SwampHeart

Don't get me in trouble here for wrongly labeling someone's event but I think it was maybe EGGS, Blackout, or Facehammer (again I'm not 100% I just know it was one of the bigger UK events last year). That said it doesn't appear to be in the pack for those events this year - I think it was an early 'summoning too strong' check that was being used before the edition matured a bit.

I think he's getting at the fact that some tournaments don't allow you to do this. Some tournaments require a specific 'summoning pool' of models and you aren't allowed to use dead models as a part of that pool.

You understand mechanically how summoning works but its very clear you don't understand how it works tactically. I understand this is a language barrier concern but I mean to say you are using summoning poorly - not that you don't know the rules for it. That said this isn't an argument worth continuing as you have a position that you don't wish to change and I'm not going to rehash the same argument you've had with actual tournament winning BoC players from FB. Think what you like about our summoning - I'm not going to try and change your mind anymore.

You have 2 choices when using Brass Despoilers. You can either play the army as Beasts of Chaos with Beasts of Chaos allegiance abilities (Herdstone, Frays, spells, etc.) or you can play the army as Blades of Khorne using Blades of Khorne allegiance abilities (Judgements, Bloodtithe, artifacts, etc.). If you choose to play the army as Beasts of Chaos you may not take a Bloodsecrator as he is not a legal ally for BoC. If you choose to play the army as BoK you may since he is a legal unit selection in a Blades of Khorne army.

You absolutely don't. Summoning is a situational ability and to try an evaluate it on a point for point basis is an abject failure. If you spend 150 points to summon a 60 point Ungor unit that takes an objective in Better Part of Valor and burns that objective for the win it doesn't matter how many points it cost to buy. Because, as above, you're attempting to assign a points value to a situational use ability. Some games summoning is a clutch ability that can win the board position and in some games it does very little. The idea that you think you should always be getting X points for Y investment is flawed thinking - you absolutely cannot properly value the game output of BoC summoning because it is flexible and changes from game to game.

Feel the same way about here as everyone on FB does. You don't understand how to use BoC summoning so it seems really bad to you because you're evaluating a point for point summoning and not understanding the tactical value of adding units in as needed in specific spots.

Unfortunately you've taken spells you don't qualify for. Those spells require you to be a Daemon and obviously Shamans and Dragon Ogres are not. You cannot use the Underworlds warband in a Depraved Drove. The Depraved Drove looks for a 'Great Bray Shaman' not a GREAT BRAY SHAMAN. The Warband includes the later but isn't the former - effectively the difference here is in unit vs. keywords.

You cannot. He does have the Great Bray Shaman keyword but the battalions don't look for Keywords they look for units. The only exception to this is Phantasmagoria which just looks for Heroes.

Not sure - I know LLV does all the stats work and maybe he's been tied up lately?

If we're picking different game systems' LoS rules to use I vote for KoW. Everything is height categorized - keeps things super simple and clear for the sake of LoS blocking.

We play ME during our weeknight games sometimes - its great for my guys who can't get to the shop early enough to get a solid 2k game in. Plus we can get more use out of the available space during that time. That said our tournaments are and will continue to be 2k going forward. I personally dislike ME - it has some significant balance issues that are exploitable (also I'm not having this conversation again, if you disagree that's fine). I also far prefer playing with all my toys, I particularly like monsters/other big units and its rare to be able to effectively use one in ME so basically I don't get to play with the models that inspire me. Overall as a club organizer its a good format for getting new people involved, and as a tournament player personally its a format that does nothing to excite me.

They cannot, the only other spells you'd have possible access to are any applicable Realm Spells and Endless Spells you've purchased.

I run 2 Contorted Epitomes - hands down the best choice I've made since I started with the book. But I'm also a diehard Depraved Drove player where having access to a 2nd net for HF is clutch.

@T10 what are you even arguing about? Are you asking if this is how this works in the rules or did you make this thread to say it shouldn't work this way? The rules are fairly clear in this case but I get the sense that what you're driving at is you disagree with this as a concept rather than having a rules question.

Not sure I'm following your point. I didn't say that everyone who plays ITC tournaments uses ITC missions, just that people who are used to ITC missions are so used to them that they assume they're the default.

They get any bonuses for <Chaos Slaanesh> but not from <Hedonite> dependent buffs. The key being Euphoric Killers (exploding 6s) applies to all <Chaos Slaanesh> models which the beastmen are (assuming you take the depraved drove).

I don't have a specific list for DoK (almost always practicing with some iteration of a take all comers list). That said my current list I've been using for the past 10 or so games is: Against DoK I generally try to play a little cagey, both armies are fast and like to hit very hard. I usually make sure I keep the Bestigors firmly inside one of the Eptiome's bubbles unless I'm going for a hard early swing. Wyches, even with all their extra saves don't enjoy being hit first by full strength HoS Bestigors. My end goal is usually to trade Bestigors for a wych unit while I use the Keeper and the masque to work on bullying another and then using as much of my spell casting as I can to keep pressure on their heroes.

Most people who like ITC missions like ITC missions because its all they play. They don't actually care about the missions so much as they just play all ITC format all the time.

DoK is almost exclusively why I take Wheels of Excruciaton - it is such a potent spell against DoK and especially their support heroes.

Assuming you're a noob this is true. Assuming you're a competent general it isn't.

But you're still counting Skaven as a summoning army (1 model) and IDK as a summoning army (one niche build to return slain models). Neither of those armies actually summon anything of any value. Unless you've decided that the ability to possibly add any model (back) to the table is summoning and then its such a wide berth of options that it is entirely irrelevant to discuss.

That's counter intuitive to the narrative he's trying to push so of course he isn't going to regard that.

Unfortunately without an actual redesign of the book it won't matter. If we're looking at viable fixes that can be slotted into an FAQ style update there isn't much that can be done to reduce the reliance on heroes. Its called HoS for a reason - Heroes of Slaanesh.

DP costs per summon need to increase, that's about it.

Not even close, a keeper has 6, possibly 7 attacks (depending on equipment option) with no built in re-rolls and no rend better than a -2. A KoS is only damage viable for its points cost when it uses its CA on itself.