Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Ashtyn]

3 minutes ago, Killax said:

Well thaking one Necromancer will still allow for some cool things. The advantage of going that speedy route is that some Direwolves can easily be used as a bubblwrap for one Necromancer. I am personally not really that sold on the bats. It helps that they fly and such but I believe they where 80 a pair/trio? Which makes them half the cost of a minimum Hexwraith unit? Which makes me go in that direction instantly. As they fly over and still can hurt stuff I think they are easily amongst the best choices also if you simply said can't find the points for X or Y.

Necromancer on Vortex should do the trick! I hate the Vortex with a passion but can't ignore it's competitive uses  

Give it a go.

My perspective on dealing with a 'strong shooting meta' remains applying Legion of Night in combination with Terrorgheists. As you decide when they come in it's a nice counter strategy to a shooting meta as you completely have the option to keep your Deathrattle swarms on your side of the board with good armour.

Dealing with Skyfires doesn't get much easier if you force them to either come to you or have a Terrorgheist in store for them. The issue I have with Arkhan and his Battalion isn't massive, it's just that you do purposefully choose one key Hero that will be the key target and basically present that as your gameplan. It's a gameplan that actually works out really well against a melee meta and it's the same gameplan that actually makes a shooting meta so good.

Same is true for me as a Khorne player, I have to present a melee orientated army. The prime reason why it's not difficult for a great shooting army to deal with it is because it just needs some LoS to a Bloodsecrator and thake out the lynchpin. I can't stress how much Legions of Nagash don't have to focus on any of the Mortarchs. I get the fandom but I want to highlight that Legions of Nagash is great against a shooting meta the moment you don't go for the Mortarchs or Nagash. This way there is no sole target to thake out...

My only fear with board edge movement is how easy it is to block or defend a gun-line from a Terrorghiest with  such a large base. Which if you aint getting a double turn is pin cushioned to death next turn. 

I played ghoul patrol a lot, and I realized that a clever opponent can completely neuter your deployment shennanigans. Understandably you can hold the terrogheist back till later, but that just means they're shooting at your hordes or your chars, a simple 5 man unit that costs 50 - 80 points can extend the terrorgheists deployment by an extra 9 inches meaning you  ain't screaming or charging at the ranged units. And you are banking on a double turn to get investment out the the deployment. the ranged units can also split attacks, so 5 wound models without any negatives to shooting or decent saves are going to get wrecked .

Overwhelming dread does help a ton with this though, especially if you get off the 9+ for minus 2 to hit. At the end of the day we will simply need to play test all these builds out and see how the meta shifts. I feel it may shift into attempting to deal with an unkillable Nagash, considering how bonkers First Cohort is. 

[Burf]

3 hours ago, Ashtyn said:

My only fear with board edge movement is how easy it is to block or defend a gun-line from a Terrorghiest with  such a large base. Which if you aint getting a double turn is pin cushioned to death next turn. 

I played ghoul patrol a lot, and I realized that a clever opponent can completely neuter your deployment shennanigans. Understandably you can hold the terrogheist back till later, but that just means they're shooting at your hordes or your chars, a simple 5 man unit that costs 50 - 80 points can extend the terrorgheists deployment by an extra 9 inches meaning you  ain't screaming or charging at the ranged units. And you are banking on a double turn to get investment out the the deployment. the ranged units can also split attacks, so 5 wound models without any negatives to shooting or decent saves are going to get wrecked .

Overwhelming dread does help a ton with this though, especially if you get off the 9+ for minus 2 to hit. At the end of the day we will simply need to play test all these builds out and see how the meta shifts. I feel it may shift into attempting to deal with an unkillable Nagash, considering how bonkers First Cohort is. 

Don't forget, not every army has skyfires and Stormcast can't bubblewrap for ******. 

[Burf]

3 hours ago, Killax said:

Well thaking one Necromancer will still allow for some cool things. The advantage of going that speedy route is that some Direwolves can easily be used as a bubblwrap for one Necromancer. I am personally not really that sold on the bats. It helps that they fly and such but I believe they where 80 a pair/trio? Which makes them half the cost of a minimum Hexwraith unit? Which makes me go in that direction instantly. As they fly over and still can hurt stuff I think they are easily amongst the best choices also if you simply said can't find the points for X or Y.

Necromancer on Vortex should do the trick! I hate the Vortex with a passion but can't ignore it's competitive uses  

Give it a go.

My perspective on dealing with a 'strong shooting meta' remains applying Legion of Night in combination with Terrorgheists. As you decide when they come in it's a nice counter strategy to a shooting meta as you completely have the option to keep your Deathrattle swarms on your side of the board with good armour.

Dealing with Skyfires doesn't get much easier if you force them to either come to you or have a Terrorgheist in store for them. The issue I have with Arkhan and his Battalion isn't massive, it's just that you do purposefully choose one key Hero that will be the key target and basically present that as your gameplan. It's a gameplan that actually works out really well against a melee meta and it's the same gameplan that actually makes a shooting meta so good.

Same is true for me as a Khorne player, I have to present a melee orientated army. The prime reason why it's not difficult for a great shooting army to deal with it is because it just needs some LoS to a Bloodsecrator and thake out the lynchpin. I can't stress how much Legions of Nagash don't have to focus on any of the Mortarchs. I get the fandom but I want to highlight that Legions of Nagash is great against a shooting meta the moment you don't go for the Mortarchs or Nagash. This way there is no sole target to thake out...

Now to counter this point, anything with high bravery like daemons or death or most hero units doesn't care about a terrorgeists shriek (it's 'characteristic' not just bravery) and you only have a 28% chance of making that charge. You're putting a lot of eggs into a doubleturning basket.

 

[Nullius]

7 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

@Nullius
Very encouraging. That is the "mixed order" netlist that has been ruining peoples lives for a while now. Love the idea that you can win with Nagash now. Did he try to just shoot the Morghast? That seems like the loophole in this whole overpriced battalion - your opponent simply kills the Morghast then finishes off Nagash. Over half your army in 28 wounds. 

I let Nagash at the tip of the spear, with the Morghasts slightly behind him and carefully out of range of the handgunners for one turn, and I dropped Mystic Shield on the Morghasts to make them as tough to wound as Nagash. Furthermore they were Archai, so they’re rocking a 5+ save against mortal wounds. This means that, while they can light up the two morghasts instead of Nagash, they still have a pile of wounds almost on a or with Nagash to Work through, and if you can put the critters in a wildwood or something then they’re really gonna be ok. But yeah, I would run a kind of flying “V” formation with Nagash at the tip and the morghasts three inches behind. The opponent can spend a turn killing the morghasts, but that keeps Nagash in the fight, which is the whole point of the morghasts anyway. You can also mitigate this by running four morghasts, but my feeling is that they’re just too damned expensive for that.

[Malakithe]

One of my issues with not using a Mortarch is  what other durable options are there? They do have big targets on them but they can weather the storm far better then any of the foot heroes can.

[Jaehaerys]

16 minutes ago, Burf said:

Now to counter this point, anything with high bravery like daemons or death or most hero units doesn't care about a terrorgeists shriek (it's 'characteristic' not just bravery) and you only have a 28% chance of making that charge. You're putting a lot of eggs into a doubleturning basket.

 

Would just have banners? They don't state it only loses bravery in battleshock.  Just a flat debuff to the characteristic. I thought anyway

[Burf]

5 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

One of my issues with not using a Mortarch is  what other durable options are there? They do have big targets on them but they can weather the storm far better then any of the foot heroes can.

You're pretty much left with Arkhan, Vhordrai, VLoZD, or filling your hero slots if you don't want to get snipperred. Even then, outside of LoNi and LoS, your general's getting murdered pretty much no matter what.

[Killax]

11 minutes ago, Burf said:

Now to counter this point, anything with high bravery like daemons or death or most hero units doesn't care about a terrorgeists shriek (it's 'characteristic' not just bravery) and you only have a 28% chance of making that charge. You're putting a lot of eggs into a doubleturning basket.

 

What exactly is the counterpoint? 

- All Legions of Nagash armies have acces to a Bravery debuff through standards (and more).
- Why would you have to make a charge to begin with? Your opponent is in a much worse spot.
- Legions of Nagash has acces to the most 'bubble-wrap' units in the game. Not only do you have the flexability to not worry about charges, you can screen him and fly over to whole different locations on the spot.
Unless you have no idea how to play a Terrorgheist well, your not putting a lot of eggs into any particular basket.

What is putting a lot of eggs in one basket is reaching for 440-800 point single characters which are in your interest to stick around due to summonning and Deadly Invocation but you thake over the cheaper units which then cut into all forms of great protection Legions of Nagash units offer.

[Burf]

5 minutes ago, Jaehaerys said:

Would just have banners? They don't state it only loses bravery in battleshock.  Just a flat debuff to the characteristic. I thought anyway

Good catch, they changed the banners too, as well as the spells. They were on point with the wording in this case. Good for GW.

[Nullius]

7 hours ago, Ashtyn said:

 

A good way to counter the 'shoot the morghast strategy is to up their numbers. 4 Archai will definitely  get shot at but this is 24 wounds, and you could have them in 2 different units, meaning that its easier to place them in cover for the extra save. 

My only worry with a Nagash list is if you fail a casting roll or get unbound, you then cant cast for the rest of the hero phase, or am I reading the rules wrong?

You can counter the “shoot the morghasts” by making them have as good a save as possible (mystic shield and cover) and by keeping them behind Nagash and ideally slightly out of range of some of the opponent’s shooting. I would love to take four, but they’re just too expensive. Not sure where to find any rule about a wizard no longer being able to cast spells if he fails one. That’s not in the main rules.

[Killax]

10 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

One of my issues with not using a Mortarch is  what other durable options are there? They do have big targets on them but they can weather the storm far better then any of the foot heroes can.

I couldn't dissagree more. In actual practice your Mortarchs are the easiest models to focus on, remove and snowball into a win for your opponent. Why? Because they are:
1. Huge targets, difficult to hide from LoS
2. Have large bases, meaning they cannot go wherever they want to (thanks to Flying)
3. Force you to not play your durable options... Your durable options are models with the Summonning Keyword.

Age of Sigmar has no large durable characters. Because the way the Shooting phase works almost every army significantly prefers using a multitude of smaller support heroes and break through with it's units. You also do this because ignoring characters is either the plan or your opponent cannot reach them because you don't present them as such.

I am assumming you guys play terrain on your boards. If you arn't able to hide a 28mm model on foot from LoS or combat due to using your units and terrain to your advantage your doing something wrong.

[Nullius]

3 minutes ago, Killax said:

I couldn't dissagree more. In actual practice your Mortarchs are the easiest models to focus on, remove and snowball into a win for your opponent. Why? Because they are:
1. Huge targets, difficult to hide from LoS
2. Have large bases, meaning they cannot go wherever they want to (thanks to Flying)
3. Force you to not play your durable options... Your durable options are models with the Summonning Keyword.

Age of Sigmar has no large durable characters. Because the way the Shooting phase works almost every army significantly prefers using a multitude of smaller support heroes and break through with it's units. You also do this because ignoring characters is either the plan or your opponent cannot reach them because you don't present them as such.

I am assumming you guys play terrain on your boards. If you arn't able to hide a 28mm model on foot from LoS or combat due to using your units and terrain to your advantage your doing something wrong.

Agreed, but Nagash is an exception. The VLOZD in Legion of Blood is also an exception. Both because they can get a “reroll saves of one,” Nagash through his command ability and VLOZD with the LOB artifact. Combine that with Mystic shield, and you have a pretty durable critter. 

[Killax]

Just now, Nullius said:

Agreed, but Nagash is an exception. The VLOZD in Legion of Blood is also an exception. Both because they can get a “reroll saves of one,” Nagash through his command ability and VLOZD with the LOB artifact. Combine that with Mystic shield, and you have a pretty durable critter. 

Nagash is, yet for 800 points bringing him to 2K is the sub-game of play vs Nagash. Can't say I highly think of it because Archaon (even with 9 fate dice) is in a similar position of the game turning against you if Objectives are in play.

A VLoZD is hitty but not durable. Comming from a Khorne player I see durable in stuff I cannot simply delete with a blob of Bloodletters or Bloodthirster. The re-roll saves would only apply if there is a save at all, which in quite some cases isn't there.

The reality for me is that your better of running at least 2x Vampire Lord on foot (or horse if your cav heavy) and 2x Necromancers. Focus on hard hitting expandable units. Expendable in the sence that your Deadly Invocations and Spells do not go simply offline. Present the problem to your opponent in dual strenght, stacking a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon means the opponent only has to focus on one issue, seperating them on foot and a Terrorgheist means opponents cannot simply awnser one question. Double that and you have what I call a competitive list.

Even Nagash is fun and all but if you want to spend a lot of points into one unit I'd seriously consider 6x Morghast Harbingers over him in Grand Host of Nagash. The principle is the same. Even if your opponent can deal with that unit you have your Vampire Lords and Skeleton Warriors/Summonables left.

The key to victory for horde like armies (which Legions of Nagash does best) is to present multiple problems. Don't bank on expensive named characters. The free power boosts gained with the Allegiances don't support that.

[Sception]

17 minutes ago, Killax said:

I am assumming you guys play terrain on your boards. If you arn't able to hide a 28mm model on foot from LoS or combat due to using your units and terrain to your advantage your doing something wrong.

I sadly have to agree with a lot of what you're saying, despite my love of our big named heroes, but I disagree with this bit, at least when it comes to using your units to block line of sight.  Blocking melee avenues, sure, but not so much for shooting, not in a game of true line of sight.  Not when all our character models, even on foot, are significantly taller than any of our infantry, and our larger units like spirit hosts and black knights are thin and spindly, allowing line of sight straight through them regardless.

Doesn't help that a fair bit of official AoS terrain, particularly the cheaper bits like forests, don't particularly block line of sight, either.

[Burf]

26 minutes ago, Killax said:

What exactly is the counterpoint? 

- All Legions of Nagash armies have acces to a Bravery debuff through standards (and more).
- Why would you have to make a charge to begin with? Your opponent is in a much worse spot.
- Legions of Nagash has acces to the most 'bubble-wrap' units in the game. Not only do you have the flexability to not worry about charges, you can screen him and fly over to whole different locations on the spot.
Unless you have no idea how to play a Terrorgheist well, your not putting a lot of eggs into any particular basket.

What is putting a lot of eggs in one basket is reaching for 440-800 point single characters which are in your interest to stick around due to summonning and Deadly Invocation but you thake over the cheaper units which then cut into all forms of great protection Legions of Nagash units offer.

Lol, you're serious? So your solution to not spending 320 (nice cherrypick btw)-to 800pts on characters is to spend 300pts on a unit and then have it sit, cut off from your forces (and it will be cut off that's the whole point of outflanking it in the first place. ) and not even CHARGE with it? You're paying 300pts to do MAYBE 5 mortal wounds in a turn and you're worried about maybe losing a VLoZD too fast? At best you get a double turn and lose out on a round of combat, at worst you just gave your opponent a free terrorgeist.

Oh snap, you were planning on wasting MORE points on stuff ro outflank weren't you?!?! OMG, yeah, that's the solution right there, commit more points to 'protecting' a 4+ save monster. Were you at least going to charge them? Or was this whole little ball meant to let you do 5 mortal wounds and then get taken off by skyfires?

[Killax]

Just now, Sception said:

I sadly have to agree with a lot of what you're saying, despite my love of our big named heroes, but I disagree with this bit, at least when it comes to using your units to block line of sight.  Blocking melee avenues, sure, but not so much for shooting, not in a game of true line of sight.  Not when all our character models, even on foot, are significantly taller than any of our infantry, and our larger units like spirit hosts and black knights are thin and spindly, allowing line of sight straight through them regardless.

Doesn't help that a fair bit of official AoS terrain, particularly the cheaper bits like forests, don't particularly block line of sight, either.

Well if someone isn't allowing you to hide your Vampire Lord begind a Terrorgheist then there also something is going amiss...

I like the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon's offensive capabilities, they are great. The thing is really that if you have the seperate Vampire Lord and the seperate Terrorgheist it's not like their combined offense get much worse. But what gets much worse for your opponent is finding an awnser to the both of them instead of basically putting them together for display.

[Killax]

5 minutes ago, Burf said:

Lol, you're serious? So your solution to not spending 320 (nice cherrypick btw)-to 800pts on characters is to spend 300pts on a unit and then have it sit, cut off from your forces (and it will be cut off that's the whole point of outflanking it in the first place. ) and not even CHARGE with it? You're paying 300pts to do MAYBE 5 mortal wounds in a turn and you're worried about maybe losing a VLoZD too fast? At best you get a double turn and lose out on a round of combat, at worst you just gave your opponent a free terrorgeist.

Oh snap, you were planning on wasting MORE points on stuff ro outflank weren't you?!?! OMG, yeah, that's the solution right there, commit more points to 'protecting' a 4+ save monster. Were you at least going to charge them? Or was this whole little ball meant to let you do 5 mortal wounds and then get taken off by skyfires?

Ive been serious since page 12, being called a troll, being called the one who's the fool who sees the competitive options within this book.

I am absolutely serious in not spending 300 points (Terrorgheist) in not charging when it has a ranged attack that threatens it's opponent straight out of the ambush. What I think is that you have a lot of stuff to learn about competitive Age of Sigmar. Funnily enough this tactic might even be the best Skyfire awnser available to Legions of Nagash. Because those chickens have bravery 6.

If your not looking for a competitive awnser, feel free to continue your LOL, OMG, replies. But you won't get an awnser from me. Good luck with your games.

[Sception]

11 minutes ago, Killax said:

Well if someone isn't allowing you to hide your Vampire Lord begind a Terrorgheist then there also something is going amiss...

Terrorgheist has thin feet.  Maybe you can block line of sight to an individual character in the hero phase, but unless the terrorgheist is on a big scenic base (in which case you're "modeling for advantage"), you can pretty much always draw line of sight past a terrorgheist to anything behind it in the shooting phase by simply shuffling an inch or two to one side or the other during the movement phase to find a large enough gap between its limbs for a laser to tag some portion of the vampire behind it, which is enough to nail the vamp with a cannonball.

Or, you know, you could just kill the terrorgheist, and then shoot the newly exposed vamp behind it.  One terrorgheist plus one vamp lord isn't all that much cheaper or more durable than a dragonlord on its own would be with either the reroll saves of one, the 4++ vs. shooting, or the -2 to hit at range artefact.

[Killax]

13 minutes ago, Sception said:

Terrorgheist has thin feet.  Maybe you can block line of sight to an individual character in the hero phase, but unless the terrorgheist is on a big scenic base (in which case you're "modeling for advantage"), you can pretty much always draw line of sight past a terrorgheist to anything behind it in the shooting phase by simply shuffling an inch or two to one side or the other during the movement phase to find a large enough gap between its limbs for a laser to tag some portion of the vampire behind it, which is enough to nail the vamp with a cannonball.

Or, you know, you could just kill the terrorgheist, and then shoot the newly exposed vamp behind it.  One terrorgheist plus one vamp lord isn't all that much cheaper or more durable than a dragonlord on its own would be with either the reroll saves of one, the 4++ vs. shooting, or the -2 to hit at range artefact.

I don't see adding basing to models as ever modeling for advantage. 
Feel free to present the list that can shoot Terrorgheists away and have stuff left to instantly deal with the Vampire Lord on top of that.

The fact of the matter is that this discussion pretty muchs falls in the same catagory of random statements that are:
- They just block your Ambush space
- They just stand on your Gravemarker
- They just shoot all your army away

Those statements work on assumptions that actually arn't presented by the game. A Vampire Lord on foot and Terrorgheist never have to be in the same position like a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon is. The difference is that losing a VLoZD has a much bigger impact on the game as losing a Terrorgheist. It is that much more durable because your opponent has to reconsider it's target priority every single turn. 

[Sception]

If the model doesn't block line of sight without scenic basing, but does block line of sight with it, then you have modeled for advantage.

A vampire lord on foot and terrorgheist do have to be in pretty much the same location if you're going to use the terrorgheist to block line of sight to the vampire from more than one or two models on a direct line, especially if we're going to say the enemy units can't just shuffle a bit to one side or the other to shoot around the terrorgheist and hit the vamp lord.  Present a list that can snipe a vampire lord on zombie dragon with the bracer's of black gold.  Any list that can do that can also snipe a terrorgheist plus a regular vampire lord that was relying on it to block line of fire.

I'm not trying to say terrorgheists or vamp lords or outflanking or whatever is bad, I don't think they are bad, but the same arguments made against taking a monster hero also mostly hold against taking a monster and a hero.  Yeah, you get two elements, but each individual element is weaker both offensively and defensively than a single monster hero with a good defensive artefact.

Unless we're talking about mortarchs, which have less wounds than vampire lords on zombie dragons and lack access to good defensive artefacts.  I absolutely agree with you there, they're just too squishy to run, especially when they want to force themselves into the general's seat.

[Ashtyn]

I think there is a definite split between how people are approaching their lists. And tbh that indicates that the book is capable of presenting multiple armies that can synergise.

In terms of small heros or big hero I think it will come down to how effectively we can defend our big boys and our small boys.

At the end of the day, if the opponent is worrying about trying to kill our heroes and is failing then we win the objective game with lots of small regenable units.

I think it will take us some time to really get a feel for how the morghasts and Nagash shape up.

What we can all agree with is that we can grind with the best of them. And hit damn hard in every phase, even in the shooting phase if you build for it.

I'll be playing testing small sacrament lists this week, and I plan on running Arkhan and also trying small hero combinations. Either way I'm excited

[Nullius]

55 minutes ago, Killax said:

Nagash is, yet for 800 points bringing him to 2K is the sub-game of play vs Nagash. Can't say I highly think of it because Archaon (even with 9 fate dice) is in a similar position of the game turning against you if Objectives are in play.

A VLoZD is hitty but not durable. Comming from a Khorne player I see durable in stuff I cannot simply delete with a blob of Bloodletters or Bloodthirster. The re-roll saves would only apply if there is a save at all, which in quite some cases isn't there.

The reality for me is that your better of running at least 2x Vampire Lord on foot (or horse if your cav heavy) and 2x Necromancers. Focus on hard hitting expandable units. Expendable in the sence that your Deadly Invocations and Spells do not go simply offline. Present the problem to your opponent in dual strenght, stacking a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon means the opponent only has to focus on one issue, seperating them on foot and a Terrorgheist means opponents cannot simply awnser one question. Double that and you have what I call a competitive list.

Even Nagash is fun and all but if you want to spend a lot of points into one unit I'd seriously consider 6x Morghast Harbingers over him in Grand Host of Nagash. The principle is the same. Even if your opponent can deal with that unit you have your Vampire Lords and Skeleton Warriors/Summonables left.

The key to victory for horde like armies (which Legions of Nagash does best) is to present multiple problems. Don't bank on expensive named characters. The free power boosts gained with the Allegiances don't support that.

Vampire lords on Horses will get cleared out by shooting before the bottom of turn two. The only character on foot I would run is the Deathmage because of his Look-out-sir save. Both Nagash and the VLOZD can easily have a 2+ rerollable armor save. That is very nearly the most durable any unit can possibly be in the game. More important, with Nagash and to a much lesser (negligible) extent the VLOZD, once they are in the thick of the enemy army they can snipe out support characters and missile units with spells and shooting (not something Morghasts can do, nor can they get a 2+ save, nor can they reroll ones. Also Nagash makes your army immune to battleshock, and reroll ones to hit for all units for the entire game). So both Nagash and the VLOZD are significantly more durable than anything else in the book. With a 2+ rerollable save it will take in the vicinity of 80 rending, wounding hits to knock down Nagash. In that sense he is roughly as durable as two blocks of 40 skeleton warriors. He can also heal every hero phase once he is in the main fight. And if I can’t prevent Nagash from getting charged by a crapload of bloodletters, I think I would have had to have played extremely sloppily. Also he has a 4+ against mortal wounds (that bounces back onto your opponent o. Sixes...and the 6+ death save after that) . I’ve played him with the new rules and he is beastly. Nagash will eat bloodthirsters for breakfast.

[Malakithe]

For me if i take a VLoZD I know it will get targeted by shooting and spells. Thats why you build them via traits and items to be more durable. Before LoN it was already one of the most durable monster heroes and now with crazy legion specific items and traits it can be bonkers hard to take down.

Shroud of Darkness + Overwhelming Dread = lol good luck hitting me!

[smucreo]

Yeah, the way to do it is to present other targets in conjunction with the VLoZD and to have him carry artifacts such as the 4++ one and the one from the Legion of Blood which gives you re-rolls on 1s to save.

[Nullius]

1 minute ago, Malakithe said:

For me if i take a VLoZD I know it will get targeted by shooting and spells. Thats why you build them via traits and items to be more durable. Before LoN it was already one of the most durable monster heroes and now with crazy legion specific items and traits it can be bonkers hard to take down.

Shroud of Darkness + Overwhelming Dread = lol good luck hitting me!

Best reason to take legion of Blood is to give that sucker reroll’s of ones on the armor save. That on top of a healing spell, the chalice, and the healing from close combat means a seriously tough, fast monster.