Is Devotee of Torment OP?

[Squirrelmaster]

Honestly I'd be tempted to bet actual money on Devotee of Torment (one of the new Slaanesh command traits) being majorly nerfed in the next FAQ/errata.

Not so much "it's completely overpowered", more "all the best ways to use it feel abusive, and will probably confuse/anger your opponent".

Wondering if that's just me…

[daedalus81]

I don't see anything that makes it problematic.

[Blood&skulls]

What are the details of it? 

[Squirrelmaster]

Quote

The general can pile in 6" instead of 3". in addition, the general can be selected to attack in the combat phase if they are within 6" of an enemy unit, rather than only 3".

So:

1. Your general will never charge, because running to within 6" is always going to be faster. (2D6, or D6 + 6?)
2. You can see whether your run roll is far enough to get in combat range, if not adjust your movement phase accordingly (hang back, move out to the flank, run away, whatever). You don't end up exposing yourself to counter-charge if you don't roll high enough.
3. You can retreat from combat and end your move 4" to 6" away, then pile in and attack in the same turn, without needing to charge.
4. You can leave your general sitting 4" to 6" away while you activate all your other units fight, leaving the general until last, because your opponent won't be able to select units to attack the general with until after you have selected your general to attack (they need to be within 3" but aren't; you only need to be within 6" and are).
5. You completely bypass Empire Handgunner's Pipers, and any other rule that triggers when you end a charge within 3".
6. Likewise, you can bypass anything that triggers if you're within 3" at the start of a combat phase.
7. And stuff like rival Daemon Princes of Slaanesh's ability, since you aren't activating a unit within 3".

It just seems to bypass so many core mechanics, and ends up feeling abusive even if it's not that OP.

[Nico]

You do know that Yhettees have had this ability for years. 

It needs to be good given that Slaanesh units are so-so, Slaves units are actively terrible and Slaanesh have zero long range shooting. It's very strong as you say - the retreat pile in combo is a thing of beauty.

Now I want to stand my Daemonic Power Exalted GD of Slaanesh 4" from a unit of 30 Freeguild Guard (with Daemonic Power on), then laugh several times - them execute them all.

[Tzaangor Management]

It doesn't seem too overpowered to me, as there is a risk involved in going last, where your opponent could potentially remove casualties in such a way that you can't pile in at the end of the turn, or leave a unit 1" behind the target of the general, which could then pile in at the end having itself not been relevent until the general moves into range.

You would also need to commit more units to combat than your opponent to ensure that you go last in your own combat phase, which puts a lot of eggs in a general shaped basket.

It's definitely an interesting and potentially powerful ability, but I wouldn't worry unduly about it being overpowered, I think it'll take some finesse to use it really well.

[Squirrelmaster]

@Nico unless there was an FAQ that I missed, Yhettess still needed to be within 3" (or have charged that turn) in order to pile-in and attack — so being able to move 6" when they did was never a big deal. Or maybe I've just been playing it wrong?

[Squirrelmaster]

@Tzaangor Management The point I'm getting at is that if (for example) you have a unit of 30 Daemonettes charge a block of spearmen while your Keeper of Secrets charges the enemy general-on-dragon, you have to decide which combat you are striking first in — while your opponent will get to strike first in the other. Activate the Keeper first, and the spearmen will whittle down your Daemonettes before they get to strike, and vice-versa.

But stick your keeper down 5" from the dragon while your daemonettes charge the spearmen and activate first, your opponent will have no choice but to activate the spearmen next, allowing your Keeper to also go first against the dragon when it does attack (even though admittedly the dragon will then strike back after you have done so).

So I'm thinking of completely unrelated combats happening in different parts of the board, simply in terms of who goes first.

Of course, it may also sometimes be the case that you can avoid piling in your general until after the enemy has gone, completely protecting your general from being attacked that turn, but as you say that's going to be a bit more situational.

[Screwface]

53 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

@Nico unless there was an FAQ that I missed, Yhettess still needed to be within 3" (or have charged that turn) in order to pile-in and attack — so being able to move 6" when they did was never a big deal. Or maybe I've just been playing it wrong?

You've been playing it wrong.

[Tzaangor Management]

@Squirrelmaster I do take your point, I think it's potentially powerful if used well, but is it any more powerful than Destiny Dice for example?

I'm still waiting to pick up my copy of GHB17 (it's now in the sorting office, after Royal Mail delivered it at literally the only time I haven't been at home for the last four days ), so have not read through all the abilities as yet, but it doesn't sound off the chart to me, there are still some ways to counter it. Will be very interested to see how it all shakes out though and would at least be a nice change if we started seeing Slanesh sweep the boards!

[Naflem]

16 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

@Nico unless there was an FAQ that I missed, Yhettess still needed to be within 3" (or have charged that turn) in order to pile-in and attack — so being able to move 6" when they did was never a big deal. Or maybe I've just been playing it wrong?

 

[Squirrelmaster]

Yeah, I realize I was looking at the old compendium warscroll that's out of date now. I guess I haven't actually played against yhettis in… a while.

[daedalus81]

16 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Spoiler

 

@Tzaangor Management The point I'm getting at is that if (for example) you have a unit of 30 Daemonettes charge a block of spearmen while your Keeper of Secrets charges the enemy general-on-dragon, you have to decide which combat you are striking first in — while your opponent will get to strike first in the other. Activate the Keeper first, and the spearmen will whittle down your Daemonettes before they get to strike, and vice-versa.

But stick your keeper down 5" from the dragon while your daemonettes charge the spearmen and activate first, your opponent will have no choice but to activate the spearmen next, allowing your Keeper to also go first against the dragon when it does attack (even though admittedly the dragon will then strike back after you have done so).

So I'm thinking of completely unrelated combats happening in different parts of the board, simply in terms of who goes first.

Of course, it may also sometimes be the case that you can avoid piling in your general until after the enemy has gone, completely protecting your general from being attacked that turn, but as you say that's going to be a bit more situational.

 

 

That's not terribly different from a unit having an "always strikes first" ability.

[Nico]

Yes - that's quite a good analogy - of course it doesn't work when you get charged.

[swarmofseals]

As a non Slaanesh player, I think this rule is really cool and you are coming up with some fantastic ways of using it. Not abusive at all, especially given that existing warscrolls can already do this AND it makes a great representation of preternatural quickness. If the in game effect didn't fit with the flavor of the ability then it might feel more abusive, but to me it seems to fit perfectly.

[SuperHappyTime]

It's 1 model... 1, not the whole army.

[Cerlin]

The new Slaneshi abilities are all very fluffy and useful and this one feels the same.

I think for every player that uses this in a cheezy way will be another who overextends and gets their hero shreked unsupported. Seems fair to me.

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, SuperHappyTime said:

It's 1 model... 1, not the whole army.

Shhh. That is entirely too reasonable of you to say .

[Squirrelmaster]

For the record, I'm not complaining. It's just that my current army is Slaanesh Daemons and as soon as I started imagining the possible ways to use this trait, I started imagining my opponents getting upset and feeling like I was a rules-lawyering git.

It's not even that it's especially powerful, just that people I've played against already seem to struggle with the idea that pile-in moves can be more nuanced than just "shove them all in there". I have to keep reminding people that pile-in is towards the nearest model, not the nearest model in the unit you are already fighting or the nearest model that you charged (or that charged you) that turn. I've seen many opponents attempt to use pile-in to move models that were already in base-to-base (in order to get more models from behind in), and the idea of piling-in to a unit that you weren't already within 3" of seems to cause no end of confusion.

I don't exactly play in a "competitive" environment.

[SuperHappyTime]

1 hour ago, Squirrelmaster said:

For the record, I'm not complaining. It's just that my current army is Slaanesh Daemons and as soon as I started imagining the possible ways to use this trait, I started imagining my opponents getting upset and feeling like I was a rules-lawyering git.

Okay, I get this.

The Core rules wording is: "If one side completes all its attacks first, then the other side completes all of its remaining attacks, one unit after another." This would mean that if all of my attacks are finished, then your General can attack me but I don't get to attack it back, even though it would then fall inside the 3" range of my own models.

I don't see that in the FAQs either.

Past that, it's up to you. Be "That Guy" and be a rules lawyer, or be a Nice Guy and let your opponent attack back. I trust you to know what to do depending on the opponent. At worse, give them the first turn attack back and tell them what's going to happen on following turns.

[Sleboda]

Another consideration that may help you be at ease wirh using this ability -

Games often introduce new options. You use them. Your opponents are caught out and lose. Then they adjust and counter you. Then you try to counter the counter. And so on. 

 

It's fun! 

Facing new challenges and overcoming them is enjoyable.

Your opponents should actually want you to get better so that they are pushed to improve as well.

 

[Tanka]

Its a good ability. Cartainly not so powerful to require a nerf. Its why I run 6 units of 3 yhetees.