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Bretonnians in the Current Meta


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So as a preface, I haven't played Bretonnians in AoS. But I do have some thoughts on them:

1. They suffer from the fact none of the compendium scrolls gained the benefits from GHB2017. The only re-pointed stuff was things that were overpowered, not underpowered. In GHB2017 we saw some pretty large shifts on the pointing of cavalry units. Almost universally they all came down in points, but the Bretonnians don't get the same luxuries. They also don't get massive unit bonuses, and are still pointed in the weird 'number of models in a box' rather than more sensible 5's and 10's. To get 'minimum' battleline you need to spend 360 points on Men-at-arms, when most armies can spend 180-240-300,

2. Again, none of the Bretonnian stuff was re-pointed, but a lot of their stuff changed in the new compendium. Mainly for the worse, as units lost abilities.

3. They basically get no use out of their banners, because they're tied to the Order allegiance abilities. All of their banners allow re-rolls of battleshock, which they get anyway through the allegiance abilities.

4. Heavy reliance on charging for a lot of their abilities. Want to deal more damage? Need to charge. Want to re-roll 1's to save? Need to charge.

5. Not sure if it matters, but they also lost their warscroll battalions which restricts their access to artefacts and ability to reduce drops.

They did get one advantage though:

1. All their named characters became generic characters without losing any abilities. This means they can all be given artefacts or if the general, command traits.

 

So my gut feel is that outside building a very skewed list around the few good things in the army (Hint : Grail Knights are pretty baller), it's probably a lower tier army just due to the fact that most units in the list are probably around 20 points overcosted (some being more overcosted than that).

I think if they had their own allegiance abilities and got some love and care in the points department, they could be a fairly mid-tier army. For example, I wrote up some allegiance abilities a while ago and re-pointed them to a place where I feel they would be pretty playable:

Bretonnian Allegiance Abilities

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They're not a supported army.

Wrong, they got updated warscrolls with the GHB 2k17 along with TK.

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Not sure if it matters, but they also lost their warscroll battalions which restricts their access to artefacts and ability to reduce drops.

This is a bit unclear, they stil exist in the PAID mobile app (with points for matched play).

 

The biggest problem with them is as mentioned allegiance abilities cover with some unit buffs like banners. Also the battleline is a bit restricted since only MaA, Errants & Realms count.

All that they need is exclusive allegiance, more battleline options. For the current meta if you find the army underpowered you can always make home rule - Bretonnia + 150pts for example. This was often used for armies in WFB and worked well.

And one nice combo Trebs + Lord Ordinator = rain of death :)

 

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3 hours ago, Verengard said:

This is a bit unclear, they stil exist in the PAID mobile app (with points for matched play).

 

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It's not unclear. Just lazy devs. Don't trust the app. It's not updated properly and is not to be used as a rulebook..ever. It's always the latest GHB and latest compendium version to be used. Battalions were definitely removed from matched play for compendium armies.

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18 minutes ago, Trayanee said:

It's not unclear. Just lazy devs. Don't trust the app. It's not updated properly and is not to be used as a rulebook..ever. It's always the latest GHB and latest compendium version to be used. Battalions were definitely removed from matched play for compendium armies.

Thats possible, anyway it's confusing if it can be found in the official and especialy paid app.

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The world they lived on was destroyed, their country and society don't exist anymore, their gods are probably dead, all their special characters are dead and their rules have been relegated (for now at least) to a place where you can play Age of Sigmar with them if you really want to but it may not be as fun or engaging as playing with a more developed army that has more of a place in the setting...

On the other hand..

One of my friends plays Bret's when we play warhammer fantasy and appears to enjoy them as much as he ever did.

You can also play 9th Age with them where they are Kingdom of Equitaine and the units have different names but its the same units as the end of 8th edition.

They could also port over to Kings of War.

The new Warhammer Legends project (to re-release made to order classic models with updated AoS warscrolls) may make the warhammer fantasy armies far more fun to play in AoS - though you won't be able to use them in competitive matched play because they won't have official points.

So if by "meta" you mean how do they feature in the balance of power of competitive matched play - they don't feature in it at all. If you mean is it still possible to use some models that you really enjoy in AoS, then yes it is but you will probably have a better time if you play with an opponent who is similarly interested in putting some cool models on the table and having a fun game rather than seeing "who has the best army"

Another option is to repaint your army as hexwraiths and zombies and start playing a Death army which is actually quite a logical way to introduce Brets into AoS - you know, cos they're all dead.....

Sorry you had to hear it like this dude :D :P

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12 hours ago, Verengard said:

Wrong, they got updated warscrolls with the GHB 2k17 along with TK.

This is a bit unclear, they stil exist in the PAID mobile app (with points for matched play).

 

The biggest problem with them is as mentioned allegiance abilities cover with some unit buffs like banners. Also the battleline is a bit restricted since only MaA, Errants & Realms count.

All that they need is exclusive allegiance, more battleline options. For the current meta if you find the army underpowered you can always make home rule - Bretonnia + 150pts for example. This was often used for armies in WFB and worked well.

And one nice combo Trebs + Lord Ordinator = rain of death :)

 

Removing the free people keyword and destroying all their synergy with freeguild and such is hardly what i would call a "support"

They don't appear in the fluff, GW don't sell them anymore. 

 

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  • 3 months later...
On 4/11/2018 at 3:44 PM, Twitch of Izalith said:

The world they lived on was destroyed, their country and society don't exist anymore, their gods are probably dead, all their special characters are dead and their rules have been relegated (for now at least) to a place where you can play Age of Sigmar with them if you really want to but it may not be as fun or engaging as playing with a more developed army that has more of a place in the setting...

I don’t buy this line of thinking.

Literally everything from the world that was died, didn’t it? Except Slann and some gods, or whatever.

Every army from Fantasy except Tomb Kings and Bretonnia are “supported” in AoS by being “alive” in the world... but how did they get there? Black Guard are in the game, but they’re not from Naggarond anymore are they, so where are they from? 

Simply put, all the old units are just rebranded versions of what they used to be.

There’s no reason Bretonnians can’t fit into this world. They’re just human knights. There are humans alive in AoS, and there are knights alive in AoS. There are stories of knightly orders dotted around. Playing Bretonnia is just playing human knights. Just because they haven’t been given a generic name like Order Chivalric or something doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

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I would also say the bretonnians fit very well in the realms. Try to think out of the box to give your army a competitive touch. There are great conversions for Stormcast allies with bretonnian helmets, weapons and shields. You can also get ideas from the other human factions and bind them all together into your bretonnian army.

https://angiesarmies.com/2016/05/06/bretonnian-stormcast-eternal/

The bretonnians are about Knighthood. There is plenty of to find in the realms.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

It's all about what you want from them. Are they competitive in the current meta? Can be, I'll go over my experiences with then in a little bit. Are they a part of the current lore of the AoS game? Not really, but that doesn't stop anyone from having your own army that fits in with your local gaming group. My Brets, for example, are those that survived the destruction of the World-That-Was, thanks to Lileath's intervention during the End Times. Now, many generations later, they serve Alarielle as the newest avatar of the Lady of  the Lake. Bretonnian  has always been my favourite army, have been for decades, and while they do suffer from some units being over costed, they are by no means unplayable, you just need to know what to do with them.

 

Below is a pretty quick rundown of my experiences with them so far, mostly against Nagash and nighthaunt.

Start with your heroes; aside from the old BSB and foot-knight, our heroes are really good. The Bretonnian Lord has a good save, decent command ability, hits decently well (his lance is misprinted saying he gets +1 to hit instead of +1 to wound on the charge), and can move fast. It's pretty good for a 140 point model.

Damsels are also a good choice. Their ability to heal a knight pays off more often than I care to admit and their Blessing of the Lady spell is essential to keeping your large blob of knights alive. Like the Bretonnian lord, give her a pegasus and you've got a decent support hero for 100 points that is hard to pin down.

Never leave home without a prophetess. Two spells a turn (very handy with endless spells!), heals d3 a turn AND can re-roll an unsuccessful casting each turn (just don't roll that one afterward) really means this tough nut is a bargain at 160.

The king is an expensive but necessary hero for this army. He is a decent combat hero and can take a few punches before being brought down so pick your targets carefully. This shouldn't be too much of an issue since he flies and can move pretty fast. What makes the king so important is both his command ability (+1 to hit with charging knights) and his regal crown (no battleshockwith 24" bubble). These two are vital in making your knights hit hard and keeping anyone from running. The last one is especially important since inspiring presence requires command points. Again, expensive at 400 points but he'll earn his points back if played right and you pick the appropriate command traits and relics.

Noble champions and noble battle standards I find aren't really worth too much consideration since their rules are lackluster considering alliegence abilities cover what they do or the king makes it moot.

 

I love my knight errants but they need support to be worth it. Their average roll means they need the prophetess and king to get a 2+ to hit (re-roll 1's with a damsel/prophetess nearby). It relies on luck and circumstance to get the most of them. For 20 points more, Knights of the Realm hit easier and have better bravery which is hard to argue with. Consider one unit to help ease batteline requirements and any other knightly needs use Knights of the Realm who can be more independent on the field.

Questing knights are flavourful, hit monsters like they're supposed to. Their small numbers means choose your monster target carefully so they dont get pulverized or delegate them to knocking off  medium armour foes. 

Grail knights.... Oh baby Grail knights are MAD, especially against death and daemons. Rend, re-roll to hit near a prophetess, multiple attacks, these knights have it all. I've seen them wipe a Morngul out on one charge, beat Nagash into a coma and shatter a daemonette mob. Against other targets they are good just make sure that they, like all knights, charge and they will carry you through.

Pegasus knights are very mobile objective grabbers/contesters. Expensive at 200 points for three models that don't hit hard enough to threaten much above vanguard units.

 

Men-at-arms are cheap objective holders (buy at least 32 to fend off most attacks, 48 if you want a brick to never move), good also for batteline requirements. Bowman are just way too expensive for what they do.  I haven't had much practice with battle pilgrims or mounted yeoman, they look useful but need to be brought into consideration when building your list. Trebuchets are wicked warmachines, aim at hordes and laugh as they smash them to bits! 

 

My typical army includes a king, prophetess, damsel, unit of errants, KotR, big mob of Men at Arms followed by Grail knights as the core. I mix in trebuchet or more Knights depending on the day and how previous battles have gone. I would recommend as many knights as possible. We certainly aren't at the top but we are by no means unplayable. Bretonnians, as always, require you to know your army to be effective. Screen the knights to blunt alpha strikes, combine changes to devastate your opponents, have a reserve unit of knights to back up any  charges that don't break through just like in older editions. I've yet to use endless spells with them but I foresee some nasty combos with the geminids or soulsnares could really aid us in making the battles go at our pace.

 

I've got lots of ideas on what would help Brets out without too much change to points/rules anyone is welcome to try. I'd appreciate feedback to see how it does for others.

-banners give +1 to bravery when charging instead of re-rolls to battleshock

-pegasus knights pile-in 6"

-Knights Errant/Knights of the Realm re-roll 1's to wound when over 10 models.

- few points tweaks like King and Bowmen dropping 40 points. Questing knights, pegasus knights and errants by 20 points. 

Any players sending feedback to GW would also be appreciated so they see people still want to play them and an update would be appreciated. Cheers!

 

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On 4/10/2018 at 8:41 PM, someone2040 said:

I think if they had their own allegiance abilities and got some love and care in the points department, they could be a fairly mid-tier army. For example, I wrote up some allegiance abilities a while ago and re-pointed them to a place where I feel they would be pretty playable:

Bretonnian Allegiance Abilities

Someone2040, these are quite well written and produced. Can't wait to try this out! Did you share this with GW feedback?

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5 minutes ago, Tathanori said:

Someone2040, these are quite well written and produced. Can't wait to try this out! Did you share this with GW feedback?

Thanks!

I haven't really sent them anywhere as I don't think GW really care that much about the compendium armies. You can see this by the GHB2017 when they basically just made compendium scrolls worse overall and weren't actually rebalanced. They don't want you using them, because it doesn't make them any money.

So I guess my intent with that document wasn't to change the scrolls (as IMO they're pretty serviceable anyway), but to give them cool allegiance abilities in line with the allegiance abilities in the GHB as well as rebalance the points a bit (Give them some love and care that the 'official' armies have received in the points adjustments).

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Might be worth a shot. Not much may come from it but they are doing an update before legends comes out. Might make them add some changes before Bretonnia gets their due.

I agree that their warsrolls make sense but needed something else to stay current. The banners we're probably my biggest bugbear since it clashed so much with the allegiance abilities order retains. I do find it quite funny that we had almost the same adjustment for points! Maybe we are onto something there. 

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