Let's chat : Stoneclaw Gutstompas

[Arael]

So as the title say, what do u think about our new allegiance ability in firestorm?

A new life into mixed destro list?

I show up my own take on it:

Allegiance: Stoneklaw's Gutstompas

Leaders
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
- General
- Trait: Ravager
- Artefact: Rockeye
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner 
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Ironjawz Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Ironjawz Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Savage Orruks (120)
10 x Savage Orruks (120)
10 x Savage Orruks (120)

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
 

and a second variant with more brute and less warmachine

Allegiance: Stoneklaw's Gutstompas

Leaders
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
- General
- Trait: Ravager
- Artefact: Rockeye
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Ironjawz Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Ironjawz Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Savage Orruks (120)
10 x Savage Orruks (120)
10 x Savage Orruks (120)

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
 

Wich stratagem u think is the best? 

Considering u will have 1/3 chance of getting what u want wich will be ur first pick?

 

[Malakree]

I'd probably go something like 

Allegiance: Stoneklaw's Gutstompas

Leaders
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
- General
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Wurrgog Prophet (140)

Battleline
30 x Savage Orruks (300)
20 x Gitmob Grots (100)
- Bows & Slashas
10 x Orruks (90)
- Choppa & Shield 


Units
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- 2x Gore Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400

I think the weirdnob shaman really comes into his own in none ironjawz lists, why the ****** he isn't a greenskinz wizard rather than IJ I don't know, just because you get that quantity of orruks for the lower price. The Brutes and GG's form a nice solid hitting block with the Brutes aimed at enemy monsters and the GG's+Wyvern focused on mobility. The grots are useful for space denial more than anything else, stopping things like sylvaneth teleports or deepstrikes. The savage Orruks are there to form up around the Weirdnob and give him a casting value 8 Foot of Gork attempt every turn!

I can definately see trying to fit 2 rock lobbas (cheaper) into the list but I would have no idea how. 

[Sheriff]

The one that resurrects my dead arachnarok. Pretty strong bringing back a quarter of your points in a 1k game 

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

The one that resurrects my dead arachnarok. Pretty strong bringing back a quarter of your points in a 1k game 

Man I completely forgot about the Arachnarok Spider, so many good options for a stoneklawz list. And yeah the res is disgusting, can totally see a 20 man brute squad for the occasions when you get that cheese !!!!

[Sheriff]

2 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Man I completely forgot about the Arachnarok Spider, so many good options for a stoneklawz list. And yeah the res is disgusting, can totally see a 20 man brute squad for the occasions when you get that cheese !!!!

Yeah imagine the salty rage from the opponent. Will be epic. 

There is a card in the open war deck that does the same thing. Imagine getting both 

[Arael]

So i can see a pattern in both list

We can say that a core of choices for Stoneklaw could be warboss on wyvern (+1 att to all orruk) warboss with great banner, gore Gruntas, brutes and savage Boyz , with option for artillery or monster and magic support 

[Malakree]

36 minutes ago, Arael said:

So i can see a pattern in both list

We can say that a core of choices for Stoneklaw could be warboss on wyvern (+1 att to all orruk) warboss with great banner, gore Gruntas, brutes and savage Boyz , with option for artillery or monster and magic support 

I built my list primarily around yours, I considered putting an MK in but at that point it's starting to look more like an IJ list just because of the quantity of points he takes up. The Great Waaagh! banner is more situational based on the rest of the list imo. Goregruntas are absolutely amazing for their points value and easily the best boar cav option. Savage boyz equally make up the best battleline orruk unit with massive regiment.

As such I'd say the following things.

• A monstrous general is key, either Wyvern, Arachnarok , or both. A cabbage is probably to expensive for a Gutstompers list.
• Goregruntas are seem important. For their cost they are fantastic and the best of the boar cav for a variety of reasons.
• Warmachines and Monsters are the big advantages of this list over others. You get access to a wonderful variety with no downsides.
• A unit of 10-20 brutes, plus a Warchanter, is an option.  I do worry that it's a tad expensive but their hero slaying potential is great and the res a unit is disgusting on them.
• Magic, Magic, Magic. You get a nice variety of options again and should probably go for AT LEAST 3 spells. for 220 points you can get a Prophet and a Grot Shaman, very tasty.
• You have the option for an Orruk focus if you want. This will involve a Great Waaagh! banner, at least 1 large unit of orruks, probably 30 savage orruks, and a caster who gets a benefit from numbers.
• Having one huge points sink which you can res if you get the chance seems a bit disgusting. see 20 Brutes  
• A more swarm orientated approach is available which would let you run more of a casting variation. 
• Really limited on battalions.

Allegiance: Stoneklaw's Gutstompas

Leaders
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
Arachnarok Spider With Grot Shaman (280)
- General
Wurrgog Prophet (140)
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Bows & Slashas 
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Bows & Slashas 
10 x Orruks (90)
- Choppa and Shield

Behemoths
Aleguzzler Gargant (170)

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400


This would be a much more grot focused army with a ton of  magic (with 4 spells a turn), warmachines and monsters. There is the option to instead go with a second gargant using a list like

Battleline
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Bows & Slashas 
10 x Savage Orruks (120)
10 x Orruks (90)
- Choppa & Shield 

Behemoths
Aleguzzler Gargant (170)
Aleguzzler Gargant (170)

This gets you a 2nd gargant.

[Sheriff]

Arachnarok is a sucky general it seems, better as a hero supporting spider riders. Gordrak seems ideal, in comparison, as he helps all destruction units when they charge (which is super good with squig riders as it doubles their likelihood of double-damage roll I think). 

[Malakree]

Oh and for any TRUE ****** out there, there is this monstrosity.

Allegiance: Stoneklaw's Gutstompas

Leaders
Wurrgog Prophet (140)
Arachnarok Spider With Grot Shaman (280)
- General
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)

Battleline
30 x Savage Orruks (300)
20 x Gitmob Grots (100)
- Bows & Slashas 
20 x Gitmob Grots (100)
- Bows & Slashas 

Behemoths
Aleguzzler Gargant (170)

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
 

Now, why is this so disgusting you might be thinking. Maybe like sheriff you're thinking that the Cabbage should be the general. Well to you I present the following argument.

For the people who looked at a 460 point cabbage and went "I Wish I could have 2 of those"

[Arael]

7 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

Arachnarok is a sucky general it seems, better as a hero supporting spider riders. Gordrak seems ideal, in comparison, as he helps all destruction units when they charge (which is super good with squig riders as it doubles their likelihood of double-damage roll I think). 

yep but w/o battalion gordrakk will buff just 1 unit

[Arael]

2 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Oh and for any TRUE ****** out there, there is this monstrosity.

Allegiance: Stoneklaw's Gutstompas

Leaders
Wurrgog Prophet (140)
Arachnarok Spider With Grot Shaman (280)
- General
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)

Battleline
30 x Savage Orruks (300)
20 x Gitmob Grots (100)
- Bows & Slashas 
20 x Gitmob Grots (100)
- Bows & Slashas 

Behemoths
Aleguzzler Gargant (170)

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
 

Now, why is this so disgusting you might be thinking. Maybe like sheriff you're thinking that the Cabbage should be the general. Well to you I present the following argument.

For the people who looked at a 460 point cabbage and went "I Wish I could have 2 of those"

I'm wondering don't u think this stratagem will need reinforcement point?

[Malakree]

Just now, Arael said:

I'm wondering don't u think this stratagem will need reinforcement point?

It's a question that I have asked of them. I don't know if it's been FAQ'd yet. I kinda got caught up in the moment based on sheriffs earlier comment about bringing back the arachnarok.

[Sheriff]

12 minutes ago, Arael said:

I'm wondering don't u think this stratagem will need reinforcement point?

Surely not given that you also don't reinforcements for the open war card equivalent (exact same ability). Reinforcement points for something that has a tiny possibility of occurring... clearly not the intended use of it. 

[Nico]

There is one ability that summons a unit and doesn’t require Reinforcement Points and that rule spells that out expressly - Dark Apotheosis for Slaves to Derping. Absent such wording you need the points. Bringing back a massive unit for free would normally be a free win.

[Arael]

9 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

Surely not given that you also don't reinforcements for the open war card equivalent (exact same ability). Reinforcement points for something that has a tiny possibility of occurring... clearly not the intended use of it. 

well not that tiny,  there are 12 result 1 is reinforcement and 1 is ur choice and u trowh 2 times on the table so 1/3 of having reinforcement and playing with 4-500 points more then ur adversary. 

[Malakree]

Just now, Nico said:

There is one ability that summons a unit and doesn’t require Reinforcement Points and that rule spells that out expressly - Dark Apotheosis for Slaves to Derping. Absent such wording you need the points. Bringing back a massive unit for free would normally be a free win.

Aye when I saw it originally that was my understanding. Classic case of zomg so good, herp derp forgot rules.

I asked on the FB about it since you can't guarantee it, so don't want to save reinforcement points, but could potentially get reinforcements on both d66 rolls essentially wasting your stratagem. There's also the thing about 

Quote

 

 We’d recommend taking at least one full-sized regiment of 20 Cave Squigs.

This isn’t just for intimidation purposes – get lucky, and you could find yourself rolling the Reinforcements stratagem, allowing you to set up your “Squig Herd of Death” all over again after it dies!

 

Which seems to imply that WAS their intent.

[Malakree]

There is a ~30% chance of you getting reinforcements in any given game. Maths for that

• 2 of your 12 options are reinforcements.
• So 10/12 to NOT get it ~83% per roll
• You roll twice, so (10/12 * 10/12) or (100/144) ~70%
• The chance that you WILL get it is then the rest of the result ie. 30%

[Sheriff]

12 minutes ago, Nico said:

There is one ability that summons a unit and doesn’t require Reinforcement Points and that rule spells that out expressly - Dark Apotheosis for Slaves to Derping. Absent such wording you need the points. Bringing back a massive unit for free would normally be a free win.

So we can't use the open war reinforcement card without saving reinforcement points in case it comes up?

[Arael]

1 minute ago, Malakree said:

There is a ~30% chance of you getting reinforcements in any given game. Maths for that

• 2 of your 12 options are reinforcements.
• So 10/12 to NOT get it ~83% per roll
• You roll twice, so (10/12 * 10/12) or (100/144) ~70%
• The chance that you WILL get it is then the rest of the result ie. 30%

yep one third as I was saying.

Apart from reinforcement there are a lot of good stratagems

night attack: all shooting attack reduced to range 12 in 1st round

ambush : free aip for one of ur unit

forced March : 1 free movement phase for d3 unit

these 3 seems really good to me especially ambush (15 Brutes in ur deployment zone first turn)

 

[Ar-Pharazôn]

Unrelated to the army-building,  but Stoneklaw's backstory actually helped me convince my friend to make the jump into Warhammer. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

I’d say that if you’re going with a primarily mixed Orruk force you’ve got to with either of the Greenskin Warbosses they provide synergy with all Orruk units. 

I wouldn’t take more than one Moonclan shaman in fact a Wurrgog Prophet is probably a better choice than two of them.   A two spell 6 wound wizard with 5-7 attacks and -1 to hit in combat can be quite a versatile unit. 

[Arbaal]

can you tell me where exactly is written that the "reinforcement"  stratagem does not require to keep the reinforcement points?

[PlasticCraic]

Just because putting aside reinforcement points is bad value here doesn't mean that you don't have to pay them - see for example the Ardfist.  Some things are better than others in Matched Play, and this is a straight up bad option. 

You have to pay points.  Don't take it.

Beyond that, how often do people anticipate that Firestorm allegiance abilities will actually be allowed at tournaments?

Here in Australia they are already banned at CanCon, and from listening to Garagehammer that seems to be the way they are going in the US too.

[Ollie Grimwood]

10 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

 

Beyond that, how often do people anticipate that Firestorm allegiance abilities will actually be allowed at tournaments?

Here in Australia they are already banned at CanCon, and from listening to Garagehammer that seems to be the way they are going in the US too.

Very disappointed to hear that.  Since they’ve been faq’d there is no issue with them and they encourage interesting mixed forces. 

Seems a bit knee ****** to me there’s no way enough data yet to support such an action. 

[Arael]

1 hour ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Very disappointed to hear that.  Since they’ve been faq’d there is no issue with them and they encourage interesting mixed forces. 

Seems a bit knee ****** to me there’s no way enough data yet to support such an action. 

Here in Italy they are allowed , just boycott the tournament that doesn't allow them, it's an homerule...