Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Tasman]

15 minutes ago, Killamike said:

Pinks are all wizards so I could see that being done. 

The gaunt summoner and chaos familiars warscroll always differentiates the models. 

The gaunt summoner is accompanied by 4 familiars. 

The gaunt summoner is a wizard and knows the following spells. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I don't want to take this unit to an event and be told that my balewind can't be cast by summoner. And currently I'd agree with them. 

Feel free to use one of the other two then. Me, I'm using the summoner with the little 'uns

[TheOtherJosh]

57 minutes ago, Killamike said:

Yeah I don't think this is correct. 

Balewind says set the caster up on the top and push all other models 3" away. 

Gaunt summoner says set up the familiars within 1" of him. Essentially making them a unit. 

They were always meant to be on separate bases because events in silver tower summoned 1 of the familiars. 

At a tourney I would fully expect people to pull me up on that.

I am very open to being proven wrong as then I can take them and get +3 casting on my summoner. 

Take a look at this thread here:

Basically unless they change the rules on the "Gaunt Summoner with Chaos Familiars" in how the Familiars are placed, the Familiars go with the Summoner onto the Vortex.

(it's an order of precedence issue) 

 But the rules for the Chaos Familiars are not the same as the standard "Chaos Familiars" from the Compendium. Each of them has a different ability. 

Tweak is the Bird, Slop is the Fish, Blot is the Book on legs and Pug is the Halfmoon faced familiar holding the Stormcast mask.

"Tweak: Add 1 to the hit rolls for the Gaunt Summoner’s Warptongue Blade, as long as he is accompanied by Tweak.

Slop:Your opponent must subtract 1 from the save rolls of enemy models that are within 3" of the Gaunt Summoner, as long as he is accompanied by Slop.

Blot:Add 1 to the casting rolls for the Gaunt Summoner, as long as he is accompanied by Blot.

Pug:Your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target the Gaunt Summoner in the combat phase , as long as he is accompanied by Pug."

[Killamike]

Ok thanks. I'm happy enough with that. 

[wanderingrogue]

Quote

 

How are you using both Sayl and still using Disciples as Allies?

Sayl is from the Pitched Battle Faction : Tamurkhan's Horde (which isn't on any Ally lists) which means you would need to be choosing from a "Grand Alliance:Chaos" Army ... which doesn't get Allies.

 

Allies are picked by ALLEGIANCE not FACTION. 

 

Sayl has the slaves of darkness keyword and ergo slaves of darkness alligience as confirmed on page 116. This means hes a valid allie.  Ive discussed this with both the gw gt team and the major tournaments im planning on attending and all agree. So (if i get it painted) im allowed to take that to all the major events coming up. 

 

Also yes, ofc he has the mark of tzeentch (the other sorcerer)

[wanderingrogue]

Also this has just been pointed out to me:

Destiny dice....at no point does it stipulate they have to be expended on friendly units.... it states "any TZEENTCH unit"

 

can you use destiny dice on enemy units rolls?

discuss.

[Pete_P]

It says you substitute destiny dice in as the result of a roll “you would have made”. That implies you have to be rolling the dice, which you only do for units in your army. 

[TheOtherJosh]

2 hours ago, wanderingrogue said:

Allies are picked by ALLEGIANCE not FACTION. 

Sayl has the slaves of darkness keyword and ergo slaves of darkness alligience as confirmed on page 116. This means hes a valid allie.  Ive discussed this with both the gw gt team and the major tournaments im planning on attending and all agree. So (if i get it painted) im allowed to take that to all the major events coming up. 

Also yes, ofc he has the mark of tzeentch (the other sorcerer)

Allies are picked based based off of the Pitched Battle Faction lists. Not off of Allegiance.

I understand what it "says" but if it were picked, as you say, "based on Allegiance" and not Pitched Battle Faction list then "Disciples of Tzeentch" wouldn't be on the Ally list ... it would say "Tzeentch" because there is no "Disciples of Tzeentch" Allegiance. (Along with Blades of Khorne and Daemons of Nurgle, Hosts of Slaanesh, Brayherds, Wanderers, Gitmob Grots, Moonclan Grots, Nurgle Rotbringer etc. None of those forces could be taken based on the interpretation you suggest.)

And most importantly they wouldn't have FAQ'd Daemons of Nurgle to use the Pitched Battle Faction names for Allies.

The fact that he has the "Slaves to Darkness" keyword just means that in an Army that has been pulled from Grand Alliance Chaos that all units can meet the keyword "Slaves to Darkness" it can still meet the requirements for Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness and take from those Allegiance Abilities.

If Forgeworld had meant him to be on the "Slaves to Darkness" Pitched Battle Faction list then he would have been in a separate "Slaves to Darkness" Pitched Battle Faction list than on the Tamurkhan's Horde Faction list.

[Louzi]

Hey,

I am new to tzeentch. I am a little bit confused how to use the horrors (pink, blue, brimstones) the best. Is there any guide or good batt rep? Do you hold the blue/brimstones in summoning pool or set them up? If you set them up, brimstones in front or behind blue/pink?

[wanderingrogue]

3 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Allies are picked based based off of the Pitched Battle Faction lists. Not off of Allegiance.

 

that is 100% incorrect

again, read the words. page 76.

"the pitched battle profile of each faction lists the ALLEGIANCES of the allied units you can take"

page 116

"...specific allegiances, for example STORMCAST ETERNALS or SLANNESH"  

To claim anything else categorically  false - please stop confusing people. 

 

again ive spoken to the playtesters and gw and it has been confirmed - its a done deal

[TheOtherJosh]

25 minutes ago, wanderingrogue said:

that is 100% incorrect

again, read the words. page 76.

"the pitched battle profile of each faction lists the ALLEGIANCES of the allied units you can take"

page 116

"...specific allegiances, for example STORMCAST ETERNALS or SLANNESH"  

To claim anything else categorically  false - please stop confusing people. 

 

again ive spoken to the playtesters and gw and it has been confirmed - its a done deal

Please find and point out to me where the Allegiance "SLAANESH" (just as slaanesh) is listed as force that can be used to Ally from. Not "Hosts of Slaanesh" ... that's the Pitched Battle Faction name not an Allegiance name.

(If you're having problems finding it, it's because the Allegiance names aren't in the Ally lists.)

Your example works, but ONLY when the Faction and Allegiance names are identical.

In this case, Forgeworld put Sayl on the Pitched Battle Faction list for Tamurkhan's Horde. He is part of the Tamurkhan's Horde Pitched Battle Faction. (Not Slaves to Darkness, or in a separate Slaves to Darkness list.)

Using your example, BoK, DoT, Wanderers, Daemons of Nurgle, Nurgle Rotbringers and a bunch of others would be unable to Ally at all.... Because those are not Allegiance names... Those are Pitched Battle Faction name lists.

Are you actually telling me that the Factions that don't have matching Allegiance names can't be used as Allies?  

Because that implication is pretty confusing to me ... 

For some List builds, it is extremely inconvenient. It doesn't change that what they describe is broken when Faction names don't match Allegiance names.

 

 

[wanderingrogue]

again, incorrect, as i ve spoken to the gw directly.

 

but play as you wish, its a great game for that.

 

in the meantime at matched play events its how it works. not amount of arguing about it changes that.

[TheOtherJosh]

21 minutes ago, wanderingrogue said:

again, incorrect, as i ve spoken to the gw directly.

but play as you wish, its a great game for that.

in the meantime at matched play events its how it works. not amount of arguing about it changes that.

Please help me understand which part is incorrect?

The part where factions don't always have matching Allegiance names?

Or the the part where Faction names are what is listed out in the Ally list, and not Allegiance names?

Or something else?

[wanderingrogue]

the bit where the rule book EXPLICITLY states that when you choose your allies you go off the allegiance and not the faction....then later very clearly explains that your allegiance  can be any key word that you scroll holds.

 

does it need an faq ? probably cos there are inconsistencies as you point out - om both sides of the fence/

but that could just as easily mean the scrolls have missing key words that they need not that it "must be" based on faction.

do i think that the easiest solution would be to state "allegiance or faction list"... yes i think that would be best

but as it stands when you choose your allies its based off the key words on the units in questions scroll. This.is.what.the.rules.say. 

When i read this i questioned it, and the response was made through the correct channels and that was that i was correct in my reading.  key word = allegiance

 

will it change in the future? who knows..  but somethings not right somewhere either with some scrolls or the rules as written. but unless anything new happens then us mear mortals can only go with the rules as written or house rule it.

the way you state makes a perfectly acceptable house rule. but dont confuse it with the ACTUAL rules, that anyone attending an event would need to know when making thier list to avoid penalties or disappointment.

 

[ThePie]

Trying to figure out if it's better to run the gaunt summoner with Glimpse The Future or Treacherous Bond.

Being able to generate more fate dice is really sweet, but on the other hand i only run 1 summoner and he is the best anti horde option i have so ranged armies might focus fire him down.

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, wanderingrogue said:

the bit where the rule book EXPLICITLY states that when you choose your allies you go off the allegiance and not the faction....then later very clearly explains that your allegiance  can be any key word that you scroll holds.

...

the way you state makes a perfectly acceptable house rule. but dont confuse it with the ACTUAL rules, that anyone attending an event would need to know when making thier list to avoid penalties or disappointment.

So, we agree that the rules work if the Allegiance and Faction names are the same.

The RAW that you are insistent on following doesn't work when they don't.

Basically, with your reading, you couldn't include Arcanites as Allies because Arcanites isn't listed as a valid Ally Allegiance name. And  neither is Tzeentch. While "Disciples of Tzeentch" is on the valid Ally list, there is no Allegiance or Keyword "Disciples of Tzeentch" on any Warscroll.

The actual RAW rules wouldn't allow you to use Allies if your Allegiance doesn't match the Pitched Battle Faction name.

This is because there are no matching Ally tables for Allegiance names. Ally lists have Pitched Battle Faction names.

By choosing to follow RAW in the manner that you're proposing you're having to houserule which Allegiances you're using and what Ally tables and lists actually look like. Using the appropriate Pitched Battle Faction names and the associated list of  available units and Warscrolls solves the issue.

This is because the rule to use "Allegiances" breaks most of Chaos Factions and ally tables.

I understand that you're enthusiastic about using Sayl in your list, and that not having him in the table you'd like basically breaks your list and removes the ability to Ally.

Your list fits under a Grand Allegiance Chaos Army, but you would be limited to "Allegiance:Chaos" as your force can't meet the limitations of Allegiance:Slaves to Darkness" once you add in the Diciples of Tzeentch and can't meet the requirements for Allegiance:Tzeentch if you're using Sayl (Because he isn't part of the Faction Slaves to darkness, he's part of the faction Tamurkhan's Horde. Amusingly Tamurkhan's Horde can't ally with StoD with Mark of Tzeentch)

Unfortunately due to lack of proofreading and playtesters that the issue didn't hit it was missed. 

So we're here today discussing that list making is broken if you use RAW and include Allies for factions that don't have Allegiance names that match.

[wanderingrogue]

Dude. Pm me. Ill show you the messages if you want.  Apprently there is something in the works to sort out the wonkeyness

But for now. Your alligience is dictated by your key words. And faction...

..has..

..nothing..

..to..

..do..

..with picking you allies.

 

Yes. This means you cant allie ANY monster of chaos and a whole slew of other wierdness. Im sure most peopel wont care and most tos will let it slide.

But some wont. Mark got third at eggs and his list was found to be illegal for this very reason. So he dropped out like a gent.

 

But catagorically... your keywords are what you look at to pick your allies. Im trying to help. Arguing thats its stupid doesnt change the facts.

 

The fact that it raises stupid scenarios is why i brought it to the attention kf the powers that be ..AND THEY SAID I WAS RIGHT AND THAT SOMETHING IS BEING DONE...

 

Im not sure how much clearer i can be.

 

Have a good one.

[bomba776]

Damn it. That means Chaos is doomed since none of the allegiances of the four gods have an ally list... And no one can take Disciples of Tzeentch  as ally even if they have Disciples of Tzeentch in their ally list since none of the models in Disciples of Tzeentch have Disciples of Tzeentch keywords.

[Gilby]

There's no such thing as belonging to a particular faction the way you belong to an allegiance. So not sure why people are repeating this idea that you can't pick allies unless you take entirely from one faction list, it never says that anywhere in the rules.

It says, "The first step in picking an army is choosing it's allegiance. All of the units in the army must either have the allegiance, or be allied to that allegiance." (p74) and  "Each faction lists the allegiances of the allied unit you can take". (p76)

So; Pick an Allegiance, and you can take allies from the list at the bottom of the corresponding faction list.

 

[kozokus]

Could we please get this alliance vs facton vs ****** out of the threat please?

More Tzeentch and less abusive rule-interpretation. (Even if it is very Tzeentchy to reinterpet rules to confuse other people)

[RoyalDachshund]

Tzeentch
Less abusive rule-interpretation

Pick one

[Nico]

Not funny and not original.

Who is taking DoT to Facehammer and/or the GT Finals?

[TalesOfSigmar]

27 minutes ago, Nico said:

Not funny and not original.

Who is taking DoT to Facehammer and/or the GT Finals?

I'm taking them to Facehammer but it's a completely ridiculous list rather than anything competitive. I'm more looking forward to a few drinks and meeting up with mates.

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Magical Supremacy
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Lord Of Change (300)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Kairos Fateweaver (340)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (120)
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Units
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1760 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
 

 

 

[Twitch of Izalith]

I would love to see some different lists get talked about. There has to be a lot of possibilities in the army beyond spamming skyfires or making a huge tarpit with horrors which is the extent of what I have seen people do with it.

I have run a fatesworn battallion but thats very much a traditional StD / warriors of chaos set up. 

Maybe one day I will expand into the pure Tzeentch stuff but too many projects on the go right now. I'm a little bit wary because a few things seem to be very powerful "because they are" rather than "because they should be" 

I'm not sure I would enjoy playing that.  I mean if I wreck your face with a bloodthirster then fair enough but if I wreck your bloodthirster with my blue beastmen... seems a bit lame  I guess I need to read the disciples book and get a better feel for them.

[Solaris]

1 hour ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

I would love to see some different lists get talked about. There has to be a lot of possibilities in the army beyond spamming skyfires or making a huge tarpit with horrors which is the extent of what I have seen people do with it.

I have run a fatesworn battallion but thats very much a traditional StD / warriors of chaos set up. 

I think Tzaangor-based lists are the most powerful right now. Units of 30 Tzaangors are simply waaaaaay undercosted, and I think this kind of army is stronger and more versatile than both the Skyfire lists and the Changehost. See @hobgoblinclub's list on one of the previous pages for an example.

[Nico]

It's alarming that you can fit in 3 Chickens and still have space for Skyfires and a summoning pool!