Wanna Start Tomb Kings but how?!

[Congratz]

Hey there
I really love the theme of the tomb kings and i really want to make a tomb king army. Problem is the models is out of production....

Do you guys have any resolution ?

Great day!

[Niltzsche]

Try sellung groups on facebook. At least in the german one there are the occational selling posts.

Where are you from by the way? I've got some tombking stuff I want to sell.

[Squirrelmaster]

Well you basically have 3 options:

1. Look for another company that does undead models with a sufficiently “Tomb King” feel (but they won't be usable in GW stores or events)
2. Look for people selling official GW models second-hand
3. Come up with suitable conversions/proxies using other models.

And of course you can mix up some combination of the three.

[swarmofseals]

Your best bet is the secondary market. NIB stuff is still crazy expensive (and even more crazy expensive than it used to be), but if you are willing to buy loose/painted/stripped models you can get stuff for a pretty reasonable price still. Most of the basic stuff (skeletons, for example) you can get at or below retail prices without too much trouble while some of the rarer kits (like Necropolis Knights and Sphinx kits) are a bit over previous retail. 

I actually have a ton of Tomb Kings stuff that I'd be willing to sell, so feel free to PM me if you are interested.

[Sception]

there's not really much in the way of good options for starting tomb kings at this time.  I'd recommend against doing so altogether.  Secondary market options suffer dramatically inflated prices and third party options are of dubious quality at best.  If we ever see a new Tomb Kings line from GW, you'll wish you had waited, and if we don't ever see a new Tomb Kings line from GW, then you can bet that the legacy rules will continue to get worse and more outdated with every revision until support is dropped altogether.

[Spiky Norman]

I have to agree with Sception, that it would be a shame to head down a dead-end road, while we now stand on a precipice of a new era for Death with the coming campaign and following releases.

But of course it's your hobby and always follow what would make you happy, though perhaps at least wait two weeks and see what the opening of the Malign Portents will bring :-)

[Riluo]

I am in the process of using TK shield/heads I got from a garage sale in a box of random broke bits and pieces ($2aud ) on AOS skeletons, tomb guards etc to give my army a TK flavour as we speak. I also have a full set of 20 NIB TK archers I got of ebay for $10aud a box a few weeks ago. So just keep an eye out as there are parts you can find if you search around. On top of this I will be converting my black knights with aspects TK flavour, insofar as colour scheme, TK shields and sand/desert bases.

 

This seems to be my best option as I can still play my GW models but they have a theme that looks slightly Tomb kings-ish.

 

ps I will post a few shots when I base coat a couple.

 

[Riluo]

Not the best paint job or photos but I think it gives a general idea of what I mean with regards to these grave guard. I will tidy them up tomorrow and finish highlighting etc.

 

 

[themortalgod]

On 12/22/2017 at 10:26 AM, Sception said:

there's not really much in the way of good options for starting tomb kings at this time.  I'd recommend against doing so altogether.  Secondary market options suffer dramatically inflated prices and third party options are of dubious quality at best.  If we ever see a new Tomb Kings line from GW, you'll wish you had waited, and if we don't ever see a new Tomb Kings line from GW, then you can bet that the legacy rules will continue to get worse and more outdated with every revision until support is dropped altogether.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Sception. I currently have a large TKs force that I adore but its getting harder and harder to justify investing in as the models are getting more and more expensive. Also the way GW heavily nerfed them for GH2017 while also removing things like battalions from compendium armies gave me the feeling that they are intending to phase out support for compendium armies in the future. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen in GH2018. I expect GW to draw a line where compendium forces are "narrative play" only and won't get any more updates anymore.

That said, I think the odds of another Tomb Kings line coming at some point are reasonably high. The line has some great, modern, plastics that could easily be re-released (tomb guard, stalkers, sphynx). Also there is mention of the "red chariots of the sun god" in one of the fluff books for AoS in the lands of Nagash so there is some variation on a chariot themed undead force in the fluff. Though, who knows if GW will ever develop it. Death as a faction is severely limited right now and TKs would add an interesting new faction to Death that is very different than the others. Personally I'd love to see TKs return under the command of a resurrected Khalida who was made a Mortarch during End Times. I think it would make for a really compelling alternative Death faction because Khalida is not evil. She stands for good and even opened her doors to refugee mortals during the end times. Her eternal hatred of Neferata also would offer interesting fluff opportunities.

If you want to still do TKs, in spite of this. While they are pretty weak now relative to other armies they do have some formidable units. Ushabti are particularly efficient right now. For 120pts, 3 Ushabti are very strong and can take a massive beating from most units before going down. Chariots are still pretty good as well. Sphynx, unfortunately, are just way too many points for what you get. I feel the same about Setta/Tomb King in Exalted Chariot. Catapults are horrible for their cost so I'd steer clear of them. Tomb Guard, while amazing models, are also pretty heavily outclassed by standard skeletons.  Horsemen are amazing. They don't do much killing but boy can they take a lot of punishment for a unit that is only 100pts and super fast. Necro knights are still pretty strong, though perhaps a bit overcosted. Stalkers are also pretty good for their cost but like knights are very expensive on Ebay. 

The best way to get the models, I find, is patience. I am a member of a few used mini selling groups for my local city on FB and I regularly watch craigslist. Every so often someone will be looking to unload some old TK minis, when they do, if its a good price, jump on the opportunity. If you try to build the army by buying everything on ebay at full "going" prices a TK army will cost you a fortune right now. The reason they are so expensive was in 2016 and early to mid 2017 the Settra + Necro Knights combo was REALLY strong so competitive players were buying up TK models like crazy. I wouldn't be surprised to see them slowly get cheaper now, though, as the competitive demand is gone so you may start to see competitive players start to look to offload their armies since TKs def aren't competitive anymore. (Also watch ebay, never know what you will find, a few months back I got a scorpion, 4 tomb swarms, and 2 carrion for like $20usd) but, for now, expect most TK stuff on ebay to be well over priced. 

Another option is Kings of War has an egypt themed undead line. Personally I'm not in love with their models, but it is a very cheap way to build a TK army now. http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/empire-of-dust.html No chariots, though, unfortunately.

[Sception]

I would not recommend putting much hope in re-releases of the previous tomb king line.  From top to bottom, there were based on the old warhammer fantasy skeleton models, old proportions that, as nice as individual kits might have been, are all wildly out of step with the latter day vampire count models that make up the current deathrattle line.  You can't put a TK skeleton next to a deathrattle skeleton warrior, or a TK tomb guard next to a deathrattle grave guard, and not see the problem.

And this problem affects literally every plastic in the old tomb king lines.  warriors, horsemen, chariots, tomb guard, all obviously with wrong-proportion-skeletons.  the necroknight riders ruin the stalker kit.  the warsphinx riders ruin the necrosphynx kit.

We might, at some point, see a return of some ideas from the tomb kings line.  Deathrattle chariots or archers or monstrous cavalry or war machines wouldn't shock me.  But we won't be seeing those specific models again ever.  GW isn't going to re-release a discontinued line that is so dramatically out of step with their other existing lines in such a fundamental way.

[Riluo]

 

Here is a few more that I just completed today. Excuse the dust on them it is a bit dusty where I had them sitting last night.

To make them I utilized the newer skeleton boxsets and added the TK skulls, weapons and shields. A few used random parts from TK bodies to mix up the ranks more so they looked less carbon copy. The paint jobs are not great but this is the first set of models I have ever made so hoping as I make more I learn some tricks from people.

 

 

Here

[BadgersinMeadows]

On 28/12/2017 at 12:54 AM, Sception said:

I would not recommend putting much hope in re-releases of the previous tomb king line.  From top to bottom, there were based on the old warhammer fantasy skeleton models, old proportions that, as nice as individual kits might have been, are all wildly out of step with the latter day vampire count models that make up the current deathrattle line.  You can't put a TK skeleton next to a deathrattle skeleton warrior, or a TK tomb guard next to a deathrattle grave guard, and not see the problem.

And this problem affects literally every plastic in the old tomb king lines.  warriors, horsemen, chariots, tomb guard, all obviously with wrong-proportion-skeletons.  the necroknight riders ruin the stalker kit.  the warsphinx riders ruin the necrosphynx kit.

We might, at some point, see a return of some ideas from the tomb kings line.  Deathrattle chariots or archers or monstrous cavalry or war machines wouldn't shock me.  But we won't be seeing those specific models again ever.  GW isn't going to re-release a discontinued line that is so dramatically out of step with their other existing lines in such a fundamental way.

The newer TK releases were sculpted in the same style as the VC skeletons.

[bonzai]

These are the best 3rd party I have found so far. 

http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/47-royal-tumuli-guardians

I am going to be converting their hero on horseback into a Wight king.

[Sception]

18 hours ago, Atreides said:

The newer TK releases were sculpted in the same style as the VC skeletons.

No.  No they weren't.  To the last model, they were all designed with the style and proportions of the old skeletons.  You can see it in the pictures in this thread.  I can see it in the models on my desk.  Every one of them have the same thick bones and oversized hands & skulls.  None of them match the current deathrattle models in proportion or style of detail on the underlying skeletons.  Not the plastic tomb guard, not the neroknight riders, not the warsphinx crew.  I have all of these models, and they were all very clearly designed to fit into existing tomb kings armies based entirely around the old style skeleton warriors.

[BadgersinMeadows]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

No.  No they weren't.  To the last model, they were all designed with the style and proportions of the old skeletons.  You can see it in the pictures in this thread.  I can see it in the models on my desk.  Every one of them have the same thick bones and oversized hands & skulls.  None of them match the current deathrattle models in proportion or style of detail on the underlying skeletons.  Not the plastic tomb guard, not the neroknight riders, not the warsphinx crew.  I have all of these models, and they were all very clearly designed to fit into existing tomb kings armies based entirely around the old style skeleton warriors.

Ah, that's a shame. Thanks for letting me know.

[Sception]

They're still great models, and the detail on the later TK line is a lot better than their earlier plastics, even if the overall proportions are still based on the old skeleton models.

And you can get away with off proportions sometimes.  For instance, yeah, the warsphinx crew are and necroknights are oversized and somewhat out of proportion compared to the regular deathrattle infantry skeletons, but so are all three of the mortarchs.  If you take arkhan off of Razarak and re-pose him to be standing upright, he's like twice as tall as a deathrattle skeleton even before you count his big hat.  It's pretty common in AoS for important models, and models mounted on big monsters, to be somewhat oversized compared to regular infantry.  Even more so than latter day warhammer fantasy, which was already going in this direction, AoS uses Hierarchical Proportions, an artistic term for "make the important stuff bigger than it should be, so it stands out."

Even tomb guard can mostly get away with this.  I mean, they are noticeably oversized compared to regular skeletons, but then again their an elite unit, therefore more important, therefore bigger.  They've also got a lot more armor/clothing/decorations, so the underlying skeleton proportions being different is less noticeable, provided you don't put them right next to grave guard models.

I would shy away from regular TK skeleton warriors (though their shields look fantastic on the deathrattle models), skeleton cavalry, and the chariot riders, as they're not important enough to justify being bigger, and the lack of armor and clothing makes their goofier old proportions much more noticeable.  However, the skeleton horses themselves aren't terrible, so the chariots can fit into a deathrattle army aesthetically if you replace the drivers with regular skeleton warrior models.  Because they're shorter than TK skeletons, you'll need to raise the platform of the chariot a bit.  I used sticks of balsa wood.  If you don't like the horses, you can replace them with hexwraith steeds, the size is about the same, and the detailing and proportions on the newer skeleton horse models are a lot better, but it's not as pressing as with the infantry.

What looks good in the same unit or army is all subjective judgment calls, I'm not saying armies that mix pieces between the TK and VC skeleton models look bad, I think they can look great, my army does it.  Not that it necessarily matters, since actual TK stuff is all but unobtainable these days.

But the underlying style difference is absolutely there.  There's a reason why the VC line didn't replace skeletons piecemeal.  They didn't do new skeletons until they were ready to also do new grave guard and new black knights and a new wight king, replacing all the VC skeleton models at once.  TK never did this, they released new models without replacing the old, so the new models had to maintain the old proportions to not look out of place.  I'm convinced that this, as much as anything else, is why TK got dropped in AoS.  They couldn't keep both lines with such completely different looking skeleton models in the same game, especially not as part of the same overall faction.  But the sales and interest in TK wasn't enough to justify doing new models for literally every single kit in the entire line.  So now they're just gone.

I still hope we'll eventually see some of the TK ideas re-done as deathrattle kits.  Deathrattle wizards, chariots, archers, light cavalry, war machines, monsters, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, giants, etc.  Just TK ideas, redone as deathrattle models in a gothic style to fit the surviving model line.  If that were to happen, they could cancel legacy tomb king rules altogether and just say 'use old tomb kings models as their closest equivalent in the death rattle line.  Then people with legacy TK armies could have up-to-date army rules that they could be confident would see continued support going forward, while deathrattle players would have an actual army with some actual variety to it.

 

I'm not confident it will actually happen that way, but I do still hope for it.  And I think it's a lot more likely than GW bringing back a defunct old model line, or introducing an all new skeleton line separate from and competing with the line of skeleton models that they already sell.

[HiveKingTombTyrant]

Just a quick history lesson for those who are wondering why TK skeletons are larger than regular ones:

In the old world, the Nehekharan people were seen as “super” people, as their culture had everything, from food gifted by the gods, elite training from their Kings, etc.

This became lore for certain when WHFB had a mini campaign called “Storm of Magic” where, if on a piece of terrain, a Liche Priest could conjur a spell called “Return to the Golden Age” which brought the TK their vigor back when they had skin and were alive (the spell turned them into elves basically, but with the strength of anywhere from 5-8 instead of 3-5 depending on which unit was effected) and turned the entire army into the most badass undead army you’ve ever seen!

This particular spell (Return to the Golden Age) was brought back once again in another campaign book, but on a far lesser scale than that of “storm of magic” (they wanted people to use the spells, but not absolutely crush their opposition with it)

the reason I bring this up is... having grown up with this lore, I don’t mind the larger skeletons at all, even if they don’t look as cool...

Now as far as AoS goes, none of that flies because the old world is dead, so yeah it would be cool to get new TK Skeletons.... but we probably won’t! =(

[Sception]

That lore, to the extent it was even q thing, was a back-fit excuse to justify having two completely different looking skeleton lines, after the vamp count skittles and wights were all replaced with new models and the TK skittles weren't.  If GW were ever to bring back tomb kings with a new line, I expect they'd have the same skeleton proportions as the deathrattle models.

[Kamose]

I started a Tomb Kings army when the I heard they were being discontinued.  Tomb Kings were my first Fantasy army in 7th edition and I love the flavor and lore.  Sadly I didn't play with them for long since back then they suuuucked like an airplane toilet; got tired of being tabled by turn 2.  Worst...starter...army...ever!  :'(

As it turns out I really like the skeletons side of things and not the reanimant side of things.  This is good since Deathrattle will surely get an update sooner or later and TK skellies are as good as any other for a Deathrattle list.  The only problems might be the archers and chariots but the rest should be fine.  Tomb King = Wight King, Liche Priest = Necromancer, and so on.  I'm very interested in this new Legions of Nagash book to see how Deathrattle are updated.  So interested in fact that I might just expand from Tomb Kings to Deathrattle and Death generally.

As for where to find them...I don't have much to add.  eBay, conversions, and lots of patience are your friends.  Search long enough and you'll find some gems ($35 Bone Giant in box anyone?!)  Also some models aren't too bad price wise.  Basic skeletons and horsemen are not too pricey and the old metal tomb guard aren't bad either.  The new tomb guard are very expensive though they are also very nice models.

Oh and I highly recommend Tyler Mengel's Unofficial Tomb Kings Battletomb.  It hasn't been update for GHB 2017 yet but its still great for narrative and open games (and matched if your TO is into that kinda thing).  Here's the link:

http://theendlessdeserts.blogspot.com/

[Riluo]

As far as I was aware we can still use tomb king stuff in our death armies as long as the TK model has the death/deathrattle/skeleton etc tag . I only mention it as GW released a TK battle tomb to show info on the models and in it chariots/skeletons etc all have the following types of tags:

 

[Sception]

the most recent version of the compendium removes the 'deathrattle' tags from TK skeleton stuff, among other changes.  They're still legally playable in Death armies, but there's a bit less synergy.  And all the TK summoning and healing spells were removed.  And there were a handful of other nerfs - the sphynxes in particular took terrible hits, with huge point increases coupled with a dramatic nerf to their defensive abilities (halfing the damage of attacks that target them instead of the total number of wounds suffered).

[Kugane]

I have 9 chariots and a settra partially assembled/painted if you really want to start tomb kings. That would be half your army done. If you are in Europe that is. 

[Nagashizzle]

I’m literally just sat trying to find reasonably priced Ushabti models. Hard as sin.

[themortalgod]

3 minutes ago, Nagashizzle said:

I’m literally just sat trying to find reasonably priced Ushabti models. Hard as sin.

Unfortunately, since they were among the only TK models not super nerfed by GH2017 their value skyrocketed. 

[Riluo]

It took me a full month to find a single model (new in pack) for $10aud , which honestly sucks as I need three