Double Cunning Deceiver Skaven Deathrunner combo filth

[Double Misfire]

Has anyone else stumbled across this yet?

The faq entry for the Skaven Deathrunner goes out of it's way to state that any command abilities or artefacts given to a Skaven Deathrunner are also carried over to and duplicated on the illusory twin. Nothing in the entry for Cunning Deceiver has any Bloodsecrator style disclaimer ensuring you can only be affected by it once, meaning that a Chaos allegiance force with a Cunning Deceiver Deathrunner as its general  is going to be looking at a flat -2 to hit modifier for the enemy on the first turn.

Obviously Cunning Deceiver isn't worded in a way preventing it from stacking because normally there would be no way you'd be able to take it more than once in an army, and this is undoubtedly a fairly flagrant abuse of the rules, but abusing rules and being doubly cunning and deceptive is pretty in character for a skaven, so it's in pretty good taste. A single Cunning Deceiver is bad enough in a fast moving combat army, can you imagine a Deathrunner army general combo'd with a Murderhost or similar? 

As well as Cunning Deceiver the faq entry on illusory twin offers a bunch of other neat combos should you decide to choose a different command trait (double Great Destroyer for 4+ unpredictable destruction rolls doesn't seem too bad) and allows you to use inspiring presence twice (potentially four times with the Crown of Conquest).

 

Thoughts?

[Nico]

Inventive but no that doesn’t work purposively.

[BaldoBeardo]

15 minutes ago, Nico said:

Inventive but no that doesn’t work purposively.

*Citation needed.

I'd love for this to be BS, but I can't find anything, especially in light of the FAQ.

[Mayple]

RAW - yes.

RAI - Probably not.

Conclusion: Until it is further clarified, ask your opponent/tournament organizer before using it like that.

[BaldoBeardo]

19 minutes ago, Mayple said:

RAW - yes.

RAI - Probably not.

Conclusion: Until it is further clarified, ask your opponent/tournament organizer before using it like that.

I get the RAI, but the FAQ went the opposite direction of supporting that view.

[Mayple]

42 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

I get the RAI, but the FAQ went the opposite direction of supporting that view.

For convenience sake, and for the benefit of people looking at this thread in the future, would you mind copy+pasting the FAQ in question? My memory isn't super clear on what the exact wording of the FAQ was.

[Double Misfire]

1 hour ago, Mayple said:

For convenience sake, and for the benefit of people looking at this thread in the future, would you mind copy+pasting the FAQ in question? My memory isn't super clear on what the exact wording of the FAQ was.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age_of_sigmar_chaos_en-2.pdf

Page 5, bottom of the first column.  

[Mayple]

Just now, Double Misfire said:

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age_of_sigmar_chaos_en-2.pdf

Page 5, bottom of the first column.  

Well. Then there's nothing that goes against the double deceiver combo  That's pretty strong. 

[Kugane]

I actually pointed this combo out a few months ago when I was exploring a pure Eshin list. After discussing it on the forum a bit, in summary, we pretty much came to these conclusions: 

Pros:

-Deathrunner as a general means you can use your command ability twice each turn, since both models count as a general

-Artifacts apply twice

-Deathrunners are naturally quite resilient to incoming fire with their smoke bombs ability

Cons:

-In practice, Skaven are cowards and not having the Grey Seer's command ability to stop them from fleeing, even with the -2 Hit, you will be losing a lot of guys to battleshock.

-Because you will lose 1 twin the moment the Deathrunner attacks, you are pretty much forced to keep him out of combat the entire game.

-If your Deathrunnerr gets killed, you may lose both at once.

 

TL;DR:

A viable option is to keep you grey seer general, but give your Deathrunner a crown of conquest for Inspiring Presence spam

[shadowgra]

Or just not playing skaven and going for murderhost, stormfiends or whatever

This thing is really strong, no doubt about it

[Uveron]

1 hour ago, Kugane said:

-In practice, Skaven are cowards and not having the Grey Seer's command ability to stop them from fleeing, even with the -2 Hit, you will be losing a lot of guys to battleshock.

If you are being very cheesy, you dont run this with a Skaven force. 

I am currently thinking some type of Nurgle force, Or even a Slaves Cav List. 

[shadowgra]

Nurgle could do it with daemons. There are almost no benefits in running a daemon as general, so a completely wasted turn for the opponent is really cool

[Flood]

5 hours ago, Kugane said:

I actually pointed this combo out a few months ago when I was exploring a pure Eshin list. After discussing it on the forum a bit, in summary, we pretty much came to these conclusions: 

Pros:

-Deathrunner as a general means you can use your command ability twice each turn, since both models count as a general

-Artifacts apply twice

-Deathrunners are naturally quite resilient to incoming fire with their smoke bombs ability

Cons:

-In practice, Skaven are cowards and not having the Grey Seer's command ability to stop them from fleeing, even with the -2 Hit, you will be losing a lot of guys to battleshock.

-Because you will lose 1 twin the moment the Deathrunner attacks, you are pretty much forced to keep him out of combat the entire game.

-If your Deathrunnerr gets killed, you may lose both at once.

 

TL;DR:

A viable option is to keep you grey seer general, but give your Deathrunner a crown of conquest for Inspiring Presence spam

But isnt having a the squishy grey seer with 5 wounds and a 5+ save as your general risky ? I feel like its better to have something like a warbringer with more wounds and a better save as general. But then youre right everyone is running to battle shock. Its just i keep hearing people say dont take a squishy low wound character as your general, but then others say the grey seer is essential to battleshock. Sounds contradictory. 

[Kugane]

14 minutes ago, Flood said:

But isnt having a the squishy grey seer with 5 wounds and a 5+ save as your general risky ? I feel like its better to have something like a warbringer with more wounds and a better save as general. But then youre right everyone is running to battle shock. Its just i keep hearing people say dont take a squishy low wound character as your general, but then others say the grey seer is essential to battleshock. Sounds contradictory. 

Both statements are true actually, the only issue with Skaven is lack of a better options I'd say, however, with a Deathrunner as general you pretty much have access to double inspiring presence, that will keep at least 2 units safe from battleshock, plus double cunning for -2 to hit, plus -1 to hit on ranged because of smoke bombs, all in all, creates a pretty resilient general I suppose opposed to the grey seer.

I think I will try running this list the coming weeks and see how that goes:

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders

Deathrunner (120) - General - Command Trait : Cunning Deceiver (double inspiring/cunning)

Verminlord Deceiver (320) - Artefact : Crown of Conquest (another wizard that can also cast inspiring, preferably on the gutter runners)

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (160) - Runestaff (reroll hit, wound and save rolls of 1)

Units

40 x Clanrats (200) -Rusty Spear (Battleline)

40 x Clanrats (200) -Rusty Spear (Battleline)

10 x Bloodreavers (70) -Reaver Blades (Battleline filler)

20 x Gutter Runners (200) (interfere with enemy ranged turn 1)

3 x Warplock Jezzails (140) (-2 rend)

1 x Warp Grinder Weapon Team (100) (Stormfiend's Uber)

3 x Stormfiends (300) (Warpfire projectors)

6 x Rat Swarms (180) (They have bravery 10, so perfect to sit on objectives without worrying about battleshock)

Reinforcement Points (0) Total: 1990 / 2000 Allies: 0 / 400 Leaders: 3/6 Battlelines: 5 (3+) Behemoths: 1/4 Artillery: 1/4

[Naflem]

On 11/24/2017 at 8:00 AM, Mayple said:

RAW - yes.

RAI - Probably not.

Conclusion: Until it is further clarified, ask your opponent/tournament organizer before using it like that.

I don't know, RAI seems pretty clear that they're only stopping things from stacking on a case by case basis...

[Naflem]

On 11/26/2017 at 10:25 AM, Kugane said:

Both statements are true actually, the only issue with Skaven is lack of a better options I'd say, however, with a Deathrunner as general you pretty much have access to double inspiring presence, that will keep at least 2 units safe from battleshock, plus double cunning for -2 to hit, plus -1 to hit on ranged because of smoke bombs, all in all, creates a pretty resilient general I suppose opposed to the grey seer.

I think I will try running this list the coming weeks and see how that goes:

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders

Deathrunner (120) - General - Command Trait : Cunning Deceiver (double inspiring/cunning)

Verminlord Deceiver (320) - Artefact : Crown of Conquest (another wizard that can also cast inspiring, preferably on the gutter runners)

 

I'm not sure that is says that you get two command abilities, just two artifacts and traits.  I could equally see it as "you get your command ability once, as the warscroll is basically your general, but you can target it wherever you want."  Also is the crown of conquest on the Deathrunner maybe better, at least you'd have two chances of the 5-up roll for an extra inspiring presence. 

[Kugane]

22 minutes ago, Naflem said:

I'm not sure that is says that you get two command abilities, just two artifacts and traits.  I could equally see it as "you get your command ability once, as the warscroll is basically your general, but you can target it wherever you want."  Also is the crown of conquest on the Deathrunner maybe better, at least you'd have two chances of the 5-up roll for an extra inspiring presence. 

I kind of assumed from the FAQ that each Deathrunner gets the artifact + command ability, which makes me believe that each model can do its own command ability, and in cases of him having a crown of conquest + cunning deceiver, I would assume you could do Inspiring Presence once per model (so twice total), as well as Cunning Deceiver twice in 1 turn. Thats how I have been benefitting from my Deathrunner regardless, perhaps I'm doing it wrong haha.

I wish Games-Workshop wrote down their rules with less guess-work and more to the point rather than "Do these apply? Yes.".

I would have loved something along the lines of:

If a Deathrunner has an artifact or command trait, both the Deathrunner and its Illusionary Twin can use and/or benefit from these in the same turn.

"Apply" simply is too vague in my opinion.

[Mayple]

3 hours ago, Naflem said:

I don't know, RAI seems pretty clear that they're only stopping things from stacking on a case by case basis...

I know as my later post suggests, I was already convinced of this

[Naflem]

6 hours ago, Kugane said:

I kind of assumed from the FAQ that each Deathrunner gets the artifact + command ability, which makes me believe that each model can do its own command ability, and in cases of him having a crown of conquest + cunning deceiver, I would assume you could do Inspiring Presence once per model (so twice total), as well as Cunning Deceiver twice in 1 turn. Thats how I have been benefitting from my Deathrunner regardless, perhaps I'm doing it wrong haha.

Well, I'm not sure, the FAQ talks about the artifact and command trait... so I suppose anything else, including command ability, takes some level of interpretation. 

[Kugane]

On 28-11-2017 at 11:55 PM, Naflem said:

Well, I'm not sure, the FAQ talks about the artifact and command trait... so I suppose anything else, including command ability, takes some level of interpretation. 

Indeed. Oh well, Skaven as a whole needs something along the lines of Strength in Numbers like Skryre has. then people don't need to search for these kind of cheesy plays lol.

[Mayple]

18 hours ago, Kugane said:

Indeed. Oh well, Skaven as a whole needs something along the lines of Strength in Numbers like Skryre has. then people don't need to search for these kind of cheesy plays lol.

You hit the nail on the head there I have a feeling it won't be too long.

[Kugane]

9 hours ago, Mayple said:

You hit the nail on the head there I have a feeling it won't be too long.

Thank you! :) I sent this suggestion to GW recently. Also to change Clanrats to have the ability to swap their keyword to "Eshin" "Verminus" "Skryre" "Pestilence", etc, similar to how Chaos Knights work. Hopefully, they'll take the advice. Perhaps if more people requested this, they would actually make it happen.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

I recently discovered this sneak-sneak tactic but I have met some resistance.  Statements that I have to contend with are as follows: "Your general can only use one command trait a turn", "You can only have one general", "a command trait is just like a command ability"and my personal favorite "tell me in the rules where something like that stacks, nothing in the game gives a -2 anywhere".

Now unfortunately, the resistance to this ruling stems from others in these forums not believing this works, siding with the RAI side of things, using these forums as evidence to the cause. I have distilled this dilemma down to "what is a command trait?" and "Do I physically have two Generals on the field?" and "Is GW's default rules side with letting things stack (unless stated otherwise). Unfortunately there's very little literature on the command trait itself and the Deathrunner's ability is excitingly unique.

"If your army has an allegiance and your general is a HERO, you can give them a command trait in addition to their command abilities." - GH2017 pg 116

"Q: Are the effects of multiple duplicate spells and abilities stackable against the target? A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise." - Rules FAQ 1.4 pg 6

"Q: If a Skaven Deathrunner is your general, or has an artefact of power or a command trait, do these things apply to its illusionary twin? A: Yes." - Chaos FAQ  1.4 pg 5

If you have any suggestions, I am best helped using citations of stuff you've read yourself. Ideally one of you is a TO and I can quote ya. Even better if someone can find me a battle report that would be great. I'm tired of running around in circles with my local TO before our next AOS league. Thanks ahead of time for any advice. 

 

[Mayple]

To me, it is clear that it can be used that way. GW themselves said that command traits/artifacts and such apply to both twins. Look at Hosts of Slaanesh for comparison - one of their options allow for three generals, with a built in range limitation. Here, we get (if one wants) two generals, until the decoy is revealed. It makes sense.

Whoever is saying you can use a command ability/trait once really needs to cite some sources. A general can not use his command ability more than once per turn, but in this case there are two separate generals, so you'd resolve their abilities individually.

In other words: when the rules say 'A general can use his command ability in the hero phase' or in the case of some command traits 'in the hero phase, pick a unit within x' (lord of war) - those apply per general.

Open to factual counterpoints.

 

 

*I used to think this was not possible, so I do see where they're coming from. However, presuming that the RAI in this case is something else than RAW is faulty due to GW themselves supporting the duplication effect of the clones, specifically pointing to artifacts/command traits.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Mayple said:

To me, it is clear that it can be used that way. GW themselves said that command traits/artifacts and such apply to both twins. Look at Hosts of Slaanesh for comparison - one of their options allow for three generals, with a built in range limitation. Here, we get (if one wants) two generals, until the decoy is revealed. It makes sense.

Whoever is saying you can use a command ability/trait once really needs to cite some sources. A general can not use his command ability more than once per turn, but in this case there are two separate generals, so you'd resolve their abilities individually.

In other words: when the rules say 'A general can use his command ability in the hero phase' or in the case of some command traits 'in the hero phase, pick a unit within x' (lord of war) - those apply per general.

Open to factual counterpoints.

 

 

*I used to think this was not possible, so I do see where they're coming from. However, presuming that the RAI in this case is something else than RAW is faulty due to GW themselves supporting the duplication effect of the clones, specifically pointing to artifacts/command traits.

Whait! does this mean that I can use the command ability “inspiring presence for times in a row with the crown of conquest?