Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[The Cyclop Owl]

28 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

Anyone got any early list ideas in mind? 

I’m trying to establish the viability of a Tzaangor-based summoning army. With skyfires, the list looks like this:

- 30 Tzaangors

- 10 Acolytes

- 10 Acolytes

- 9 Skyfires

- 1 Curseling

- 1 Gaunt Summoner

- 1 Tzaangor Shaman

- 1 Blues Scribes

 

The idea behind it is to use the Tzaangors and Skyfires to stall and reduce the threat while the wizards dish out 6 spells per turn. As soon as possible, summoning a full unit of pink horrors followed by a herald. 

 

From this his point on, you get the idea: start the split, keep dishing spells, summon more, be generally super annoying while the remainders of your original high DPS units (tzaangors, Skyfires and gaunt summoner) continue to rain damage on the table.

 

There are other combinations that look absolutely disgusting now, and I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the potential of the changehost.

[Olincay]

30 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

Anyone got any early list ideas in mind? 

Almost considering going Tzaangor heavy to have some bodies on the board, 
maybe something like. 
 2x30 Tzaangor
1x6 Skyfire
1x10 Acolytes

Currently at 1420 

Just no idea what heroes/Spell casters to take to try and max out fate points.  

[Nevvermore]

1 hour ago, AaronWIlson said:

Anyone got any early list ideas in mind? 

Remove half the units from your list. Done.

On a more serious note, I'm thinking Tzaangor blobs, Enlightened (much better because they can now deny shooting), Flamers, Pink Horrors and maybe Acolytes for cheap Battleline. Skyfires, Gaunt and LoC still good, just so damn expensive now.

[The Cyclop Owl]

59 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

Anyone got any early list ideas in mind? 

Also, just did the calculation and:

- Lord of Change

- Gaunt summoner

- Gaunt summoner

- Curseling

- Blue Scribe

- Ogroid Thaumaturge

- 10 pink horrors

- 10 pink horrors

- 10 pink horrors

- Changehost

 

That’s 2000 points if I’m correct, for a list where literally every single unit is a wizard. This dishes out a chill 13 spells per turn, and as soon as you start summoning heralds and more pink horrors, while splitting the ones that die it turns into a nightmarish concept.

 

Compared to the classic changehost, I’ve removed the changeling because there’s no point with the vortex being nerfed, I’ve removed blue and brilestone because you can summon them very early on and I’ve added a curseling, a 2nd gaunt summoner and an ogroid.

The curseling is self-explanatory, the second GS is there to increase spell count and guarantee high DPS and the Ogroid is there to hold the line before summoning kicks in, and to raise pink horrors on his own.

 

Don’t know about you but on paper this looks as scary as the old Changehost.

[Zephril]

13 minutes ago, The Cyclop Owl said:

Also, just did the calculation and:

- Lord of Change

- Gaunt summoner

- Gaunt summoner

- Curseling

- Blue Scribe

- Ogroid Thaumaturge

- 10 pink horrors

- 10 pink horrors

- 10 pink horrors

- Changehost

That’s 2000 points if I’m correct, for a list where literally every single unit is a wizard. This dishes out a chill 13 spells per turn, and as soon as you start summoning heralds and more pink horrors, while splitting the ones that die it turns into a nightmarish concept.

Compared to the classic changehost, I’ve removed the changeling because there’s no point with the vortex being nerfed, I’ve removed blue and brilestone because you can summon them very early on and I’ve added a curseling, a 2nd gaunt summoner and an ogroid.

I'm pretty new to DoT, so I may well be wrong on this; but I thought the Changehost required you to take Horror Heroes? Rather than just regular Heroes or Daemon Heroes? If so, wouldn't you need another 5 units to make the ChangeHost complete?

[Xasz]

1 hour ago, Olincay said:

Splitting to tie stuff up into combat is dead, i find it odd how Khorne can just summon 9 away from the enemy, no restrictions on having a hero. 

The hero restriction is there for Khorne as well.

[Xasz]

[Olincay]

2 minutes ago, Xasz said:

The hero restriction is there for Khorne as well.

Ah, Phew. 

[The Cyclop Owl]

19 minutes ago, Zephril said:

I'm pretty new to DoT, so I may well be wrong on this; but I thought the Changehost required you to take Horror Heroes? Rather than just regular Heroes or Daemon Heroes? If so, wouldn't you need another 5 units to make the ChangeHost complete?

I don’t play changehost and I don’t have the book with me so I can’t confirm, so I’ll assume you’re right about the heralds. Could easily replace a GS.

 

How many units minimum is a CH?

 

edit: actually with a list like that, I don’t think you even need the battalion. If the LoC dies you can re-summon it rather quickly. That leaves 180 points open, for some of the protective permanent spells.

[SwashBuccaneer]

Did the Tzaangors change in price? The picture looks like it's 480 for 30 of them now and not 450 but it's hard to tell for sure.

[Malakithe]

28 minutes ago, SwashBuccaneer said:

Did the Tzaangors change in price? The picture looks like it's 480 for 30 of them now and not 450 but it's hard to tell for sure.

People are saying 480 yes

[SwashBuccaneer]

2 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

People are saying 480 yes

Ok awesome. My eyes aren't failing me that hard yet then lol

[Lou_Cypher]

1 hour ago, The Cyclop Owl said:

I don’t play changehost and I don’t have the book with me so I can’t confirm, so I’ll assume you’re right about the heralds. Could easily replace a GS.

 

How many units minimum is a CH?

 

edit: actually with a list like that, I don’t think you even need the battalion. If the LoC dies you can re-summon it rather quickly. That leaves 180 points open, for some of the protective permanent spells.

I might actually suggest some Enlightened directly behind the Horrors for a scary speedbump if the Horrors get charged.

Plus doing double duty for quick objective grabbers.

[ssharkus]

I really dont understand who are you guys playing usually against, saying split is still scary)

I usually face alphastrike rosters or combat oriented ones. SCE, FEC, First Cohort even Ironjaws usually press very hard and early, and only a tarpit of horrors can stop them. I really cant remember a game were i would get so much space in the rear to manuevre and backpedal my heroes and theoretically use the new summoning freely.

And yeah, why the hell are brimstones 70 now, lol? They cant even split. ?

 

 

[Drib]

28 minutes ago, ssharkus said:

And yeah, why the hell are brimstones 70 now, lol? They cant even split. ?

 

 

Maybe to increase the minimum costs of the Changehost?

[RoyalDachshund]

Look like it's Fatesworn o' clock with all those changes 

[Asamu]

2 hours ago, The Cyclop Owl said:

I don’t play changehost and I don’t have the book with me so I can’t confirm, so I’ll assume you’re right about the heralds. Could easily replace a GS.

 

How many units minimum is a CH?

Lord of change and 8 or more of: Horrors (Hero, brimstone, blue or pink), Flamers, exalted flamers, Screamers, or Burning Chariots. If you're not bringing at least a few units of blue/brimstone horrors, it kind of defeats the purpose of the Changehost though. Though Blue Horrors went up 50 points, and Brimstone Horrors went up 30 points, so it's more difficult to fit everything in.

An Arcanite Cabal or Fatesworn Warband may be better if you want to cast as many spells as possible though. With Warscrolls trumping the core rules, the Fatesworn "cast as many arcane bolts as you have heroes every turn" thing is pretty good. That's +1 spell per wizard in every turn.

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Curseling (+20)
Magister (+20)
Magister (+20)
Magister (+20)
Gaunt Summoner (+60)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (+20)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (-20)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (-20)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (-20)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (-20)
10 x Pink Horrors (+80)
10 x Pink Horrors (+80)
Fatesworn Warband (+60)

This list comes out to 1980 with the new rules with 9(15) spells per turn. Arcanite Cabal can get just as many spells a bit cheaper, but doesn't let you bypass the restriction on arcane bolt, so you'll run out of different spells to cast.

I guess you could still play changehost with something like this:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Lord of Change (+60)
Herald of Tzeentch on Disk (+20)
Blue Scribes (+20)
Herald of Tzeentch (+20)
Gaunt Summoner (+60)
10 x Blue Horrors (+50)
10 x Blue Horrors(+50)
10 x Pink Horrors (+80)
10 x Pink Horrors (+80)
10 x Pink Horrors (+80)
Changehost (+20)
Umbral Spellportal

Total: 2000 / 2000

It has 11 spells per turn.  If you cut a herald and  swap the blues to brimstones, you could fit in the changeling. With free splitting on the horrors, there's still plenty of chaff (more than before actually) to contest objectives and protect the heroes once units start dying.

[BillyOcean]

Been playing Tzeentch competitively for 6 months now, and these changes are coming just as I'm hitting my stride *sigh*. Ah well, while the changes are certainly a spanner in the works for my current lists, I see lots of opportunity. It seems like the main piece of information we need, in order to start building viable lists, is whether the "Mortal Wound + Summon" spells will remain unchanged. If they do, I can imagine some interesting lists that function by gumming up enemy armies, tagging units with a spawn or couple of Tzaangors/Horrors on the corner to prevent movement, while the Tzeentch army grabs objectives and blasts away with other spells and shooting. 

I'm also seeing a role for a hyper-mobile and tanky hero who can serve as a beacon for summoning. I'm wondering if the day of the Fatemaster has arrived?? He can happily stand around in combat with non-flying enemy hordes, then zoom off up to 22" (using the 6" run command ability) to poop out blobs of blue horrors wherever they are needed when enough points are accrued. 

 

 

[Nico]

Quote

Don’t  know about you bu t on paper this looks as scary as the old Changehost.

Except that it has negligible melee damage output and people will be rapidly moving 90 Witch Aelves or 60 Ardboyz and 15 Pigs into you which will blend your whole army in 2 turns. Without Split you don’t have the ability to stop melee armies for long enough to zap them.

[RoloMcFury]

Tooling around with all the stuff spoiled so far, I think Changehost STILL has some juice in the tank. However, we obviously can't fill it with Brimstones, since they're more or less worthless at 70 points. On the flip side, I think Pink Horrors are stronger than ever, and firing off spells is now more important with Fate points. Getting 40 free Horrors for each Pink squad is also cool, and the mobility of Changehost should allow your heroes to get out of sticky situations and surround themselves with some fresh Horrors when the Pink ones get obliterated. As such, here's an list I sketched out:

Blue Scribes 140 (1 spell)
Lord of Change 380 (3 spells with Cogs)
Herald of Tzeentch 140 (2 spells)
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc 140 (1 spell)

x10 Pink Horrors 200 (1 spell)
x10 Pink Horrors 200 (1 spell)
x10 Pink Horrors 200 (1 spell)
x10 Pink Horrors 200 (1 spell)

x10 Blue Horrors 100 

Changehost 180
Umbral Spellportal 60
Chronomantic Cogs 60

Obviously, all the casters deploy around where the Spell Portal will be summoned and start chucking spells down the field. The Pink Horror squads all swap with each other, to get a free move and set up a screen an average of 18.5" forward, which should buy you time and leave enough space to summon a round of Blues in front of your casters once the Pinks bite the dust.

You can get real aggressive and force first turn so you can absolutely blast whatever high-priority targets your opponent has. It seems heroes are as vulnerable as ever to spells, despite Look out Sir helping against ranged attacks. You're firing off up to 11 spells a turn, which means you'll have a fresh LoC on potentially turn 4:

Re-roll spell- blue scribes
Chronomantic cogs- pink horrors
Spell portal- lord of change
infernal gateway- lord of change
bolt of tzeentch- herald of tzeentch
pink fire- herald of tzeentch (use 3d6)
blue fire- herald on disc
unchecked mutation- pink horrors
tzeentch's firestorm- lord of change
mystic bolt- pink horrors
mystic shield- pink horrors

That's an average of 22 wounds getting chucked 36" from your gathering o' wizards. Let me know what you guys think!

 

 

[Malakithe]

4 hours ago, RoloMcFury said:

Tooling around with all the stuff spoiled so far, I think Changehost STILL has some juice in the tank. However, we obviously can't fill it with Brimstones, since they're more or less worthless at 70 points. On the flip side, I think Pink Horrors are stronger than ever, and firing off spells is now more important with Fate points. Getting 40 free Horrors for each Pink squad is also cool, and the mobility of Changehost should allow your heroes to get out of sticky situations and surround themselves with some fresh Horrors when the Pink ones get obliterated. As such, here's an list I sketched out:

Blue Scribes 140 (1 spell)
Lord of Change 380 (3 spells with Cogs)
Herald of Tzeentch 140 (2 spells)
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc 140 (1 spell)

x10 Pink Horrors 200 (1 spell)
x10 Pink Horrors 200 (1 spell)
x10 Pink Horrors 200 (1 spell)
x10 Pink Horrors 200 (1 spell)

x10 Blue Horrors 100 

Changehost 180
Umbral Spellportal 60
Chronomantic Cogs 60

Obviously, all the casters deploy around where the Spell Portal will be summoned and start chucking spells down the field. The Pink Horror squads all swap with each other, to get a free move and set up a screen an average of 18.5" forward, which should buy you time and leave enough space to summon a round of Blues in front of your casters once the Pinks bite the dust.

You can get real aggressive and force first turn so you can absolutely blast whatever high-priority targets your opponent has. It seems heroes are as vulnerable as ever to spells, despite Look out Sir helping against ranged attacks. You're firing off up to 11 spells a turn, which means you'll have a fresh LoC on potentially turn 4:

Re-roll spell- blue scribes
Chronomantic cogs- pink horrors
Spell portal- lord of change
infernal gateway- lord of change
bolt of tzeentch- herald of tzeentch
pink fire- herald of tzeentch (use 3d6)
blue fire- herald on disc
unchecked mutation- pink horrors
tzeentch's firestorm- lord of change
mystic bolt- pink horrors
mystic shield- pink horrors

That's an average of 22 wounds getting chucked 36" from your gathering o' wizards. Let me know what you guys think!

 

 

How do you screen melee? And dont say free horror split. Its not instant. You have to build up the points then summon them. Is summoning allowed in your opponents turn? 

Two issues with that. If, say, you can slap Blues down in your opponents combat phase you better be the king of positioning due to how many Blues it would take to screen something like 30 witches or 40 spear skellies. Also single line walls no longer work.

And next if you cant summon during your opponents turn....well that list would be wiped by turn 2. Ironjawz new version of Smashin and Bashin would rip this apart. Ironjawz...let that sink in. Thats not even talking DoK or super eel friends or new Nighthaunt hordes. That entire army can fly too.

Changehost is dead.

[The Cyclop Owl]

12 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

How do you screen melee? And dont say free horror split. Its not instant. You have to build up the points then summon them. Is summoning allowed in your opponents turn? 

Two issues with that. If, say, you can slap Blues down in your opponents combat phase you better be the king of positioning due to how many Blues it would take to screen something like 30 witches or 40 spear skellies. Also single line walls no longer work.

And next if you cant summon during your opponents turn....well that list would be wiped by turn 2. Ironjawz new version of Smashin and Bashin would rip this apart. Ironjawz...let that sink in. Thats not even talking DoK or super eel friends or new Nighthaunt hordes. That entire army can fly too.

Changehost is dead.

Well you’ve convinced me: goodbye Changehost.

 

Now, arcanites. How about:

30 Tzaangors       480

3x10 Acolytes     240

9 Skyfires               660

1 Shaman               180

1 LoC                        380

Chronogs of time       60

 

The basics being, Acolytes buffer and Skyfires deal damage.

With chronogs of time summoned, Tzaangors will run/charge with destiny dice into what needs to be tied up turn 1. They can then travel a max of 28”...

From turn 2, the LoC uses the cogs to cast an extra spell and rain damage until it can summon other buffers.

The shaman plays a support role by bonusing the Skyfires and by replenishing the Tzaangors with boom of mutation.

 

[Countmoore]

18 hours ago, Zephril said:

I'm pretty new to DoT, so I may well be wrong on this; but I thought the Changehost required you to take Horror Heroes? Rather than just regular Heroes or Daemon Heroes? If so, wouldn't you need another 5 units to make the ChangeHost complete?

You are indeed correct. 

[Countmoore]

For me I’m going to wait till I’ve got everything in hand and Azyr has been updated hen I’ll have a play but 

1. New splitting is not a defence move now.  It’s an objective grab / board control ability that can and will be ****** down by a good player. 

2. Changehost will struggle I think to maintain the number for the double swap due to new points and this is needed to more often than you would think. 

3. Tzeentch armies will most likely be salves to darkness armies to be competitive as they have escaped pretty well. 

4. Nagash will single handedly stop a TZ list. Dead. 

[SaviourAnarchy]

Looks a lot like Tzaangor Skyfires got made nearly unplayable...