on the hobby and a chore to play with. 

Just my opinions, but if you're never spent ~$200 on horde units and spent A LOT of time hobbying them, slow down and think about that investment.

Also, if we're really optimizing list building, we need to think about our list vs. every single mission.

We don't have to go into every matchup, but at least knowing what the plan is onDuality of Death as an example, where a VLOZD is great, but maybe 4 Morghasts are just scarier on a lot of other missions etc.

Also a VLOZD makes it easier to fly up and spawn a unit from the grave. These little synergies need to planned around.

[Vortumnas]

Well I've already got 40 skellies with spears, so another 40 wouldn't be too bad. I play Necrons and Catachans in 40k, so batch painting is no big deal.

I agree, the different battleplans definitely have an effect on a list's performance. My VL is an old mounted blooddragon model, so he could do what you're suggesting with the VLoZD, just a bit slower.

As far as a big threat/hammer unit goes, that was kind of what I wanted the hexwraiths to be, but I guess they're not scary enough. I just already have 5 of them and find they hold their own quite well, especially with my old Blooddragon buffing them up.

As for Morghasts, I feel like if I take them, I might as well take Nagash instead of LoS to really get the most out of them. LoS, to me, seems conducive to lots of characters and summonables to maximize spells and regen. I don't know.

Taking everything I'm reading here into consideration, what about something like this:

Arkhan

3 Necros

VLoZD or 4 Morghasts

2x40 Skellies

5 Wolves

ME

LoS

1960

40pts leftover is more than I would like, but the wolves could be swapped out for 10 more skellies I suppose.

 

[GonnaWorkForFood]

It depends on your meta i guess . I find 2 x 40 skelies to be more forgiving too . Sure its a pain to paint but i have mine from a heavy nighthaunt themed list so they are just painted ethereal .

 

Dunno if i would paint 80 skelies to a good quality without forcing myself nonetheless i am used to running them and i find it really solid . Nothing overpowered , just fairly solid . 

 

Still without knowing your group i dont think we can help really .

[Vortumnas]

We're primarily a 40k group. We started running some AoS Skirmish on the side, which evolved into smaller battles and now we're planning an escalation campaign.

There's a good mix of players, a couple of guys I'd call newbies (against whom I usually tone my lists down), a few middling players like I consider myself, and two who really are all about the cheese. 

One in particular plays Tzeentch/Alpha Legion in 40k with a bunch of forgeworld stuff, and she's turning that into a changehost for AoS - which even at 500pts (without the CH battalion) has been obliterating everything.

The other power player switches between Ironjaws and Stormcast Eternals. I can hold my own against him better, but haven't beat him yet.

The other guys are FEC, Kharadrons, Mixed Order, Khorne and Nurgle. I do alright against them.

I'm just trying to put together a list that capitalizes on the strengths of LoS enough to take out that Changehost and those Ironjaws/SE

[Lord Veshnakar]

If not two units of 40 skeletons, one unit of 40 skeletons, and one unit of 60 zombies is a LOT of fun.

[GonnaWorkForFood]

5 hours ago, Vortumnas said:

We're primarily a 40k group. We started running some AoS Skirmish on the side, which evolved into smaller battles and now we're planning an escalation campaign.

There's a good mix of players, a couple of guys I'd call newbies (against whom I usually tone my lists down), a few middling players like I consider myself, and two who really are all about the cheese. 

One in particular plays Tzeentch/Alpha Legion in 40k with a bunch of forgeworld stuff, and she's turning that into a changehost for AoS - which even at 500pts (without the CH battalion) has been obliterating everything.

The other power player switches between Ironjaws and Stormcast Eternals. I can hold my own against him better, but haven't beat him yet.

The other guys are FEC, Kharadrons, Mixed Order, Khorne and Nurgle. I do alright against them.

I'm just trying to put together a list that capitalizes on the strengths of LoS enough to take out that Changehost and those Ironjaws/SE

I do believe that we can hold our own vs changehost . Depending on how many skyfires he has , a bat swarm will do wonders , even without it tho with overwhelming dread you are ok .

The worst matchup for me atm would be nurgle . Too many -1 to hit and i can not remove that 20 man unit of blightkings .

Sacrement holds really good on the magic game .  A balewind vortex will make it simple to neutralize something from really far . I find death better at wars of attrition . If the skyfires are shut down we can make it work with solid positioning . Just konga line the skelies and you should do good.  

 

I run something really similar to what you posted above , just instead of a third necro i usually get a balewind and use the remaining 490 to fill depending the demand . 

 

Going vs SCE ? Spirit hosts and hexwraights rock 

Going vs khadrons ? Another group of skelies and some dogs 

If i wanted more of a presence in casting i would stick to a vlozd , he is scary with an artifact . And if i wanted more of a punch i would take the harbringers . 

 

Last tip , it took me more than i am proud to admit but an inspiring presence goes a long way in keeping your hordes alive and will win you games . 

 

[Diemer84]

If you have 40 points to spare in your list, then why not upgrade your VLOZD to Vhordrai? If the standard VLOZD cannot be your general I feel like Vhordrai is a lot better, and with a. pinions and his shooting attack he is scary. 

[Arael_Greywings]

14 hours ago, Bradifer said:

I think 2 x 40 skeletons is approaching optimal list building, but honestly the logistics of buying/building/painting/carrying and playing with 80 skeletons is simply not something I enjoy.

I play 40 because it's powerful and a death staple, 80 is just a chore on the hobby and a chore to play with. 

Just my opinions, but if you're never spent ~$200 on horde units and spent A LOT of time hobbying them, slow down and think about that investment.

Also, if we're really optimizing list building, we need to think about our list vs. every single mission.

We don't have to go into every matchup, but at least knowing what the plan is onDuality of Death as an example, where a VLOZD is great, but maybe 4 Morghasts are just scarier on a lot of other missions etc.

Also a VLOZD makes it easier to fly up and spawn a unit from the grave. These little synergies need to planned around.

Yeah the painting of 80 Models which in turn equal 2 Units is something of a project (and a drag). Budgetwise I think though it is not so bad if you got for Mantic Models. They actually have a 40 Modes Horde Box which (compared to GW) is quite cheap.

[Dracothjay]

I think having blocks of skeletons is needed in this legion. Our magical hero’s are easily killed, hell even our mortachs are squishy and having a solid line of defence protecting them is needed in my opinion. The way I see it, in LoS magic is the HAMMER so the best offense is a good defence. 

[Josh]

^ i think is more a control army that allows you to pick & choose your fights

[Bradifer]

The magic isn't really killing most of the enemies, aside from randomly lucky Curse of Years instakills.

The magic is debuffing the enemies into being inefficient. You get some mortal wounds depending on the spells you picked, but the debuffs are the strongest spells IMO.

The debuffed units mean our opponent fights us in waves of weaker enemies. Your units don't have to be great to beat debuffed enemies, they just need to survive our get lot of value from whatever they did (like tarpitting an enemy hammer).

Units that get debuffed and eventually killed help contribute to our attrition plan as we just need to survive and outlast them. (Battleshock phase helps here with our -1's).

There are moments where your goal isn't to outlast, but to overpower so you can capture the object. Like @Josh said, we have some control tools to help us focus and punch through certain enemies...Such as focused MW via magic, Vanhels cast on a unit to fight vs the target...Or take over positioning and require that unit to move to a space where it becomes vulnerable to our slower units.

I think Vanhels is such a scary tool, so I like to have multiple options for where to place it. I.e. 40 skeletons & 10 Hexwraiths & 6 Spirit Hosts & 15 Grave Guard etc...

Also, what hero are you all usually using to summon units from the grave? I'm not inclined to push my Arkhan up far enough to summon the frontline, but it's always an option.

Or, do you even use grave summoning at all? If so what units are you popping out?

[Dracothjay]

I have never really used summing via gravesites to be honest. I’m too much of a cautious player and like everything close to togeather in a bubble. I’ve used it once for 3 spirit host to get ahead a baby sit an objective until my army made it up the board. I need to use it more often, more for baiting than anything else. Just fly my VL forward then summon the 40 skellies in front of him so there’s a chargeable target for my enemy to draw him in to combat early.

[Honk]

For me, summoning is too much tactical thinking, I‘d probably ****** up more often than get things right.

the positioning of 40 skellis within 9“ but also 9“ away from the opponent, together with my tendency to do bunch up my Graves in the middle...that depends too much on first turn, which opens the enemy double turn opportunity, together with the lack of buffing spells...and then my brain starts hurting

 

but i guess if done right, a bunch of spirit hosts, blocking one objektive... but f.e. morghast with their big bases or a tg  

i‘d rather have them on the table charging forward to divert damage from my sacrament battalion

[Vortumnas]

Gravesites have been handy in smaller games for me, at least. Run my mounted VL out to one first turn with some Dire Wolves for protection and pop out something slower - skellies, hosts, whatever. It's essentially bonus movement for that slower unit then. Also, less drops, which helps.

[ogmaadn]

I agree that playing Legion of Sacrament requires big units, that's what I'm going to play this army list which seems like the most viable and competitive one, also really funny to bring to the table:

Arkhan the Black

Necromancer

Necromancer

40x skeletons with spears

40x skeletons with spears 

10x skeletons with blades & shields

30x grave guard with greatblades

5x black knights

Mortis Engine

Lords of Sacrament battalion

1970 pts

Or maybe dropping 10 grave guard and increasing black knights to 10 so that I have 4 big blocks (40 skellies, 40 skellies, 20 gg and 10 bk). What do you think is better? I'm leaning towards 30 grave guard since they are a killing machine if they can stay alive long enough. On the other hand, I feel it is really unlikely and tough to get 10 black knights in combat at the same time, and the utility of resurrection on BK is really limited since they are 2-wound models. But perhaps I'm wrong. Well, and it is also possible to drop both 5 BK and 10 GG and adding 2 Morghasts since they are nice, but not sure about how they will synergize with the Legion of Sacrament.

The other thing I'm thinking is dropping 10 grave guard or most likely the 5 black knights and replacing them with a Balewind Vortex... Thoughts on this? I feel like bodies are better than Balewind Vortex for the Legion of Sacrament since we rely that much on numbers, heroes and resurrection mechanics, but haven't tested Vortex yet so maybe it is something to consider.

[Vortumnas]

Yes, this thread has convinced me of the necessity of big blocks to protect our characters.

Something to consider that I've been thinking about: GG are battleline in G Grand Host of Nagash.

So if you went with that instead of Legion of Sacrament, I believe you can still take the LoS battalion (correct me if I'm wrong), and could drop the 10 skellies, leaving you with 110pts to play around with.

If you dropped the BKs too, you'd have 230 for a couple of morghasts instead

[Josh]

take a look in the thread i started regarding matched play lists @Vortumnas might give you some good ideas

[Honk]

On 14.4.2018 at 9:07 PM, Vortumnas said:

Also, less drops, which helps.

Nope, a unit in a gravesite is a single drop, just like a SC units in Azyr...sorry

[Vortumnas]

Well shoot. Oh well now I know