Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[DantePQ]

Also worth noting that with Lifetakers and especially Blood Stalkers Mortahi CA isn't very good with shooting .Out of 2 units of 5 Blood Stalkers they will get only 10 extra shots with 1 damage. 

And to take full advantage of her CA in Melee she must be close which is risky. 

That’s another reason why she isn't wroth those absurd amount of points. Sadly 

After digesting all the info it seems that horde armies could be a thing 

Out of all New stuff (in terms of minis) only Lifetakers and Heartrenders seem pretty good. Snake ladies are pretty bad. Of course everything can be super buffed but why buff Blood Sisters when you can buff Witch Elves with 4 attacks each. 

I am disappointed that our shooting is so weak as it makes Morathi even weaker choice. 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

lol too expensive? 480 is fine for a super named character like that. Look at some of the other super heroes. Her points is fine when you combine all the other crazy bonuses. Look at the 'new' Prince fancypants for Death. He is 480pts and is workable in certain cases and is no where near on the level giant snake lady is

Agreed. And also can we stop judging stuff on its ‘viability’ as if every game is the worst case scenario against the thoughest opponent ever?

its a rediculous standard to test everything against and means you will only field something if it’s without a doubt the absolute best??? That’s a ridiculous point of view for me and the b*tching feels more like pessimism than any kind of constructive discussion on how to best field an army. 

also reason enough to leave this thread  for a bit. 

[Burf]

13 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Mindrazor specifically says "a lower Bravery characteristic" - doesn't that indicate the warscroll value without any modifiers?

Depends on the modifier. Death's modifiers all actually change the characteristic for example.

[Spiny Norman]

Can't take people serious who complain about 480 points for Morathi...

[boots468]

Yeah, even for 480 I'm worried about facing her! She can easily snipe your support characters with spells, non-shooting armies will struggle to get to her to force the transformation and she seems like a great buffing character too. Plus, if the situation calls for it, she can be an absolute combat terror - all the army wide re-roll 1 stuff is even better on her decent attack profiles.

She might not end up as the optimal choice, but she in no way looks anywhere near unviable - especially with the current wording on wound allocation and the 6++ ward save she gets.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

I'm over all quite happy with the DoK. Only the life takers have disappointed me, but there only 80pts for 5 so they can have some use. Just heartrenders are better for the same pts (lifetakers have a horde cost but 20 in one squad is silly haha!!!!) 

My army will probably have 1 block of 10-15 blood sisters two units of stalkers and then the rest will be heartrenders (and my usual old stuff too)

I will also keep my allied sorceress in just for the -1 to hit, then combined with enfeebling foe -1 to wound and then -1 to hit in shooting, I'll try manipulate as many modifiers that I can. 

[Burf]

13 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Also worth noting that with Lifetakers and especially Blood Stalkers Mortahi CA isn't very good with shooting .Out of 2 units of 5 Blood Stalkers they will get only 10 extra shots with 1 damage. 

And to take full advantage of her CA in Melee she must be close which is risky. 

That’s another reason why she isn't wroth those absurd amount of points. Sadly 

After digesting all the info it seems that horde armies could be a thing 

Out of all New stuff (in terms of minis) only Lifetakers and Heartrenders seem pretty good. Snake ladies are pretty bad. Of course everything can be super buffed but why buff Blood Sisters when you can buff Witch Elves with 4 attacks each. 

I am disappointed that our shooting is so weak as it makes Morathi even weaker choice. 

It's a 14" range and the hero phase. Since you're buffing hordes at the moment, it takes 0 effort to snake a line of WE back to clip her radius and then bamf forward. Play the double turn right and you could delete an entire army with this. 2 units of Blood Stalkers or Heartrenders would even be enough to hugely benefit at a frankly paltry cost.

As for the snake ladies, the blood sisters are solid, fast benefit heavily from buffs and aren't too terribly costly, they get a discount for maxing them out and don't NEED the buffs they way WEs do, who are largely useless without at least a handful of bonuses, so you'd be looking at a decent unit. Maybe not as good as witch elfs or SoS for the points but not bad and more capable of standing on their own. The Blood Stalkers are judicators. They're just judicators. You ever play against Judicators? Because Judicators are preeeeeeetty good in practice. Obviously these won't highroll like judicators do but the amount of buffs you can pile on mean that their 24" range is the single most important part of their statline and they'll be killing things just fine thank you very much.

Heart renders aren't bad, life takers are absolute bunk if you just try to drop them into a list but in a maxed out group with some power from pain ticking, in a kraith list, with the deepstrike CA, with mind razor, with bravery buffs, with bravery debuffs, with prayers, they'd be scary and hard to pin down.

Morathi remains an enigma atm. I can say she's probably not going to get shot ever. Her debuff+Kraith+Cauldron+death save+MS+Whatever other buffs you feel like piling on to her mean that even oracle Morathi would be largely pointless to target for most armies, and the ones who still might are pretty outplayable. She functions so weirdly though, I feel she's definitely going to have to hit the table before we have a good idea of how strong she is.

[WoollyMammoth]

28 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Out of all New stuff (in terms of minis) only Lifetakers and Heartrenders seem pretty good. Snake ladies are pretty bad. Of course everything can be super buffed but why buff Blood Sisters when you can buff Witch Elves with 4 attacks each. 

heartrenders are 5 shooting attacks for 80 points. Lifetakers are interesting, with 10 attacks at 80 points, possibly 2 damage each, but no reding.  Both units you are paying 16 points per wound, which is very high.

Blood sisters you are paying 140 for 15 attacks and 10 wounds. You also get 5 possibly mortal attacks. Now you are paying only 14 points per wound with a better save and getting more attacks for your points as well. They also get a discount for taking a large unit. cheaper wounds, cheaper attacks and you are getting rending added in, and their range is 2". The downside is you are missing out on is 8" move instead of 14" fly ... but 8" isn't bad.

The blood sisters are interesting, an elite unit for their points. With a 4+ save near the shrine, you can shield a large unit and have a nice protected 3+ save unit that is dishing out a ton of rending attacks and mortals to deal with armored units that would stall your Witches/SoS. 

The weird thing is the unit champion has a heart? and there is no rules for this.

the Succubi I cant see committing to. they are a cool unit with their speed but their points are extremely fragile. Its no too bad if you think of it like Judicators, coming down and doing 10 rending attacks for 160 points, but they are not battleline and have a 6+ save instead of 4+. The Lifetakers are a little interesting as a unit that keeps charging in with 20 attacks with 2 damage each, but its very surprising they just don't have rend. Personally I would have given them -1 rend and made the retreat thing on a 3+, with the way they are written I just cant see them doing anything interesting compared to witch elves which have twice as many attacks and much much cheaper, battleline, etc. 

 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

10 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

heartrenders are 5 shooting attacks for 80 points. Lifetakers are interesting, with 10 attacks at 80 points, possibly 2 damage each, but no reding.  Both units you are paying 16 points per wound, which is very high.

Blood sisters you are paying 140 for 15 attacks and 10 wounds. You also get 5 possibly mortal attacks. Now you are paying only 14 points per wound with a better save and getting more attacks for your points as well. They also get a discount for taking a large unit. cheaper wounds, cheaper attacks and you are getting rending added in, and their range is 2". The downside is you are missing out on is 8" move instead of 14" fly ... but 8" isn't bad.

The blood sisters are interesting, an elite unit for their points. With a 4+ save near the shrine, you can shield a large unit and have a nice protected 3+ save unit that is dishing out a ton of rending attacks and mortals to deal with armored units that would stall your Witches/SoS. 

The weird thing is the unit champion has a heart? and there is no rules for this.

the Succubi I cant see committing to. they are a cool unit with their speed but their points are extremely fragile. Its no too bad if you think of it like Judicators, coming down and doing 10 rending attacks for 160 points, but they are not battleline and have a 6+ save instead of 4+. The Lifetakers are a little interesting as a unit that keeps charging in with 20 attacks with 2 damage each, but its very surprising they just don't have rend. Personally I would have given them -1 rend and made the retreat thing on a 3+, with the way they are written I just cant see them doing anything interesting compared to witch elves which have twice as many attacks and much much cheaper, battleline, etc. 

 

I think what puts me off life takers is the drop ability, whilst it's good, it's a slim chance they'll make a 9" charge (I play orkz in 40k and with full rerolls its still unlikely) so they aren't as great on the drop as the heartrenders. 

Then with the HR they can get those juice rend 2 javs into support characters like wizards or priest and then fade away on a 4+ (or moving forward to get a 3" charge) so they actually play better on the turn they drop whereas life takers have to gamble a 9" to get in...

Or you flap flap them up the board 14" a turn but they can't take a punch, they need the charge to be successful. And I just see them as witch elves with less attacks and more isolated from supporting buffs!

So I need convincing! HR I just see as the better choice over LT.

***also with the cult that gives out a -1 to hit at shooting and a command trait to relocate a unit a turn, they'll be so good as there javs will be rend 2 for a good portion of the game. Yes you forfeit morathis command ability but some times you won't always be using big M 

[DantePQ]

You're missing that both flying units can be deployed in 9'' they are perfect to harrass enemy leaders/small units/objectives. I've been playing Sylvaneth since Gh2016 and Tree-Revs were amazing, winning me many games those units work similar - sure 5 shooting attacks of Heartrenders isn't much but it's 3+,3+ (if possible re-rolls of 1), also they make extra move after shooting phase so then they can charge and dish out another 5A with rend. So you hold one or two units back and wait for them to make a move. 

Lifetakers are considerably worse as they are not an instant threat and are easy to kill sure you can try to make a 9'' charge but it won't happen reliably. 

Heartrenders are just much better at their roll two units should easily kill lesser characters or take some objective they are tactical tool and great one. 

Blood Sisters could be nice as they are monsters with Mindrazor and then without it still could attack like a truck but you need 10-15 I guess as more would be hard to get into combat 

 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

Well it's out of 9" not within. Yeah they can harass units but they won't get it off guaranteed whereas HR will always get to do something.

And rend 2 shooting is nothing to snuff at. How many rend 2 guns do you know? Cannons, skyhooks, drill cannons, bodkins, that's about it. 

I think they're invaluable for what they do, and with the relocate trait more so.

Just witches get 4 attacks rend 1 damage 2 (in perfect fight) with buffs from cauldrons and prayers, where as LT get 2 attacks rend 1 and damage 3.. and are harder to get buffs from prayers and spells (unless it's morathi) so witches are better overall.

[WoollyMammoth]

@Ekrund Oath Splitters
yeah that's a good point .. but you don't really want them in combat but  - they even have rend compared to LT! I See HR as a nice thing to spend 160 for a unit of 10, have it drop down on objectives or shoot behind your melee units. What is really particularly good about them is that A. they can be delayed as long as you need and B. they have 100% chance to drop. So you could potentially wait until turn 4 when the board is cleaned out, drop them behind something that is giving you trouble, jam 10 -2 rending spears into its face, at which point you are re-rolling hit and wounds of 1. Then if really need be you might even charge, or perhaps move toward an objective

It's disappointing because I really like the cool curved blades. I mean they are called "barbed sickle". Sickles are specially designed to go around shields! And its barbed! It almost seems like a misprint that they don't have rending. 

[Burf]

3 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

I do think that a balewind list will likely emerge for her, but I don't think it can carry as hard as Kroak can. She'll get some pretty obscene 54" range and 3 spells to surgically remove heroes and threats (probably 6-7 mortals on average), but I wonder if that will be enough? Does that warrant the points? Defensively she's wonderful - assuming someone else can Mystic her, she'll be at 2+ 6++ and -1 to attack her.  On top of capping out at 3 wounds taken per turn! Pretty daunting for any army to take out effectively. 

I don't think there's any way to math out an 18" spell from Morathi that doesn't end up at 72" after the balewind. She functionally has an infinite range. Plus she doesn't need MS on a balewind, with a BC nearby she's 2+ already.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

I agree with both of you  I just find HR the better of the two  I think the blood wrack shrine is 320pts 

[DantePQ]

Also I would take two units of 5 then one unit of 10 for 160 -  two units as you have double chance to make 4+ extra move na charge , much more flexibility.

[Burf]

3 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

I agree with both of you  I just find HR the better of the two  I think the blood wrack shrine is 320pts 

This is something that hasn't been brought up too much yet but MAN is the army gonna be hero starved.

At least 1 full 'cauldron' (hag/slaught/bloodwrack) unit will be pretty much mandatory, especially in non-morathi lists. You're most likely gonna want at least 2 Medusa both with mindrazor (you cannot afford to not have that spell in your list) hags are fantastic for only 60pts, not sure what a foot slaughter queen does yet but you might want that too.

I'd say with Morathi you're looking at 4-5 leaders per list, without morathi 6 isn't unreasonable.

[Yawn]

The more I think about mid to large units of Blood Sisters the more I like them. Especially with the Hag Narr ability & Blood Rites command trait. 4+ rr for a mortal wound is very nice in addition to their solid attacks. Great targets for our buff spells/prayers too especially mindrazor.

[Amradiel]

Sooo, I have two blood coven boxes at Home. What should I build? I would like to have them built and painted before next weekend  (risky I know). Personally I just love the snake ladies we are talking about the models. But I would like to play semi competitive and competitive games.

[Freejack02]

12 minutes ago, Burf said:

I don't think there's any way to math out an 18" spell from Morathi that doesn't end up at 72" after the balewind. She functionally has an infinite range. Plus she doesn't need MS on a balewind, with a BC nearby she's 2+ already.

I believe double-doubling a range triples it (for 54"), I recall it in a FAQ somewhere... it's also the most logical way to handle it. 

[DantePQ]

Just now, Amradiel said:

Sooo, I have two blood coven boxes at Home. What should I build? I would like to have them built and painted before next weekend  (risky I know). Personally I just love the snake ladies we are talking about the models. But I would like to play semi competitive and competitive games.

One Bloodwrack Shrine, One Cauldron 

2 Hags/Slaugther Queens

and Witch Elves (SoS are not that good , I will use maybe one unit of 10 with shields to guard objectives) 

you're looking at nice army then 

I think units of 20 WE are the best combination as they don't get bonuses for big units (of course you get discount) but they would be easier to navigate. 

[Burf]

Quick question, how many lore of shadows spells does Morathi get? One? Two? Anyone know?

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

3 minutes ago, Burf said:

Quick question, how many lore of shadows spells does Morathi get? One? Two? Anyone know?

Usually one in all the new battle tomes

*So you'll need some back up mind razors 

[Burf]

21 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

I believe double-doubling a range triples it (for 54"), I recall it in a FAQ somewhere... it's also the most logical way to handle it. 

The most logical way to handle it is to double-double. 2x2 is 4, after all.

And no, it wasn't FAQed, just checked. The only FAQ question was whether to add or multiply first. This is multiply, multiply so it doesn't apply.

It's 72" as per RAW.

[Burf]

3 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Usually one in all the new battle tomes

*So you'll need some back up mind razors 

Wasn't looking for 'usually'.

Nagash had 3, Arkhan had 1; so there's precedent for both. I'm kinda hopin for 2 myself.

[Burf]

30 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

One Bloodwrack Shrine, One Cauldron 

2 Hags/Slaugther Queens

and Witch Elves (SoS are not that good , I will use maybe one unit of 10 with shields to guard objectives) 

you're looking at nice army then 

I think units of 20 WE are the best combination as they don't get bonuses for big units (of course you get discount) but they would be easier to navigate. 

The pricing for WE was blacked out on Atia's list so I don't know for sure which of the 2 to go for but personally, I think they're about even. I would take 30 WE, 30 SoS and 10 SoS or 30WE, 10 SoS, 10SoS. The extra inch of the whip plus the 6" pile in feels like it would be worth the lower raw output a lot of the time.

It comes down to what you want the list to do but 30 witch elves is a good starting point.