GH2017 - Bonesplitterz Discussion

[broche]

double edge sword for bonesplitterz is the right term i guess.

Kop ruk just became lot better (casting bonus will rule with new unbind rule). Also the artefact that give +1 to unbind and add 6'' on a wurgog i think will become a staple. 

So i think Bonesplitterz have the right tools to fare better than average in AoS 2. The new look out sir will help their weak wizard get into casting range and survive longer, and they have access to casting bonus (kop ruk, wardock and boney bitz)

 

[PlasticCraic]

@broche unfortunately the artefact you are talking about (Mystic Waaagh! Paint) does not add 6".  .

It changes the range to 24". 

So it is strictly worse than it was before. 

I was thinking I might email this to the FAQ team, because otherwise I think we'll get forgotten about.

[broche]

yeah you're right i reread it after, i tough it was +6, so sad

 

[Kanamorf]

It makes it harder to get the full set of spells off in one turn, against most armies your going to get 2-3 contested rolls, against some every roll will be contested. Its not a shutdown of the phase its just now a competition. Nagash just became more of a pain

[Pedro_L]

What's everyone thinking so far (and I suppose this is the point to stress - we still don't have the full picture [e.g. matched play scenario changes], but speculation is fun) about our prospects in the new AoS2 and, particularly, about potential builds? 

As Malakree and others have said elsewhere, cheap but fast chaff (Goblin Wolf Chariots) might have just become indispensable for shutting down enemy shooting, and might fill out ally slots. 

Are Arrow Boyz now surplus to requirements? 

Losing Mystic Shield's +1 save takes away pretty much the only save buff we had available. Does that mean we ought to invest in more boots on the ground to compensate?

 

[GriinWan]

Havn`t played much with bonesplitterz yet, just about 10 games or so.

But I think that mystic shield redesign is very good for us - tough saves are one of the worst things for most of our army and with this redesign there should be far less 2+ with rerolling 1s on the tables. 

Unbinding changes are interesting and I see one pretty advantage with savage lore of magic - Hand of Gork (or maybe Mork) has infinite range so we can cast it from the safe distance.

[broche]

4 hours ago, Pedro_L said:

What's everyone thinking so far (and I suppose this is the point to stress - we still don't have the full picture [e.g. matched play scenario changes], but speculation is fun) about our prospects in the new AoS2 and, particularly, about potential builds? 

As Malakree and others have said elsewhere, cheap but fast chaff (Goblin Wolf Chariots) might have just become indispensable for shutting down enemy shooting, and might fill out ally slots. 

Are Arrow Boyz now surplus to requirements? 

Losing Mystic Shield's +1 save takes away pretty much the only save buff we had available. Does that mean we ought to invest in more boots on the ground to compensate?

 

I think you'll see less Arrowboys spam. Arrowboys will still be a good units I think, so maybe you'll see 1-2 squad of 30 per army. But you might start to see more Morboys (in kop ruk), Boar Maniak, Spearman in a kunnin ruk. For example, something like:

wurgog prophet

maniack weirnob

maniack weirnob

wardok

Savage big boss

30 spearman

30 arrowboys

10 maniak

6 bigstabbas

kunnin ruk

 

Personnaly with command point mechanic, and depending on point drop for bataillon, i know i'll keep my wyvern to try to hit a waaaghh per game with some Morboys. I'll probably fit a fungoid shaman as well. 

Bonesplitterz biggest asset is Hand of gork, and i think it will stay true in the new edition with new dispel rule, since it have no line of sight/range limitation

[bonzai]

1 hour ago, broche said:

I think you'll see less Arrowboys spam. Arrowboys will still be a good units I think, so maybe you'll see 1-2 squad of 30 per army. But you might start to see more Morboys (in kop ruk), Boar Maniak, Spearman in a kunnin ruk. For example, something like:

wurgog prophet

maniack weirnob

maniack weirnob

wardok

Savage big boss

30 spearman

30 arrowboys

10 maniak

6 bigstabbas

kunnin ruk

 

Personnaly with command point mechanic, and depending on point drop for bataillon, i know i'll keep my wyvern to try to hit a waaaghh per game with some Morboys. I'll probably fit a fungoid shaman as well. 

Bonesplitterz biggest asset is Hand of gork, and i think it will stay true in the new edition with new dispel rule, since it have no line of sight/range limitation

That's actually an interesting point.... in theory we can now use allied command abilities as well.  An Orruk Warboss ally may now be an auto include! 

The cave shaman is a lot better now too. Combine it's command ability, on the double, and hand of gork. Boars now can move/run/fly 24 inches, then charge with their +2 bonus. This will be great for tying up ranged units. With look out sir, it has a -2 to be hit, so its more survivable. 

It's going to be interesting to play around with.

[Skabnoze]

Assuming that the wording for the Fungus Shaman command ability changes so that he can use it if he is not the general then I think one of the most intriguing uses for it will be with Big Stabbas.  That unit is quite dangerous and if we can yank it out of combat and charge another target then that could get nasty.

[PlasticCraic]

22 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Assuming that the wording for the Fungus Shaman command ability changes so that he can use it if he is not the general then I think one of the most intriguing uses for it will be with Big Stabbas.  That unit is quite dangerous and if we can yank it out of combat and charge another target then that could get nasty.

Or - just make him your general.  You can still use the CAs from your Savage Big Boss / Wurgogg Prophet / Warboss even if they are not your general, so just make the one with the stipulation your general?

I think the bigger problem is whether you can use CAs from Allies...I'm guessing not, but let's wait and see.

[Skabnoze]

31 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

I think the bigger problem is whether you can use CAs from Allies...I'm guessing not, but let's wait and see.

I think that you will be able to.  Most command abilities are keyword restricted in some way and my guess is that you will just need the keywords to line up.  That is pure speculation on my part though.

[PlasticCraic]

6 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I think that you will be able to.  Most command abilities are keyword restricted in some way and my guess is that you will just need the keywords to line up.  That is pure speculation on my part though.

Good point on the keywords, I'm a bit more optimistic after reading that!

[Skabnoze]

8 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Good point on the keywords, I'm a bit more optimistic after reading that!

Yeah.  In effect right now there are very few command abilities that work outside of their allegiance.  The ones that do seem to be some of the older ones in the game.  So there does not seem to be a huge issue with allied command abilities.

But it is also worth considering that GW most likely has had to do a global re-evaluation of the command abilities in the game and they will most certainly change some of them in an errata or update when the new edition and GHB comes out.  So it is possible that they change them all so that all command abilities are keyword locked into their allegiances.

[meet.the.doctor]

On 5/23/2018 at 11:32 AM, Pedro_L said:

What's everyone thinking so far (and I suppose this is the point to stress - we still don't have the full picture [e.g. matched play scenario changes], but speculation is fun) about our prospects in the new AoS2 and, particularly, about potential builds? 

As Malakree and others have said elsewhere, cheap but fast chaff (Goblin Wolf Chariots) might have just become indispensable for shutting down enemy shooting, and might fill out ally slots. 

Are Arrow Boyz now surplus to requirements? 

Losing Mystic Shield's +1 save takes away pretty much the only save buff we had available. Does that mean we ought to invest in more boots on the ground to compensate?

 

Unfortunatelly we cannot ally with Gitmib Grots. 

[Towenaar]

With the changes to shooting and magic, could the Kop Rukk overtake the Kunnin Rukk in terms of effectiveness? Having 4 Wardokks on the table with a Wurrgog Prophet is a lot of spells, plus the Wardokks each get a free mystic shield on a Ritual Dance roll of 3/4 that they can cast on big units of Morboys. I think it could be the way to go, just not sure on whether to include an allied Arachnarok Spider for more magic (and a sacrificial monster for the Morboys) or a Colossal Giant Squig for killing power. Hopefully we'll get a faction focus soon to give us some more info.

[PlasticCraic]

I think the big problem with the Kopp Rukk is that trying to build a melee army with an absence of rend (or exploding mortals) is a fools errand.

They don't even have volume of attacks with those large bases and 1" range. 

The only way I could see that working is if there's a substantial points drop in each of Morr Boys, Wardokks and the Battalion, allowing you also to fit in multiple units of Big Stabbas, and some cavalry to prevent them being shot off. 

Which would be a decent outcome imo.

[broche]

i think something like this could be decent: hopefully there will be some point drop and you can fit a Big boss as well.

wardock	100
wardock	100
wardock	100
wurgog	140
30 morboys	300
10 morboys	120
30 arrowboys	360
6 big stabba	300
5 boar	120
kop ruk	200
darkfoot warclan	160

[Skabnoze]

I think that it is worth pointing out that the Kunnin Rukk is a pretty flexible battalion and not just something for Arrow Boyz.  Arrow Boyz are all you see because the arrowboyz warscroll is probably a bit better than it should have been, arrowboyz are battleline, arrowboyz are very well costed compared to other savage orcs, shooting is potentially the strongest phase in the game, and all of the buffs available in the battalion work for Arrowboyz shooting.  It is pretty much the perfect storm of synergy, cost, etc that led to the rise of the competitive Kunnin Rukk arrow-storm army list.

When I say that shooting is potentially the strongest phase in the game what I mean is that shooting allows you the longest effective threat range, you can usually bring every weapon in the unit to bear (unlike close combat), and there is generally no reciprocal attacks from the enemy.  The usual balancing act to shooting is that it is not overly plentiful in the game and most units are not very great at shooting compared to punching people in the face.  But, if you can overcome those negatives then shooting becomes very strong and that is what you see with the premiere shooting units in the game.

But to my original point about the Kunnin Rukk - the battalion is really quite flexible in that it allows you to include savage orcs and to give extra movement or make units fight in combat for an extra round.  Also the Boss' command ability works for any attacks whether ranged or shooting.  Reading the battletome it really feels to me that the arrow-storm build was an accidental side effect that GW never expected because it really seems like the intention was to have something really flexible and hence the "kunnin" name.

Depending on how abilities and costs come out in the GHB 18 it is not unlikely that the Kunnin Rukk remains one of the best battalions in the army - but people use it in a different way than now. 

[bonzai]

10 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I think the big problem with the Kopp Rukk is that trying to build a melee army with an absence of rend (or exploding mortals) is a fools errand.

They don't even have volume of attacks with those large bases and 1" range. 

The only way I could see that working is if there's a substantial points drop in each of Morr Boys, Wardokks and the Battalion, allowing you also to fit in multiple units of Big Stabbas, and some cavalry to prevent them being shot off. 

Which would be a decent outcome imo.

I think the formation costs are the biggest issue. A drakkfoots 360 points in formation costs is a big hit.  It needs to be 100 points cheaper at a minimum. Most of the formation costs could use a good going over. 

As for rend/mortal wounds, keep in mind that that they will have 4 casters, and each will have mortal wound output through spells and artifacts. Even more so now with the universal options.

[broche]

Arrowboys are rend 1 agains monster, BS are rend 2, and also let's not forget every army loose mystic shield, it's a huge gain for low rend army. A 3+ reroll 1 save is quite easy to saturate even with 0 rend.

[Towenaar]

I've just always seen the Kunnin Rukk as too easy to mitigate. Once the Big Boss dies you lose the effect, so the enemy has an obvious target for spells and shooting. With the Kop Rukk the enemy has to kill 2 or 3 Wardokks to neutralize the +1 wound for the Morboys. The thing I like about Morboys is they remain effective down to the last Orruk, with Archers and regular Orruks when you drop them below 20 their effectiveness drops a lot. The Drakkfoot Warclan is a bit too expensive though, and not really needed as the spell granted is the same as the Wurrgog Prophets command ability (usable multiple times with command points in the new edition).  This is the list I was thinking of running:

Spoiler

Leaders
Wurrgog Prophet (140)
- General
- Trait: Squirmy Warpaint
- Artefact: Glowin Tattooz
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Hand of Gork or Mork
Wardokk (100)
- Artefact: Big Wurrgog Mask
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Squiggly Curse
Wardokk (100)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Brutal Beast Spirits
Wardokk (100)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Brutal Beast Spirits
Maniak Weirdnob (120)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Arachnarok Spider With Grot Shaman (280)
- Allies

Battleline
30 x Savage Orruk Morboys (300)
30 x Savage Orruk Morboys (300)
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (360)

Battalions
Kop Rukk (200)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 280 / 400
Wounds: 221

Gives me 8(!) spells each hero phase, lots of dangerous targets, will probably need to wait to see what the new spells are before judging it in full.

[bonzai]

17 minutes ago, Towenaar said:

I've just always seen the Kunnin Rukk as too easy to mitigate. Once the Big Boss dies you lose the effect, so the enemy has an obvious target for spells and shooting. With the Kop Rukk the enemy has to kill 2 or 3 Wardokks to neutralize the +1 wound for the Morboys. The thing I like about Morboys is they remain effective down to the last Orruk, with Archers and regular Orruks when you drop them below 20 their effectiveness drops a lot. The Drakkfoot Warclan is a bit too expensive though, and not really needed as the spell granted is the same as the Wurrgog Prophets command ability (usable multiple times with command points in the new edition).  This is the list I was thinking of running:

  Hide contents

Leaders
Wurrgog Prophet (140)
- General
- Trait: Squirmy Warpaint
- Artefact: Glowin Tattooz
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Hand of Gork or Mork
Wardokk (100)
- Artefact: Big Wurrgog Mask
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Squiggly Curse
Wardokk (100)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Brutal Beast Spirits
Wardokk (100)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Brutal Beast Spirits
Maniak Weirdnob (120)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Arachnarok Spider With Grot Shaman (280)
- Allies

Battleline
30 x Savage Orruk Morboys (300)
30 x Savage Orruk Morboys (300)
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (360)

Battalions
Kop Rukk (200)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 280 / 400
Wounds: 221

Gives me 8(!) spells each hero phase, lots of dangerous targets, will probably need to wait to see what the new spells are before judging it in full.

The spell is great, but don't discount doubles always succeeding and the save vs spells. Its always been my favorite Battalion. Versus armies like Tzeentch or lords of the Sacrement,  having a 6+ to ignore the spell and then the 6+ to ignore any mortal wounds can add up. The doubles bonus is nice, and with all the inherit bonus to cast you can grab, it is going to be hard to fail a casting roll. I'm going to be interested in how the spell portal will work. With our mortal wound spells, it could be brutal. The dispel range getting upped will hurt a bit, but I'll have at least a +3 bonus (Kopp Rukk + rogue Idol) to cast plus any weird dances I roll to help compensate.

I am hoping for a hundred point reduction to the Drakkfoot. I already know what I would spend the points on.  

Anyone else bummed that there has been no Bonesplitterz faction focus?

[Malakithe]

It sounds like battalions will get points changes across the board so it will be hard to judge any real lists for now. But the Kop Rukk might be the only contender that can effectively shut down Tzeentch thanks to the new 30" unbind. Maxing out on wizards for magic heavy factions will be key and the new meta it looks like. Especially since the Tzeentch summoning mechanic involves points generated from successful casts. Players are already talking about 6 wizard heroes plus Pink Horrors for maxing wizards. Thats a potential of 10 spells per hero phase I think depending on hero choice.

Bonespitterz, Death, and Tzeentch are massive magic armies so it might be good to capitalize on that. 

The only issue with Kop Rukk is lack of rend...thats like throwing stones against a steel plate(i.e. stromcast, sylvaneth). Plenty of magic and unbinding, no actual damage against high armor stacking factions

Edit: forget what I said about countering Tzeentch lol just read this....wow..

Interesting reveal from the Podcast about summoning.

Goes up to 36 points for Tzeentch to get a Lord of Change at that high number.

You get a point for every spell cast that isn't Unbound.

You also get a point for every spell cast by your enemy. (That should be fun.)

I think they also made mention of just casting spells even if you don' have a target just so you can gain points?

[PlasticCraic]

@Malakithe yep they did mention that.  So turn 1 you could succesfully cast say Arcane Bolt, then go to select a target...ok there are none in range, but I still get my summoning point for casting the spell even if I don't do anything with that spell.  Because first you cast, then you select a target.

TBH I've pulled the same trick with my Butcher to trigger his healing.

And I think they said 36 gets you the Exalted version..."basic" LoC will be less.

[Skabnoze]

Bear in mind that GW is currently in full marketing hype-building mode.  They are going to trot out every good thing such as nifty new abilities, cost reductions, etc to get people excited for the new edition - but what they probably won’t show is the balancing act like point increases or anything that leads to disappointment or less excitement.

Things might seem like they are just crazy for some of the factions they have teased, and destruction really so far has not had much teased which can suck, but i would not cast judgement or freak out too much until we see the full picture.  Maybe things work out great for destruction and the game as a whole is all-around better.  Or maybe the sky does collapse onto our heads and the game ends up as a dumpster fire.  But I think we have seen so little of the picture that we honestly have no idea.